LFS Says this isnt Ich - Any ideas?

BWV

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Looking for some advice. Thanks in advance.
2 month old tank, Goby, Gramma B, Clown, Azure Damsel, 6 Snails, 1 Emerald crab, 3 Hermits, 1 Skunk Cleaner shrimp, 1 Toadstool, and some GSP.

I have this guy in a hospital tank (he's about 1-1/4" long Neon Goby). The damsel was picking on him, and at first I though bite marks, or scales lifted.. but then thought ich(k?) due to weakening from stress, and possibly toadstool from Petco (I did dip it in CoralMD).
He had a couple dots, they went away, then more came back 5 or 6 days later. I think its ich..

Started with Paraguard in the hospital tank, as I'm using some other Seachem stuff, and figured I'd stay with the same brand... 2 days, no change.. so started reading and went to LFS with a pic. Gramma had one small white dot, so he's there too.

Read a whole bunch of stuff about Paragaurd not working in saltwater, and talked with LFS folks, who concurred.. Paraguard is great for freshie ich, not at all effective with salties...

LFS team also says this is not ich, but a different parasite, do a freshwater dip... I have not done so yet.

I bought a copper test kit and some Cupramine. Changed 50% of my hospital tank water, and put in carbon to remove the remaining ParaGuard. (last dose 30hrs ago)
I'll do the Cupramine tomorrow night unless someone screams no...

Please let me know if you think this is ich
Please also let me know if I should do a fresh water dip before the Cupramine.
No signs in the main tank (13.5 fluval evo) .. I'm thinking of preventative meds with Kick-Ick or similar.. please share thoughts on that too

Things did seem to be going well. This is my fault..por judgement with the Azure (I thought they were supposed to be nicer) and, poor judgment with not quarantining new guys..

Water
25Nitrate NO3
0.025Nitrite NO2
9.75Alkalinity KH
8.15pH
0Ammonia NH3/NH4
400Calcium Ca
1395Magnesium Mg
0.25Phosphate PO4
1.024Specific Gravity
77.8Temp


Yesterday
1629856919697.png

Today
1629856863733.png
 

blaxsun

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It kind of looks like ich, but your fish also appears pretty chewed up. I have an azure damsel and he’s been a model citizen, but that isn’t to say that behaviour doesn’t diverge with specific individuals. My yellow belly damsel, on the other hand, was an absolute menace.

I had a velvet outbreak in my main display tank about a month back, and ended up using Polyp Lab Medic and an oversized UV to get it under control.

The fish that survived - even though severely stressed - were still actively eating and swimming.
 
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BWV

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I almost went with the PL Medic... I may still use some in the main tank as a preventative.
If the clown or damsel show any signs, I will go fallow. i will need to purchase and set up another small tank... my fish are small.. so maybe a 5(dont have a lot of room) or 10 to treat and then hotel them for the 80ish days.
I dont plan on more fish than i have (maybe one too many now..), and only plan on replacing cuc/inverts if they eat each other. I want to start with some more softies and some LPS after i get this under control.. so cant treat the display with any copper stuff
 

Jay Hemdal

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Looking for some advice. Thanks in advance.
2 month old tank, Goby, Gramma B, Clown, Azure Damsel, 6 Snails, 1 Emerald crab, 3 Hermits, 1 Skunk Cleaner shrimp, 1 Toadstool, and some GSP.

I have this guy in a hospital tank (he's about 1-1/4" long Neon Goby). The damsel was picking on him, and at first I though bite marks, or scales lifted.. but then thought ich(k?) due to weakening from stress, and possibly toadstool from Petco (I did dip it in CoralMD).
He had a couple dots, they went away, then more came back 5 or 6 days later. I think its ich..

Started with Paraguard in the hospital tank, as I'm using some other Seachem stuff, and figured I'd stay with the same brand... 2 days, no change.. so started reading and went to LFS with a pic. Gramma had one small white dot, so he's there too.

Read a whole bunch of stuff about Paragaurd not working in saltwater, and talked with LFS folks, who concurred.. Paraguard is great for freshie ich, not at all effective with salties...

LFS team also says this is not ich, but a different parasite, do a freshwater dip... I have not done so yet.

I bought a copper test kit and some Cupramine. Changed 50% of my hospital tank water, and put in carbon to remove the remaining ParaGuard. (last dose 30hrs ago)
I'll do the Cupramine tomorrow night unless someone screams no...

