Lasses Dream Build

[Lasse]

Thank you

Anyone else with experiences of Seriatopora in the wild. Or any other type of branching coral. Have anyone seen any differences in growth pattern for these types of corals depending on the depth they live ?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

Spectrum does matter, at least for the Porites corals I used in experiments. Red light (generated by LEDs) is best at promoting photosynthesis but it is a double-edged sword. The protective xanthophyll cycle is induced at much later than seen with blue light even the PAR values are more or less equal. This may be the reason red light is known to control zooxanthellate density/chlorophyll content. Still a lot of work to be done in this area, so a word of caution - use red light sparingly.

that is a good point. There is a very nice work showing how blue light inducing but red not(is it yours?), the protecting xanthophyll-cycle. So I think red light can bleach corals, BUT, it is maybe a matter of a quote or relationsship: With enough blue light at same time, we induce the xantopyll cycle and then the coral stands the amount of red light..?. Or what do you think? I think too much red light in companion with too less blue, is hazard.

Jonas

 

[JonasRoman]

There is one thing I do not fully understand why you wants to make a white light through RGB part. I understand the theoretical things but have some conciderations:

1) A white light which is NOT composed of (almost)all wavelengths (like it is from a MHI, sun, a very good phosphorus coated led with high CRI), is only fooling the eye. If you in the tank(and you will have) illuminated with RGB-white light have colors outside these three wavelengths(RGB), these colors will not be correct displayed to your eyes. For instance a yellow tang can impossible be yellow as the light lack the yellow wavelength! The light itself can look yellow from RGB if you have a certain ratio between RGB, but still the reflected light from the yellow object can never be yellow! The color we see is a reflection of wavelengths-content, so the yellow fish will in RGB-white light be something else, probably more orange. So the CRI of the RGB light is bad. Do we think that is good? Isn't the goal to have a reef looking for what it is?...and that leads me to the second concideration
2) The fluorescens is as Lasse says not visible when we have yellow wavelength in the light. But what is the problem with that? In nature we do not see the fluorescence of that reason, as sun contains a lot of this yellow as we know. I do not understand why "we" wants to induce an unnatural look? Ofcours we can induce fluorescence, that is not difficult. Just put 100% on blue channel and dim down the yellowcontaining( read white led)...but why? I can not see this as an argument for skipping white diods.

I can see benefits with including some white diods of 2 reasons
1) We increase the CRI, as we induce yellow AND actually all wavelengths between blue and yellow, including a lot of blue. We use the physical law that blue light+ yellow light=white to the eyes. If we to this add some more selective channels like blue but most important red(as the is lacking in white leds) , we have actually a CRI near 100%, and a very natural MHI-like light. I think most producer think in that way, as there is hardly no light´s out there anymore with only the RGB-thinkning.
2) The phosphorus coated white diods are improving an itself getting higher and higher cri. And we can keep the yellow tang yellow and not orange.


The light have not only the biological effect, that is easy, we know exact the absorption of chlorophyll a and c, and some other pigments...but it also have the estetical effect to correct show you the true color, and there the RGB is not a good choice, unless you complement it with more channels...but then we are not taking to RGB anymore, AND besides that, it is difficult as far as I have understood to construct diods with narrow yellow spectra. Maybe that is the reason why the RGB-fixture I have heard about incorporated amber and not yellow??

I can admit that MY light have too many white diods, so according to my opinion they have gone too far. I can not run these 4 white diods/cluster at 100%, and therefore looses quite much of the total effect from the lamp. I would like to have a light with more economical distribution, with the efforts on the photosynthesis, and the some small adding of white leds to get the correct CRI.

With this said, I think you thoughts and experiments with far red is very interesting, and inspiring, and also like the way your aquarium looks like...very natural, despite the RGB;-).....


/Jonas Roman

 

[Dana Riddle]

that is a good point. There is a very nice work showing how blue light inducing but red not(is it yours?), the protecting xanthophyll-cycle. So I think red light can bleach corals, BUT, it is maybe a matter of a quote or relationsship: With enough blue light at same time, we induce the xantopyll cycle and then the coral stands the amount of red light..?. Or what do you think? I think too much red light in companion with too less blue, is hazard.

Jonas

Tim Wijgere published his work recently and I believe it was part of his research when developing the Philip's coral light. This confirms what Kinzie saw decades ago in Hawaii, as well as my meager efforts (see here:)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/5/aafeature
This is my current opinion (and more work is needed...): Intensity of red light matters. But it is not that simple. There appears to be a ratio of red to blue light that should not be exceeded.

