light rail Project still in motion!!!

[BeanAnimal]

As I think about the gear rack being bent over an arc, inside or out, the tooth geometry becomes a problem unless formed for the particular arc.

What will work is a roller chain stretched over the arc. Now, the cost of stainless or plastic roller chain, I don’t know. I will look later.

 

[tripdad]

You could use a rotating cable drive. Look at a Porsche sunroof drive. Circa 1977 t0 1988 ish

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have a base design if you are serious @Battlecorals. Trolly driven over arch by timing belt and braked stepper. Much cleaner than the roller chain solution.

But the question becomes what benefit does the complexity of the arc yield? Why not just use linear rails and tilt the light as it travels?

I think the starting point for any of this is asking what you assume the budget per tank to be? That will somewhat dictate your options.

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

I have a base design if you are serious @Battlecorals. Trolly driven over arch by timing belt and braked stepper. Much cleaner than the roller chain solution.

But the question becomes what benefit does the complexity of the arc yield? Why not just use linear rails and tilt the light as it travels?

I think the starting point for any of this is asking what you assume the budget per tank to be? That will somewhat dictate your options.

Right I totally agree. In fact, Marshal earlier brought up this exact idea. In reality, it would be much easier (well, maybe not much easier) to pivot the light as it reaches the outside edges of the rail, rather than have the rail actually Arc itself self. I do think this would achieve the same or similar affect. Maybe even better

So I think at this point if we wanted to move forward with this concept what we'd be trying to accomplish is a rig that could attach to a commercially available light rail that would tilt the fixture from side to side? does this even seem feasible?

Or, absolute path of least resistance. And by far the most economical, I just use a regular light rail, holding two fixtures in line, parallel to the tank, running perpendicular, from side to side.

I'd probably raise them and go back up to 100% so the spread would be considerably better and amount of shading would be minimal throughout the course of the day actually. This would ultimately be the poor man's version of my initial pipe dream concept.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have not looked at any available light mover products, so not sure how much work a retrofit carriage or modification would be.

There are numerous fairly straight forward way to do this from the ground up.

Options:
(2) parallel stainless or anodized tubes with ladder cross members and a hanging carriage, timing belt and stepper is straight forward.
Lamp would hang on pivot and be tilted by a simple linear actuator and adjustable logic.


(2) parallel stainless or aluminum angles bolted together and a hanging carriage. A profile (cam) wold be the spacer and the pivot arm that the lamp hangs from would have a follower. The carriage would be pulled along by the same type of timing belt drive. This is a fixed profile tilt based on the cam though. Not ideal, but simple.

I would leave drive at the end, using a timing belt and stepper. A carriage mounted drive (sprocket or gear running on a track or roller chain) means a more complex carriage and more cabling to drag along and more exposure above humid tank. Although it would be "self contained"

Cabling for lamp (and or drive) could be in. simple cable drag chain or hung overhead from an arm.

How many of these?
What lengths?
Would they hang or sit on tank rim or be stand mounted?

I think this is a fairly easy engineering task after overall criteria are defined.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

20+ year mechanical engineer here. Let me know if you need anything reviewed!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Another approach would be a simple anodized v-slot rail and carriage. Belt drive makes the most sense (to me) still.

OpenBuilds is DOA but the basic idea
https://builds.openbuilds.com/builds/v-slot™-nema-23-linear-actuator-belt-driven.7821/
So for a 4' tank, say a 1500mm rail. Straight forward build.
For the lamp tilt - The lever arm and small actuator or lead screw would be super simple.

 

[Freenow54]

So I dug a little bit and I couldn't find anything quite like this other than the standard light rail that moves back-and-forth on a flat track. I use those in the past and they were great. It's not what I'd like for this application, but we're basically going to expand.

I think I have a guy who can fabricate it if we can design it, but what I'm proposing to build, is essentially an arced light rail that spans 4 foot wide that would move back-and-forth throughout the day maybe once or twice.

Why do I like the idea? Couple reasons.

First, I could cut my light fixtures and usage in half. So rather than running four lights over my raceways each I could run two. Which would be considered a significant in my case.

Second, I like the idea of hitting the corals at just about every angle throughout the course of the day. This would be different than typical flat light rail that just moves back-and-forth because the light itself would be angled inward at the far end of the arc. so as it progressed throughout the cycle, it would almost simulate the sun in that regard as a point source hitting a lot more areas of the Coral than a regular mounted light.


Now the overall cost of designing and making something like this I'm sure exceeds the cost of the additional fixtures I'm running on each raceway, and I would need at least five rigs to cover all of the tanks I'm running a LEDs one, so it could be a pretty hefty price tag at the end of the day, but I can see a lot of benefits to lighting propagation raceways this way. And if it could be pulled off feasibly, I would absolutely try it.

Essentially, it's an arced light rail mover that I would have to be able to mount two LED fixtures on somehow.


Now, forgive this drawing, it does not get any cruder than this, but I'd like to think it'llgive you an idea at least a visual of what I'm trying to say here.

so if any ambitious go-getters, would like to help me actually design something like this let me know.

connect them to a reversing apparatus and connect that to a gerbille exercise wheel obviously need a gerbille

 

[areefer01]

Sounds fun but silly question. Are we possibly over engineering it or making it more complicated? Or is it just the fun, exciting, factor?

80/20 or similar rail systems are easy enough to part list out. Simply shoot them a message, tell them what you want, napkin picture, and you will get a cad diagram back with a parts list.

I do not mean anything disrespectful and obviously looking at it in a simplistic, and dull, view.