Please let me know if you think this is ich
Please also let me know if I should do a fresh water dip before the Cupramine.
No signs in the main tank (13.5 fluval evo) .. I'm thinking of preventative meds with Kick-Ick or similar.. please share thoughts on that too

Things did seem to be going well. This is my fault..por judgement with the Azure (I thought they were supposed to be nicer) and, poor judgment with not quarantining new guys..

Water
25Nitrate NO3
0.025Nitrite NO2
9.75Alkalinity KH
8.15pH
0Ammonia NH3/NH4
400Calcium Ca
1395Magnesium Mg
0.25Phosphate PO4
1.024Specific Gravity
77.8Temp


Yesterday
1629856919697.png

Today
1629856863733.png
That's ich, with some fin damage as well.

Don't bother with the Kick Ich. Your LFS was correct, Paraguard rarely works for ich. You should change the water in the QT and start dosing copper. You'll need a good copper test kit. Get the copper up to full dose in 24 hours. Don't add any dechlor or ammonia removers while dosing cupramine. Be sure to monitor the ammonia though - and you'll need to keep it below 0.25 ppm with water changes (redosing copper) or with bacteria in a bottle type products.

Jay
 

LeftyReefer

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yikes. Get those fish in copper right away. And as Jay said above, dose them up to therapeutic levels of copper ASAP.
All your fish will need to be treated and you will have to fallow your tank if you want to get rid of the ICH parasite. All your fish are now carrying it, whether they show signs or not.

You'll have to catch and treat all of them, so plan on having all your fish in QT for the entire fallow period.
 
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Thank you everyone. I was sure its ich... odd they said no.

I have Cupramine and a test kit, that goes in shortly.

Changed the water in the hospital last night, and ran carbon since (so 24hrs of carbon filtering)
I'm going to use mechanical (just floss) to filter while in treatment.

I do plan to monitor ammo and control with changes and a bacteria supplement (fluval)

My other fish show no signs. I do understand it is in there... in the gravel, in the water, and will never leave completely unless I go fallow.

As I only have a 1.5 gallon hospital, and no room for a larger QT (or even this one really) without domestic discord, I may try a "reef safe treatment" to deter the parasite, and some food vitamin soak to build up the other fish this time. (Management vs cure)
If/when it recurs (I know... and I am likely gonna kick myself...) I will figure out a way to go fallow with a large enough tank for the fish to get along for 3 months while my display chills out with the crabbies, shrimp, snails, and coral.

Gotta run, one of the crabbies is trying to eat my brand new Nassarius...

Thank you!!
 
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So.. after two days of Paraguard, and 24 hours of unmedicated tank water, he looks like this:
1629936248446.png

Guessin' the parasites ate their share and fell off...
Either way.. first dose of Cupramine in today.. we'll get it up to .5mg/L tomorrow
 

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So.. after two days of Paraguard, and 24 hours of unmedicated tank water, he looks like this:
1629936248446.png

Guessin' the parasites ate their share and fell off...
Either way.. first dose of Cupramine in today.. we'll get it up to .5mg/L tomorrow
Ich no doubt and response to treatment , but LFS says it isnt ich. . . . LOL.
paraguard isnt effective as copper product. Follow advice of Jay
 

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Appears like a combo of ich and fin rot from fungal infection. The paraguard probably cleared up the fungal infection although it looks like there's a bit left in the update pic. I'd say your copper treatment is a great choice too, may want to run it through a second course of paraguard after the copper treatment
 

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Absolutely! May want to give it a few days between meds to recover
 
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I do plan to ich manage... for now.(read on..)

So...
I am currently treating my fish with Cupramine, and will follow with a round of Paraguard.
(I'll be careful not to mix the two)

While I do that, I want to begin to treat the main tank to suppress any parasites.

I am considering the combined Ruby Reef Rally and Kick-Ich system for this purpose. Does anyone recommend a different or better product for this?

I do want to time it so that the main tank is under treatment when I put the fish back. I'll have the fish in clean, untreated water for a couple days before I put them back into them main.

Is this a good idea, or would I be better served to begin that treatment in the main tank at the time I put them back?
My thinking is that if I begin the main tank treatment a week or so before the fish return, that any free swimmers wont have fish to cling to, and will be in the water with the treatments, thus less likly to grab fish.


