Let's get serious about PHOSPHATE

ZoWhat

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I don't have a full understanding WHERE phosphates come from, other from food sources where phosphates are added as a preservative at the processing plant...

Let's make a LIST OF KNOWN PHOSPHATE items that make it into ones tank and lead to elevated levels of testable PO4

Phosphates coming from WHERE?

FOOD:
* Fish Food? which ones or types? pellets, flakes, frozen, freeze dried?
* Coral Food? which ones?
* Food additives like vitamins or garlic?

WATER SOURCES:
* potentially from one's RODI water?

DOSING:
* Dosing elements like calc, alk mag?
* From Kalk powder?
* Liquid additives from SeaChem, Brightwell and the like?
* powder additives?
* Liquid items like nopox, vibrant and the like?

ANY OTHER SOURCES?

There are only so many things, limited things, that go into my tank daily, weekly, monthly. Trying to understand why is 0.5 or lower PO4 is a CONSTANT struggle.

Do I have gremlins dosing po4 at 3:30am?



.
 
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G Santana

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Definitely Gremlins. Always Gremlins.
Here he is, lol
Live and dead rock harbor a ton as well as the water you use if you don't have an RO unit or the filters need changing
ZomboMeme 21102021171714.jpg
 

hsosa

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I was just thinking about PO4 what the ideal is for a SPS dominant tank. from what I read the ranges are from .05 to keep it under .5 I also read that if u have algae just don't test P04 because its useless u know u have p04. most everything that you Put in your tank has phosphates. food additives etc. I try to keep my p04 under .2. today I tested Hannah mine sits at p04.22 which makes sense since ive increased my feedings since this last Sunday I added a lemon peel angel and Im happy to say she is eating ! my last reading was at .11 .
 

dhnguyen

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Phosphate can come in from anywhere but the most obvious and usual suspects are food and source water.
Anything you are dosing the tank with may also contain phosphate . An example is phytoplankton which is pretty much liquid fertilizer (phosphate and nitrate).
 

vetteguy53081

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The sea salt mix itself can be a cause as is the water source or even TDS of the water. Aged carbon can leach PO4 back into tank as it ages. Also decaying food and fish waste can be a contributor
 

redfishbluefish

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Any and all living things (or once living) is composed of a multitude of phosphate containing compounds. I'll mention but three that folks will know from their High School biology classes....

DNA - the backbone of DNA is composed of phosphate groups
Cell Membranes - containing phospholipids
ATP - the energy of cells....and that's TRI phosphate!
 
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ZoWhat

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No wonder failure rate in this hobby is so high. 127 processes all have to work deadon all at the same time.

Guess answer is to do a 25% WC every 12hrs, have a GFO reactor the size of a bathtub and only feed you fish from a thimble


.
 
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Ok so this post went no where. Expecting some great insight into hidden items that could be PO4 in disguise
 

Backreefing

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Don’t forget the dust that settles into your aquarium, from the air in your house can add . But that is small .
I have been reefing for 20 years and still aim learning. I for some reason never had high phosphate.??? But lately I’ve been amazed at how affective corals are at eliminating point of sale/nitrates. To the point that they may even strip the water so clean that they kill themselves ( happened to me lately)
If you have to much phosphate get a few peace’s dry rock as it acts as a sponge for phosphate at least for awhile. Or use gfo carefully, fudge , or even get a bunch of new corals .
I have a 37 gallon and I bought about 8 sps frags and the nutrients disappeared. To much so .
good luck
 
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Food is the primary source. Just about anything being added to a system potentially can be a source of phosphorus, whether it's living or dead or absorbs phosphorus or can have a biofilm on it.

Fig 4 from this paper: Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts
DIP DOP POP.jpg
Reason #47 to consider NOT to add eating machines like Tangs or Rabbit fish to overly stocked coral reefs

Just too hard to manage feeding those fish and keeping PO4 under 0.5
 

Timfish

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Reason #47 to consider NOT to add eating machines like Tangs or Rabbit fish to overly stocked coral reefs . . .

Yeah, but that opens up another can of worms if you don't have algae grazers . . .

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven
 
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ZoWhat

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Yeah, but that opens up another can of worms if you don't have algae grazers . . .

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven
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Garf

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Yeah, but that opens up another can of worms if you don't have algae grazers . . .

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven
Some of the reasons I stopped turbo charging my scrubber with CO2, in fact stopped using one all together.
 

Reefahholic

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I would say the 3 most common reasons why newer reefers struggle with Phosphate is bad source water, over feeding, and huge fish loads.

I can’t count the times where people refuse to buy an RODI unit. Or they feed way too much. Feeding needs to be measured and logged unless you have been in the game a while. Even if you have… it’s still a good idea to measure and track your daily feedings. Dumping random amounts of food usually doesn’t end well. :)
 

ilawis

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Beyond the items already mentioned above, phosphate can leach from your rocks. Depending upon the type of rock used, it can be anywhere from almost none to quite a bit.
I'm going to second this. the rock i have in my tank is from a fish only preditor tank as such it had a ton (and i mean a lot) of detritus on the old system as such the rock in my tank even though Ive washed it all out with clean water before putting it into my tank and it is leaching a massive amount of P04.
I'm trying to eliminate it when i can using a phosphate remover and growing chato (my refugium lights are not good so that's failing miserably but my regular checks are showing results well above what can be tested at a guess I'm around 4-5ppm - BUT i don't have any loss of life all fish are happy and healthy and all my corals are growing fast and i bought a SPS a 36 days ago that was all brown and it now has a nice green colour. it makes me think - is there more than one kind of P04?
(photo ending in 11 was just before going into my tank photo 38 was in for a day photo 20 was in for 28 days and showing colour)
 

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