 

[Tristren]

Anyone else with experiences of Seriatopora in the wild. Or any other type of branching coral. Have anyone seen any differences in growth pattern for these types of corals depending on the depth they live ?

Sincerely Lasse

This Australian Institute of Marine Science site (http://coral.aims.gov.au/factsheet.jsp?speciesCode=0342) has examples of different growth patterns. It notes that
"Colonies with short thick branches are normally found in habitats exposed to wave action."

If you are seeing difference just under lighting in tanks with similar flow, could it be that the coral is interpreting the different spectrum as a different depth under water, and adjusting growth accordingly?

Could be a good test for @Ryanbrs with his multiple control tanks. Two higher flow, two lower flow, one in each set with the different spectrums. I gather the growth patterns show up quickly enough to to be practical for a test video. That would be a good starting point for looking at spectrum if it shows that it clearly (probably) can have an impact on the growth pattern and form of corals...


Cheers, Tony

 

[Tristren]

Spectrum does matter, at least for the Porites corals I used in experiments. Red light (generated by LEDs) is best at promoting photosynthesis but it is a double-edged sword. The protective xanthophyll cycle is induced at much later than seen with blue light even the PAR values are more or less equal. This may be the reason red light is known to control zooxanthellate density/chlorophyll content. Still a lot of work to be done in this area, so a word of caution - use red light sparingly.

So this is saying that it is easier to bleach or damage corals with lower levels of red light vs blue light, because the corals' have natural sun protection that is activated primarily by blue light levels? And presumably that process is balanced and designed to work under full spectrum sunlight, absorbing as much energy as it can use but shutting down when it gets excessive?

I don't want to hijack Lasse's thread so is there another conversation where this is all covered?


Cheers, Tony

 

[JonasRoman]

Tim Wijgere published his work recently and I believe it was part of his research when developing the Philip's coral light. This confirms what Kinzie saw decades ago in Hawaii, as well as my meager efforts (see here:)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/5/aafeature
This is my current opinion (and more work is needed...): Intensity of red light matters. But it is not that simple. There appears to be a ratio of red to blue light that should not be exceeded.

So I was not totaly wrong when guessing the ratio b/r is important? I think that in turn can explains why some experiment with red lights that Lasse is involved in, have not damaged the coral. They have enough blue at same time?

 

[Dana Riddle]

So I was not totaly wrong when guessing the ratio b/r is important? I think that in turn can explains why some experiment with red lights that Lasse is involved in, have not damaged the coral. They have enough blue at same time?

I, too, do not want to hijack Lasse's thread. I'll start a new one.

 

[Alfrareef]

Thank you

This pipefish has been in the display for 2 weeks now. I got 2 of them 3 weeks ago - they are bred in Sri Lanka and are used to dead food. But they was small when I got them so I put them in my fuge there I could feed them well. There is also a production of pods in the fuge. The one you see in the video just escape to the display and it’s impossible to catch him/her. I was sorry because I thought that it maybe did not manage to survive – but I was wrong. Now it’s moving around everywhere in the aquarium and the flow seems not to concern him/she. The second is still in the fuge and I see it during nights when the light is on at the fuge. Because these should be used of dead food – I dare to take a chance with them and as I see it now – it´s work very well

Sincerely Lasse

You have a survivor!

 

[Lasse]

No problems for me if you discuss this in my thread - because I´m very interested of these questions. But - for the future - maybe it’s better to have the discussion in a own thread - easier to find if it not imbedded in a 100 page build thread (now you know may intentions :)

To Jonas question of the RGB trick. I have not have any tank that looks as good as my do for the moment. For the moment – I do not think that we (or rather the corals, algae and plants) need the wavelengths between 500 and 600 for growth if we have enough of wavelengths in the blue and red sector. One exception – green wavelengths. These as been shown to have more importance for plant grows than we earlier thoughts. In the ocean – green penetrate the water rather good. Its a rather good chance that green can have some importance’s for corals too.

Why do not use a simple trick in order to have a good looking aquaria – without a heavy blue tint :)

@Dana Riddle Have you a link to the new thread?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

You have a survivor!

