LFS Says this isnt Ich - Any ideas?

[Brew12]

The eventual plan for irradication: (Likely driven sooner if the ich return...)
While the Fluval EVO 13.5 is nice... I do feel I made the mistake of too small a tank... it's only 10 gal of water, no room for error, and physically small.

I hate to say it, but I don't recommend trying to run this system as being ich managed, and you nail the reason right here. For the fish you have, the tank is just too small for any aggressive fish like damsels or clowns.
If I had to guess, the fin damage is related to aggression. The stress from aggression weakens the immune system making it very susceptible to parasites.
There also is no treatment that will work in your DT, so I'd recommend not wasting money trying. Unless you want to switch to a very non aggressive stocking plan, I feel going fallow and following a thorough treatment/QT protocol is your best bet.

 

[BWV]

Thank you for your sound advice!

Yup. Fallow and QT is the plan now.
I set up another 10 and hope using the fluval cycle and some bio media that's been soaking in the main tank sump for two weeks helps the cycle go easy. Gonna have to stay on top of it for sure. I'd hate to have nursed 90$ worth of fish through parasites to lose them with cycle stress.. but the 1.5gal they are in now is an ammonia trap with 3 in there, and they cant go back in the main or I will have to start the fallow clock over.

This clown was fine and bothered no one. I'm hoping that's the case for me with the next one. I feel an awful loss there... it was a really nice fish.

The Damsel however... 'nother story. I got the Azure(Kupang) because I read they were more docile. Nope.. he's a meanie. He and the Basslet just an occasional huff and puff at each other. No contact and they stop quick. (that basslet is impressive when he's displaying) but, the little goby is the damsel's target and was the first to display parasites.
I will keep the damsel out for an extra couple weeks when the others go back in and get comfy, and then pull him back out a few times if he acts up. I'd love to keep it.. beautiful fish, but he'll go to my friend's larger tank if I can't modify his behavior somehow. Ironically.. in the hospital tank they are in together now... the damsel just hides. Maybe the noisy filter has him thrown off. The basslet, clown, and goby were all fine before the damsel went in. I agree the stress kicked off the parasite issue.
We'll see...gotta clean up this mess first and figure out some water chemistry. I'm just getting my magnesium up to 1300 and calcium up to 400, I went slow, but now the tank looks cloudy..maybe shimmery or silvery is a better word. Looks just like newly mixed Instant Ocean. I have been dosing them with 48 hours between the two things...so hoping it isn't precipitate.
I just began the process of mixing Instant Ocean, with the intent or replacing the boxed petco water I was using. But that's another thread...

 

[BWV]

An update...
Treated the fish (Cupramine), and sent the Azure to go live in a bigger tank with another damsel and a clown.. he's been happy there for a month. Replaced him with a firefish, and got another clown.

All the fish have now had at least 30 days of copper somewhere between .3 and .5 mg/l
(the neon and basslett got 57 days, the new clown and firefish got 32)

The QT with the 4 fish appears peaceful and healed.

The firefish does look to have some fin deterioration(came with it, but seems to worsen). But I see no white edge, and he looks healthy. He does go insane and bash around the tank anytime someone walks by, so I wonder if that behavior is the cause, or maybe averse to the copper.
Hoping that when he goes in the DT, the hiding spaces will help him calm a bit.

Everyone else looks great

I did a buy from a coral sale, and now have all the coral I feel I will want for a while(I figure... while fallow, why not get that stuff in)
So.. I guess I reset the "fallow clock" with them, so when 11 weeks has passed for the last placed coral (December), I'll return the fish. (Uggh... but, I have this much time in.. why not..)

I just started to take the copper out of the QT last week, with an 80% water change, and am now running 2 bags(1.6g each) of carbon in the HOB filter.

I'll keep testing for copper, when it's zero, I'll change a couple more gallons, pull the carbon and go to a 14 day ParaGuard treatment. Waiting on some Cuprasorb to help the carbon go away, but i think Am@z*n or the USPS lost it...

