lets talk about TBS sand & Biodiversity when stating a new system.

[Devaji]

Curious as to what u ended up with??? Deciding between TBS and Ocean Direct as well.

hey sorry I missed this.
I am still dragging my feet on this build for some reason.
"best practice" is to Qt sand and LR for 46 days in fish less tank @ 82-84F
that way you get the best of both worlds adding to the diversity and the QT benefits.

that said i did find TBS say this id was in 2022 tho so not sure if they have test again no not.

Here' s what I got for ya:
Speaking about live rock & sand harvested from our lease site in the Gulf of Mexico off Tarpon Springs that is transported submerged at all times and temporarily held in the Icehouse...according to Dr. Eli of AquaBiomics it has 0 parasites (Dinoflagellate responsible for Velvet, Ciliate responsible for Ich, Ciliate responsible for Brook, Ciliate responsible for Uronema, Monitpora eating Nudibranchs, Acropora eating flatworms, all 3 types of Gill Flukes Flatworms, Pyramidellidae snails, Apicomplexan parasite of claims/bivalves, Trichodina protozoan).
There is no need to qt fishless for 76 days if you buy TBS.

"The sample had DNA from a wide range of eukaryotic organisms, a community that looks similar to a reef tank community with a few differences. your list includes DNA from fish, corals, tunicates, bivalves, sponges, coralline algae, sea urchins, snails, sea cucumber, crabs, copepods, brittle stars, worms, and macro algae. Even though the sample gives us lots of data on the communities that include parasites (ciliates, dinos, amoeba, etc) none of the types we found in your sample are known parasites.
The lack of parasites in this sample is a nice result. I find one or more of the ciliates associated with Uronema in a lot of live rock so I'm always happy to find a clean rock tank. From the perspective of someone who tests and sells live rock as part of our business, this is a report I'd be happy with overall. Lots of desirable or at least typical parts of the reef community are present, and none of the parasites were detected."

As for keeping bacteria alive with ocean live sand and ocean live rock in a no fish system. Of course, bacteria can survive in that mini marine ecosystem with micro critters living and dying in the sand and in/on the rock. As long as there is good water quality, flowing, oxygenated and some light you should be good to go.


as i like the look of the special grade reef sand and not the TBS stuff I am thinking about adding 5lbs to the sump "fuge" area to make a cryptic zone.

I believe adding to to the DT would speed up the "seeding process"

anyone have feedback on that?

 

[RBarth]

No worries and thanks for the reply! I ordered some sand and waiting to the delivery at the end of the month. My tank is already established so no need to seed the tank however BRS did a very good video on TBS sand/rock. Conclusion: as close to insta-tank.

 

[Devaji]

No worries and thanks for the reply! I ordered some sand and waiting to the delivery at the end of the month. My tank is already established so no need to seed the tank however BRS did a very good video on TBS sand/rock. Conclusion: as close to insta-tank.

are you going to replace your sand or just add to it?

 

[RBarth]

I'm replacing. I do it every year for a new look.

 

[RBarth]

 

[gastone]

I started a tank about 20 years ago with a TBS kit, live rock and sand. As others have said, the rock is heavy, but I made it work. And dang is it loaded with life. I didn´t wait terribly long to add livestock, just after the die cycle from shipping. Probably not the best idea. Ended up with cirolanids isopods. That was fun to eradicate. I had to wait until the lights were out and they attached themselves to my premnas pair, net them, and carefully remove the isopods with tweezers. Fun times. Also ended up with a mantis that I never could catch. Little guy did not bother much, but he could have if he got significantly bigger. Like the rock and the diversity, but probably would not go that route again.

 

[EricR]

...
5. would using direct ocean sand bring in parasites? was thinking of only QTed fish for this build, from 2 trusted sources . would that defeat the whole process?
I will cycle the take for one month with out fish to let the mico biome get rolling and strong.

I don't know the likelihood of ocean sand bringing in fish parasites but I'm sure the potential exists.

Since you're planning 1 month without fish anyway, you could always just extend that a bit to whatever you consider acceptable "fallow" period to be ... 45 days at slightly elevated temperature, 60 days, etc. (Whatever you feel comfortable with)

 

[Devaji]

thanks brother I missed that one. I have always been a fan of biology AKA the natural way

I don't know the likelihood of ocean sand bringing in fish parasites but I'm sure the potential exists.

Since you're planning 1 month without fish anyway, you could always just extend that a bit to whatever you consider acceptable "fallow" period to be ... 45 days at slightly elevated temperature, 60 days, etc. (Whatever you feel comfortable with)

my thoughts too.

 

[Devaji]

anyone know if there is data on TBS sand VS ocean direct on biodiversity?

my guess would be the TBS has more but comes with some risks seems like the ocean direct stuff is like dosing bottled bac to the tank.

