LFS's copper treatment safety

[Madison Reef]

I have a LFS that qt their fish but I am not sure if their process is completely safe.

They have all tanks connected together with presence of coppersafe (2.00-2.50 ppm).
They receive new fishes and put them into the same system.
Is it possible for fishes that have been in the tanks get diseases from newly introduced fishes?
Or should I assume that since there exists copper in the whole system, diseases cannot pass on to the existing fishes?

Do you think it is safe to assume that I do not need to qt from this store or not?

 

[sc50964]

Yes, no, and no

 

[gbroadbridge]

I have a LFS that qt their fish but I am not sure if their process is completely safe.

They have all tanks connected together with presence of coppersafe (2.00-2.50 ppm).
They receive new fishes and put them into the same system.
Is it possible for fishes that have been in the tanks get diseases from newly introduced fishes?
Or should I assume that since there exists copper in the whole system, diseases cannot pass on to the existing fishes?

Do you think it is safe to assume that I do not need to qt from this store or not?

If it is exactly as you think, It's a useless quarantine system

 

[lion king]

Is that actually a thearaputic dose, do they stay through the recommended time for treatment. Are the lfs capable of maintaining a consistent thearaputic level, I doubt it. I've tested sg from 1.016 to 1.030 with massive variations from different systems from the same lfs.

I believe it does more harm than good, a sub-theaputic dose can produce more virulent strains just like when humans short their antibiotics. Their are also species which are copper sensitive that could be damaged, not killed with a sub-theaputic dose but damaged to which their lifespan could be greatly compromised.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a LFS that qt their fish but I am not sure if their process is completely safe.

They have all tanks connected together with presence of coppersafe (2.00-2.50 ppm).
They receive new fishes and put them into the same system.
Is it possible for fishes that have been in the tanks get diseases from newly introduced fishes?
Or should I assume that since there exists copper in the whole system, diseases cannot pass on to the existing fishes?

Do you think it is safe to assume that I do not need to qt from this store or not?

I managed a large pet store in the early 1980's where we did just that. It was 10 - 80 gallon tanks hooked together. We ran photozone and coppersafe. Some of the fish in the system were "pets" and lived in there for months, perhaps even years. I don't recall ever having any epizootics in that system. I can't tell you if the customers ever had issues, because they would often mix fish from different stores, the others in the area did not quarantine.

This is not the "best practice", but better than stores that do nothing at all.

Remember though, you still must actively quarantine fish from this store because they are not treating for flukes. Flukes account for perhaps 30% of the fish disease issues seen in new fish.

Jay

 

[piranhaman00]

At those copper levels crypto will not be able to reinfect fish after it has detached , however if they get in a fish and sell in the next day and crypto was still attached then you will get it. Copper only affects the swimming stage

 

[Madison Reef]

So I am bit confused. If copper level is between 2.00 - 2.50 ppm ich would not be able to transfer to other fishes because it will be killed during free swimming stage as piranhanman00 commented?

At those copper levels crypto will not be able to reinfect fish after it has detached , however if they get in a fish and sell in the next day and crypto was still attached then you will get it. Copper only affects the swimming stage

I managed a large pet store in the early 1980's where we did just that. It was 10 - 80 gallon tanks hooked together. We ran photozone and coppersafe. Some of the fish in the system were "pets" and lived in there for months, perhaps even years. I don't recall ever having any epizootics in that system. I can't tell you if the customers ever had issues, because they would often mix fish from different stores, the others in the area did not quarantine.

This is not the "best practice", but better than stores that do nothing at all.

Remember though, you still must actively quarantine fish from this store because they are not treating for flukes. Flukes account for perhaps 30% of the fish disease issues seen in new fish.

Jay

Do you recommend going through copper treatment again if fishes were treated 30 days in their connected tanks?
Also, If fishes go through copper more than 30 days would it affect their lifespan/health negatively?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I am bit confused. If copper level is between 2.00 - 2.50 ppm ich would not be able to transfer to other fishes because it will be killed during free swimming stage as piranhanman00 commented?


Do you recommend going through copper treatment again if fishes were treated 30 days in their connected tanks?
Also, If fishes go through copper more than 30 days would it affect their lifespan/health negatively?

The ich life cycle is complicated and not nearly as clear cut as people would like it to be. Copper only kills the theront/tomite stage. but it also doesn't kill them immediately, there is some lag. In addition, the resting tomont stage can be transferred between tanks on anything wet. Finally, people cannot always visualize the tomonts on the fish, and then accidentally move fish that still have active infections. In all cases, it is best to wait until the infection is over before moving fish out of the treatment system.

I always re-quarantine any new fish I get, regardless of its history. However, that's because my displays have a collection of long term captives that I cannot risk getting sick just from the addition of some new fish. You need to make a risk assessment in your own case. Many aquarists don't quarantine at all, and I think that is very risky. Buying partially quarantined fish is less risky. You also need to treat those 30 day copper fish with praziquantel for flukes.

Toxicity from copper depends on a variety of variables; primarily, the type of copper, the dose used and the species involved. Ionic copper is more toxic and I try not to use it longer than 21 days. Then, some species like sharks, rays, eels and pygmy angels don't do well in it. Coppersafe is what I described using, it can be used with pygmy angels and sometimes even eels and sharks. I've not seen any overt toxicity issues with that product, even after months of use. You will sometimes hear, "Idon't use copper, your fish will die years later". That's pure hogwash. It stems from people losing fish to unknown reasons and then looking back on the fish's history and just picking something to put the blame on.

Jay