Wondering.. as I will still have some QT time left after the ParaGuard treatment, if it would be a good idea to run them through a third medication, and what that should be. (Prazi? Malachite Green? Metroplex?)

I did finally get an RODI system and have my water mixing method down to as repeatably perfect as I can (405 calcium, 1350 Mag, 10Dkh, 8.15pH). No more pharmacy distilled water, or weird grey water (I think i put calcium, soda ash, and mag in too close together, in too cold a water, and it precipitated)

Tank conditions at the moment are 8.8 DKH, 25 Nitrates(high.. i know), 0.05 Nitrites, 0.1 phosphate, 8.15 pH, 0 Ammonia, 390 Calcium, 1350 Mag, 1.025, at 79*F

Living things in the DT today... 2 Hammers(1 head and 6 head), a Torch(1 head), 2 leptoseris frags, 2 Cyphostrea, a Duncan, a Toadstool, some GSP, a Ricordia florida, 2 heads of Goniastrea, 3 hermits, an emerald mithrax, and 7 snails (2 Astrea, 2 Nas, 1 Marg, 1 Cerith, 1 Nerite) Sounds like a lot to me...
I was thinking of trying a small bit of Red Ogo for some nutrient control.. Dunno.
I am doing 10% water change every week. (it's a gallon+)
Stock filter foam, carbon, biomax(stock and 2 extra below the foam)

Here's a recent of the tank... ( I like the KPS pump.. works great.. Just bought an Aquaticlife Edge LED to replace the stock Fluval)

Any advice is appreciated.
All does appear well in the tanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

An update...
Treated the fish (Cupramine), and sent the Azure to go live in a bigger tank with another damsel and a clown.. he's been happy there for a month. Replaced him with a firefish, and got another clown.

All the fish have now had at least 30 days of copper somewhere between .3 and .5 mg/l
(the neon and basslett got 57 days, the new clown and firefish got 32)

The QT with the 4 fish appears peaceful and healed.

The firefish does look to have some fin deterioration(came with it, but seems to worsen). But I see no white edge, and he looks healthy. He does go insane and bash around the tank anytime someone walks by, so I wonder if that behavior is the cause, or maybe averse to the copper.
Hoping that when he goes in the DT, the hiding spaces will help him calm a bit.

Everyone else looks great

I did a buy from a coral sale, and now have all the coral I feel I will want for a while(I figure... while fallow, why not get that stuff in)
So.. I guess I reset the "fallow clock" with them, so when 11 weeks has passed for the last placed coral (December), I'll return the fish. (Uggh... but, I have this much time in.. why not..)

I just started to take the copper out of the QT last week, with an 80% water change, and am now running 2 bags(1.6g each) of carbon in the HOB filter.

I'll keep testing for copper, when it's zero, I'll change a couple more gallons, pull the carbon and go to a 14 day ParaGuard treatment. Waiting on some Cuprasorb to help the carbon go away, but i think Am@z*n or the USPS lost it...

Wondering.. as I will still have some QT time left after the ParaGuard treatment, if it would be a good idea to run them through a third medication, and what that should be. (Prazi? Malachite Green? Metroplex?)

I did finally get an RODI system and have my water mixing method down to as repeatably perfect as I can (405 calcium, 1350 Mag, 10Dkh, 8.15pH). No more pharmacy distilled water, or weird grey water (I think i put calcium, soda ash, and mag in too close together, in too cold a water, and it precipitated)

Tank conditions at the moment are 8.8 DKH, 25 Nitrates(high.. i know), 0.05 Nitrites, 0.1 phosphate, 8.15 pH, 0 Ammonia, 390 Calcium, 1350 Mag, 1.025, at 79*F