I in mind there is no sub. for real ocean LR the tank I set up years ago with it was the smoothest 1st year of a tank I have even had, just not a fan of the look of the rock and of course hitchhikers ect.
so I am trying to come up with a plan where I get the benefits with out the problems.

 

[RBarth]

TBS rock in the sump and aquascape with whatever u want.

Talking with TBS and how it's harvested and how quickly it had to go in ur tank...I don't think there's a real comparison between the two.

 

[LiverockRocks]

Our farm temps drop into the high 40s in winter and highest 80s all summer....if you are using 100% TBS no need to raise your tank temp to ward off disease/pathogens.
If you are buying bagged sand from a LFS, there should be no need to raise your tank temp to kill off organisms either.

 

[Devaji]

TBS rock in the sump and aquascape with whatever u want.

Talking with TBS and how it's harvested and how quickly it had to go in ur tank...I don't think there's a real comparison between the two.

so you think TBS rock has more biodiversity the there sand? I know both will work just wondering say 10# LS vs LR what would have more "power" to seed the tank with all the good stuff.

 

[Devaji]

Our farm temps drop into the high 40s in winter and highest 80s all summer....if you are using 100% TBS no need to raise your tank temp to ward off disease/pathogens.
If you are buying bagged sand from a LFS, there should be no need to raise your tank temp to kill off organisms either.

thanks for chiming in this topic. nice to see you around the reef!

I would love to ask you your option or thoughts.
what would be better to seed the tank with dry rock scape 10# of LS or 10# of LR both would be in the sump.

I am leaning towards the sand.

BTW leaning towards the 15# of live sand. any idea when it will be back in stock? have the seas been cray this year?

 

[RBarth]

It is my understanding that LR will trump LS.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

I recently went all live TBS rock. It was really great. you can see it in my build thread. lots of diversity.

 

[Ernie Mccracken]

What do we even mean with terms like biodiversity and biome? If you pluck live sand and rock straight out of the ocean, it's going to be full of pests, algae spores, and tons of different bacteria strains (good and bad).

If I was setting up a 10+ year display, I would bite the bullet and suffer through the first year of algae and dinos and whatever that comes with dry rock and selective seeding.

But for a typical hobbyist tank where we want fast results and are chucking in animals left and right, sure let's play the live land lottery.

 

[Spare time]

I don't know the likelihood of ocean sand bringing in fish parasites but I'm sure the potential exists.

Since you're planning 1 month without fish anyway, you could always just extend that a bit to whatever you consider acceptable "fallow" period to be ... 45 days at slightly elevated temperature, 60 days, etc. (Whatever you feel comfortable with)

That potential has to be extraordinarily low

 

[Devaji]

What do we even mean with terms like biodiversity and biome? If you pluck live sand and rock straight out of the ocean, it's going to be full of pests, algae spores, and tons of different bacteria strains (good and bad).

If I was setting up a 10+ year display, I would bite the bullet and suffer through the first year of algae and dinos and whatever that comes with dry rock and selective seeding.

But for a typical hobbyist tank where we want fast results and are chucking in animals left and right, sure let's play the live land lottery.

for me its not about fast. it more about creating a sustainable tank a piece of living art in my home.

I do see your point and thanks for adding to the discussion all point of view are welcome. but it has been shown time and time again that adding ocean LR/LS can and does help with the over all health of the tank.
after all we are trying to create that is the ocean in a box in out home.

but yes you are correct its not with out risk and or work to lower the risk hens this thread, for me and other to weight out the prons and cons and come to the "right" choose for each reefer.

 

[dangles]

Maybe you’ve already decided, but another option is Aquabiomics.

They test their sand for fish and coral parasites. They only sell small containers though. They don’t intend it to be the primary substrate, just a seed for the tank.

I used TBS sand for my recent build. I love it. They also say there’s no risk of fish parasites but I’m not sure how they verify that.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

for me its not about fast. it more about creating a sustainable tank a piece of living art in my home.

I do see your point and thanks for adding to the discussion all point of view are welcome. but it has been shown time and time again that adding ocean LR/LS can and does help with the over all health of the tank.
after all we are trying to create that is the ocean in a box in out home.

but yes you are correct its not with out risk and or work to lower the risk hens this thread, for me and other to weight out the prons and cons and come to the "right" choose for each reefer.

I personally have not experienced anything bad that would sway my decision. I had 3 aiptasia, 1 flat worm, a few murex snails. how hard is it to just "pluck" them out when you see them? if you're worried, place the rock in salt water only for a bit and see what crawls off before adding sand. other can chime in but I believe you will get ugly stages on all the dead rock and sand you place in there still. The live rock doesn't have the real estate to support as much as the dead rock does. Aiptasia is going to come in on corals still. I also would prefer not to look at an ugly tank and the amount of work scraping GHA and everything else off.