The eventual plan for irradication: (Likely driven sooner if the ich return...)
While the Fluval EVO 13.5 is nice... I do feel I made the mistake of too small a tank... it's only 10 gal of water, no room for error, and physically small.
With the size of my stand (30"w x15"d) and area I can keep it in, I believe I'll go with a 29 (open to suggestions that will fit on top of that stand..) I had a 29 with my freshies for 10 years and liked the size.
I'll build a custom in tank sump (along the lines of the EVO/Redsea stuff, but with suitable pump sizing (probably 2)) and a rack system for media more relavant to marine/reef life than the foam block.
I'll set up the new tank, placing my rocks, sand, crabs, shrimp, snails in there, and leave that fallow for 80 days or so while the fish are in the EVO in another room with just some PVC fitting hides in a bare glass tank. I'll treat them in there with Cupramine and then Paraguard before they go into the new tank.
 
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Well... the Clown got what looks like Brooklynella or Velvet and died.. he went from fine, to swimming slowly, to covered in tiny white dots(not like the other two..think confectionery vs granular sugar) or scales lifted maybe in about 6 hours time, then dead then next morning.
Guessing maybe velvet? He's been fine in the main tank since July 5th and was doing great... I dunno now.
Could Brook show up 60plus days after he was introduced and doing great?
1630677989103.png


The Damsel has been fine the whole time without sign, but one scale looks odd...
1630678162543.png

...so he's now in the 1.5 gallon hospital now with the Gramma and Goby in .5mg/l Cupramine... Just in case... So that tank is now way too small to keep them ok. Everyone is eating and looks fine. (I've been juggling small water changes to keep ammo down, and treated the new water to the right copper lever before swapping it so the parasites dont get a chance..)

I scrubbed the top rocks (thinking, but not seeing maybe Dinos?I did have some green algae(nitrates at 25, trites 0.025, ammo 0)), vacuumed the gravel, replaced carbon, added an extra bag of Bio media, then did a 20% water change.

I'm setting up a spare 10 for them (the remaining 3 fish) to live in while the main tank goes fallow. Once they are all "Clean" for 30 days, I will get another clown and quarantine him in the fish only tank and treat with Paraguard, and then another round of Curpamine as well for all of them... then observe for the remaining time before putting them in the main tank.

I think I'm going to start gathering parts soon for the 29... but I'm torn as I am not sure how to "move" the main tank ecosystem over as a whole.
 

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Well... the Clown got what looks like Brooklynella or Velvet and died.. he went from fine, to swimming slowly, to covered in tiny white dots(not like the other two..think confectionery vs granular sugar) or scales lifted maybe in about 6 hours time, then dead then next morning.
Guessing maybe velvet? He's been fine in the main tank since July 5th and was doing great... I dunno now.
Could Brook show up 60plus days after he was introduced and doing great?
1630677989103.png


The Damsel has been fine the whole time without sign, but one scale looks odd...
1630678162543.png

...so he's now in the 1.5 gallon hospital now with the Gramma and Goby in .5mg/l Cupramine... Just in case... So that tank is now way too small to keep them ok. Everyone is eating and looks fine. (I've been juggling small water changes to keep ammo down, and treated the new water to the right copper lever before swapping it so the parasites dont get a chance..)

I scrubbed the top rocks (thinking, but not seeing maybe Dinos?I did have some green algae(nitrates at 25, trites 0.025, ammo 0)), vacuumed the gravel, replaced carbon, added an extra bag of Bio media, then did a 20% water change.

I'm setting up a spare 10 for them (the remaining 3 fish) to live in while the main tank goes fallow. Once they are all "Clean" for 30 days, I will get another clown and quarantine him in the fish only tank and treat with Paraguard, and then another round of Curpamine as well for all of them... then observe for the remaining time before putting them in the main tank.

I think I'm going to start gathering parts soon for the 29... but I'm torn as I am not sure how to "move" the main tank ecosystem over as a whole.
The clown isn't showing classic Brooklynella, but maybe? Was it breathing really fast before it passed? That would lean me more towards Amyloodinium/velvet.

Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

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Well, I would say to continue on with the plan you outlined then.
Jay
 

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As I only have a 1.5 gallon hospital, and no room for a larger QT (or even this one really) without domestic discord, I may try a "reef safe treatment" to deter the parasite, and some food vitamin soak to build up the other fish this time. (Management vs cure)
If you can't swing a 10 gallon hospital tank without suffering domestic discord, this may not be the hobby for you. Sorry, just speaking the cold/harsh reality here.
 
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If you can't swing a 10 gallon hospital tank without suffering domestic discord, this may not be the hobby for you. Sorry, just speaking the cold/harsh reality here.
Eh... maybe discord is too strong a word.
Let me say it's not impressing her ;)
 

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