Living things in the DT today... 2 Hammers(1 head and 6 head), a Torch(1 head), 2 leptoseris frags, 2 Cyphostrea, a Duncan, a Toadstool, some GSP, a Ricordia florida, 2 heads of Goniastrea, 3 hermits, an emerald mithrax, and 7 snails (2 Astrea, 2 Nas, 1 Marg, 1 Cerith, 1 Nerite) Sounds like a lot to me...
I was thinking of trying a small bit of Red Ogo for some nutrient control.. Dunno.
I am doing 10% water change every week. (it's a gallon+)
Stock filter foam, carbon, biomax(stock and 2 extra below the foam)

Here's a recent of the tank... ( I like the KPS pump.. works great.. Just bought an Aquaticlife Edge LED to replace the stock Fluval)

Any advice is appreciated.
All does appear well in the tanks.

I would strongly urge you to skip the Paraguard. It is redundant to the copper treatment and really has a poor track record in marine systems. I think you should dose with Prazipro 2x, ten days apart with good aeration and a 30% water change prior to the second treatment.

Jay

 

[workhz]

Jay ... every single time I see Dundee I think Dundee Scotland then I realize it's you.

 

[Tamberav]

Great job and the tank is really pretty!

I would not bother with paraguard. I think over-exposing fish to medications isn't a good thing and you already treated with copper. Remember their little organs have to filter such things.

 

[BWV]

I would strongly urge you to skip the Paraguard. It is redundant to the copper treatment and really has a poor track record in marine systems. I think you should dose with Prazipro 2x, ten days apart with good aeration and a 30% water change prior to the second treatment.

Jay

Great job and the tank is really pretty!

I would not bother with paraguard. I think over-exposing fish to medications isn't a good thing and you already treated with copper. Remember their little organs have to filter such things.

It is so nice to have resources like you folks available to this forum.
I truly appreciate your advice, and will follow it.

I'll do the Prazipro next.

Any thoughts on the fin damage on the firefish?

Thanks so much!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It is so nice to have resources like you folks available to this forum.
I truly appreciate your advice, and will follow it.

I'll do the Prazipro next.

Any thoughts on the fin damage on the firefish?

Thanks so much!

It does look like another fish nipped the firefish, but I can’t tell you who. Just keep an eye on it so it doesn’t get worse.
Jay

 

[BWV]

Thank you

 

[BWV]

Well, the fish are back in the DT as of Saturday and Sunday.

I tried the neon and firefish gobys first as they are the most docile.
The neon did just fine, no sign of stress, happy fish.
The firefish, on the other hand, seemed a bit stressed, then calmed down and looked ok before I called it a night, but then was on the bottom of the tank the next morning, dead, partially eaten.
Same sourced water in both tanks, same parameters, same temp.
The firefish has been a little off since I got him, always in the corner, looking fine, but never really swimming around.. except for the weird freak out sessions he'd do anytime someone walked into the room that the QT was in. Dunno... I just think he was stressed the whole time and the move didn't help. His fins had grown back from the unexplained missing-ness, and he looked fine for weeks before I moved him back.

So, tested again to assure both tanks were consistent chemically, salinity, and temp wise (for PH 8.15, Alk 8.45, Ammonia 0, NO2 0.025, NO3 25, Phosphate 0.1, Magnesium 1380, Calcium 400, temp 79, salinity 1.025) and they were.
Then I dropped in the Gramma and Clown, and they've been fine and happy, feeding well, swimming well since Sunday.

I'm sad about the loss of my firefish... not sure why he went, but, I'm happy to have the fish back in there.

 

[DanTheReefer]

Well, the fish are back as of Saturday and Sunday.