I hope I have two. I let the second out from the fuge yesterday - however haven´t spot him/her yet

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I have spoted the second - it was behind my deocoration :) :) :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Fudsey]

Here ya go @Lasse

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/red-light-good-or-bad-for-corals.333157/

 

[Lasse]

Here ya go @Lasse

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/red-light-good-or-bad-for-corals.333157/

Thanks

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This Australian Institute of Marine Science site (http://coral.aims.gov.au/factsheet.jsp?speciesCode=0342) has examples of different growth patterns. It notes that
"Colonies with short thick branches are normally found in habitats exposed to wave action."
Cheers, Tony

And thats normally rather swallow - it´s rais the question circulation or light :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

No problems for me if you discuss this in my thread - because I´m very interested of these questions. But - for the future - maybe it’s better to have the discussion in a own thread - easier to find if it not imbedded in a 100 page build thread (now you know may intentions :)

To Jonas question of the RGB trick. I have not have any tank that looks as good as my do for the moment. For the moment – I do not think that we (or rather the corals, algae and plants) need the wavelengths between 500 and 600 for growth if we have enough of wavelengths in the blue and red sector. One exception – green wavelengths. These as been shown to have more importance for plant grows than we earlier thoughts. In the ocean – green penetrate the water rather good. Its a rather good chance that green can have some importance’s for corals too.

Why do not use a simple trick in order to have a good looking aquaria – without a heavy blue tint :)

@Dana Riddle Have you a link to the new thread?

Sincerely Lasse

You have a point Lasse;-)..why not try to do what we can for enhance the looking...everything is a matter of taste..I personally prefer the sun-like look and thus more and more like the whitish light. But understand your arguments.

I think we know that also in zooxanthelle there is some absorbance of some importance also in green, yellow, orange spectra. The article by Dana R in AA have some nice graphs showing that. I am just afraid your may miss some of these wavelengths when using only RGB?

I will post the article but I am sure you have red it.

I like your setup and curiousity concerning light questions and really like the ideas concerning far red etc. I have one theory that if a coral is getting a lot of red it “believes” it is on shallow water as this mimic that conditions. Maybe that can trigger some part of the genomes to grow in a more flat pattern.

And by the way, very nice looking tank. I will soon visit you if you wants:)
Would be an honour:)

Jonas

Include 2 pictures from the article showing that we maybe have some benefits of all wavelengths.

 

[Lasse]

Yes - I have read that article - but we are talking about two different things. The photosynthesis is depends on quantum physics - it means that there is a certain energy level that´s needed. Energy level in this case correspond to a certain wavelength. All other has to be transported to this certain energy packet. Different pigment has different capability to make this transfer – e.g. different energy loses. With LED – we can concentrate the wavelengths there the transforming mechanism is most effective – i.e. at the peaks of the different chlorophylls (or other effective pigment) Green is a (around 525 nm) is a special case. In terrestrial plants – it has been shown that green penetrate the canopy and can be effective in photosynthesis there the red and blue radiation already has been absorbed (at least – that’s the way I have understand this – I can be wrong)

I understand your theory about far red – but my theory is the opposite. Far red – in my theory – makes the coral bee more slender. That has been proven with terrestrial plants!

You are welcome whenever you want



Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I have as I have write before observed a rather strange growth pattern for my birds nest. In my aquarium they become very compact and with a lot of branches. I have taken frags three times from an aquarium there they are more slender. Today I took 3 pcs of frags from a colony that is growing in a slender way – se picture. I took some branches from the right part of the colony. The colony has grown below a LED fixture with much of red light in it.

​

My fixture is also run with more red light than common in the reef hobby. The reason why I took 3 new frags is that I want to see if they change growth pattern in my aquaria. If they do – I will start an experiment in order to try to understand what’s happen. I have some theories that I will test.

In the pictures you see three different frags placed in different locations in my aquaria. If they will survive – I will take a picture of them every week.

No 1 left

​

No2 midle

​

No 3 right

​

I also took two frags of Seriatopora caliendrum. Also rather slender in their home aquaria

​

Sincerely Lasse

For update about red light and corals - please https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/red-light-good-or-bad-for-corals.333157/#post-4146025

 

[Dana Riddle]

I have as I have write before observed a rather strange growth pattern for my birds nest. In my aquarium they become very compact and with a lot of branches. I have taken frags three times from an aquarium there they are more slender. Today I took 3 pcs of frags from a colony that is growing in a slender way – se picture. I took some branches from the right part of the colony. The colony has grown below a LED fixture with much of red light in it.

​

My fixture is also run with more red light than common in the reef hobby. The reason why I took 3 new frags is that I want to see if they change growth pattern in my aquaria. If they do – I will start an experiment in order to try to understand what’s happen. I have some theories that I will test.

In the pictures you see three different frags placed in different locations in my aquaria. If they will survive – I will take a picture of them every week.

No 1 left

​

No2 midle

​

No 3 right

​

I also took two frags of Seriatopora caliendrum. Also rather slender in their home aquaria

​

Sincerely Lasse

For update about red light and corals - please https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/red-light-good-or-bad-for-corals.333157/#post-4146025

Very nice Lasse!

 

[Lasse]

Thank you

Sincerely Lasse