I tried the neon and firefish gobys first as they are the most docile.
The neon did just fine, no sign of stress, happy fish.
The firefish, on the other hand, seemed a bit stressed, then calmed down and looked ok before I called it a night, but then was on the bottom of the tank the next morning, dead, partially eaten.
Same sourced water in both tanks, same params, same temp.
The firefish has been a little off since I got him, always in the corner, looking fine, but never really swimming around.. except for the weird freak out sessions he'd do anytime someone walked in the room the QT was in. Dunno... I just think he was stressed the whole time and the move didn't help. His fins had grown back from the unexplained missing-ness, and he looked fine for weeks before I moved him back.

So, tested again to assure both tanks were consistent chemically, salinity, and temp wise (for PH 8.15, Alk 8.45, Ammonia 0, NO2 0.025, NO3 25, Phosphate 0.1, Magnesium 1380, Calcium 400, temp 79, salinity 1.025) and they were.
Then I dropped in the Gramma and Clown, and they've been fine and happy, feeding well, swimming well since Sunday.

I'm sad about the loss of my firefish... not sure why, but, I'm happy to have the fish back in there.

Wow, you did a great job getting everyone back to health and thanks for the updates. I thought that neon was a goner from original post.

It’s hard to say what happened to the fire fish. When I saw you were planning to dose with cupramine I felt a little stressed but after reading through it all, looks like you did it correctly to the T.

Really encourage you to look at the tank transfer method velvet (which also covers ich) protocol for new additions. There’s a good humblefish article on it - it’s a chemical free way to clean parasites off the fish. Also do the prazi and freshwater dips per the same article. I do it in 5 gallon buckets with an air stone / heater and swap to a new setup every 36 hours the first week, 72 hours the second week, then another week or 2 in a more traditional QT for observation. I usually just use water from the display tank (make sure same temp) to keep params from swinging - some say display water shouldn’t be used since it may have the pathogens, but I figure the fish is going in there at some point anyway and trust my methods to keep disease out.

I had a lot of bad luck killing stuff with cupramine. If you still want to use power I recommend copper power since it’s a lot more chemically stable. But Tank Transfer Method is my go to now.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well, the fish are back in the DT as of Saturday and Sunday.

I tried the neon and firefish gobys first as they are the most docile.
The neon did just fine, no sign of stress, happy fish.
The firefish, on the other hand, seemed a bit stressed, then calmed down and looked ok before I called it a night, but then was on the bottom of the tank the next morning, dead, partially eaten.
Same sourced water in both tanks, same parameters, same temp.
The firefish has been a little off since I got him, always in the corner, looking fine, but never really swimming around.. except for the weird freak out sessions he'd do anytime someone walked into the room that the QT was in. Dunno... I just think he was stressed the whole time and the move didn't help. His fins had grown back from the unexplained missing-ness, and he looked fine for weeks before I moved him back.

So, tested again to assure both tanks were consistent chemically, salinity, and temp wise (for PH 8.15, Alk 8.45, Ammonia 0, NO2 0.025, NO3 25, Phosphate 0.1, Magnesium 1380, Calcium 400, temp 79, salinity 1.025) and they were.
Then I dropped in the Gramma and Clown, and they've been fine and happy, feeding well, swimming well since Sunday.

I'm sad about the loss of my firefish... not sure why he went, but, I'm happy to have the fish back in there.

Sorry to hear about the firefish. It almost assuredly not a result of the copper, most like transfer stress. The most common cause of fish loss during transfer is shock from a salinity rise, but you've ruled that out. Sometimes, as was said, the added stress from a move takes a marginalized fish over the edge. It had been a poor doer from the start, not all of the issues that cause that are external diseases - it could have been cyanide collection or internal parasites like myxosporidians or a virus....

Jay

 

[BWV]

I'd like to thank everybody for their advice and encouragement, The information and techniques you shared helped me greatly.

 

[BWV]

Want to add...
The Azure Damsel is still beautiful and doing amazingly well. He lives in a 3rd grade classroom, in a well established, much larger tank with a yellowtail damsel, a six line wrasse, and a clown. (Which to me sounds like a recipe for mutually assured destruction... But they all get along great and probably will until that wrasse matures)