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

I have not looked at any available light mover products, so not sure how much work a retrofit carriage or modification would be.

There are numerous fairly straight forward way to do this from the ground up.

Options:
(2) parallel stainless or anodized tubes with ladder cross members and a hanging carriage, timing belt and stepper is straight forward.
Lamp would hang on pivot and be tilted by a simple linear actuator and adjustable logic.


(2) parallel stainless or aluminum angles bolted together and a hanging carriage. A profile (cam) wold be the spacer and the pivot arm that the lamp hangs from would have a follower. The carriage would be pulled along by the same type of timing belt drive. This is a fixed profile tilt based on the cam though. Not ideal, but simple.

I would leave drive at the end, using a timing belt and stepper. A carriage mounted drive (sprocket or gear running on a track or roller chain) means a more complex carriage and more cabling to drag along and more exposure above humid tank. Although it would be "self contained"

Cabling for lamp (and or drive) could be in. simple cable drag chain or hung overhead from an arm.

How many of these?
What lengths?
Would they hang or sit on tank rim or be stand mounted?

I think this is a fairly easy engineering task after overall criteria are defined.

Hey, that's fantastic! I didn't want to abandon the thread for too long so I'm just popping in here quick to acknowledge your info. thank you!

I'm going put together some info for you and get back to you this with a couple pictures and stuff.

So not only am I not even close to an engineer, I'm kind of a visual guy, so a lot of that stuff I don't really understand so well, but I have some more thoughts on this for sure as far as the mechanism, and how it can be implemented, running parallel or perpendicular, even.



as soon I can pop back down in the office and get these questions answered answered for you. I promise I will and thanks again for your time on this already. I really appreciate it!

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

OK, so I have been actively working on this, and I think I've come up with a realistic, practical way to do this and it utilizes the light rail 5.0.

I went head and got one and mounted it as is with two meridians hanging parallel to the tank, so I've essentially got the back-and-forth motion that I need.

heres a few pics installed. had to brace the ends a little bit other wise pretty simple stuff

where we need to take this is either cut the rail and weld it. 5-10 degrees at the most. Assuming the motor travel along the bend. I am going to try to mock up and rail and test that soon. I'll have to mount the lights much more securely to the bar. I think I'll lose the bent ones and just get two straight ones and maybe just rig up a couple brackets to bolt the lights directly to the bar.




Or, if it's possible to machine an actual arced rail, that would be kind of like the cats meow

This is the profile and I've highlighted in blue the critical areas that would need to be just about perfect. Everything else on the sides and stuff doesn't really matter, as long as it's structurally sound. The upper wheels roll on the outer grooves, and the motor wheel rolls up on the two grooves on the bottom.

I went ahead and mocked up at 10° cut on the rail and I'd like to think of a good welder could put this together. Pretty easily

what do you think?

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

Only issue I see is the cam wheels getting caught on that bend as it travels. Those rails have very tight tolerances and it might bind it up without a bend with a large radius.

Also find a good muffler shop to tig weld that aluminum. That's going to be another tough task to not throw the tolerances off when welding and getting slag/weld splash in the way.

 

[Jasonak]

Only issue I see is the cam wheels getting caught on that bend as it travels. Those rails have very tight tolerances and it might bind it up without a bend with a large radius.

Also find a good muffler shop to tig weld that aluminum. That's going to be another tough task to not throw the tolerances off when welding and getting slag/weld splash in the way.

Good call on the muffler shop but maybe instead of cutting and welding just have them run it through there pipe bender and add the angle that way, if that makes sense.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don't think there is a remote chance of that working. The carriage or traction tire is not going to follow an abrupt welded rail joint. Bending that extrusion into an arc and maintaining its geometry is not going to happen on a muffler shop mandrel bender.

A flat rail and a tilting lamp carrier of some sort will be much easier to implement.

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

I don't think there is a remote chance of that working. The carriage or traction tire is not going to follow an abrupt welded rail joint. Bending that extrusion into an arc and maintaining its geometry is not going to happen on a muffler shop mandrel bender.

A flat rail and a tilting lamp carrier of some sort will be much easier to implement.

I hear you completely and I'm skeptical myself. I know a couple welders that have been doing it for a long time and I may just run it by them and see if this is something that is even remotely feasible before I go any further on the welded rail.

And that brings me to tilting the lights , which using the set up as is, could be done with an actuator at the top of the bar, and a wire connected to each side that rotates and pulls the end up as it moves one way, and then turns and pulls the end of as it moves back the other way.

basically a two-way actuator and some wire. So the fixtures still hangs by the bar and the wire like in the pic, and the small motor just pulls the end of the tight it up a little bit as it moves along the path. Then, when it gets to center, the motor turns the other way, and does the same thing if you are following me. Again, not an engineer, and this probably sounds extremely ghetto, but does it sound even remotely feasible?

The least moving parts the better I think for this for sure, I also have no idea how to time it with the path of the light rail motor.

And lastly, I was able to get the lights to rotate with a simple stop at the far end of the path that when it hit it, it just swung it a little bit on the wires. I could easily get it to tilt 10° and 20 even before the tension was a little more than I was comfortable with. I got a video, but I can't post it. so heres a still.

Again, just a test and a bit ( you might be a redneck) and I don't know that I would actually implement this, but in its simplest form it worked.

 

[Jasonak]

I hear you completely and I'm skeptical myself. I know a couple welders that have been doing it for a long time and I may just run it by them and see if this is something that is even remotely feasible before I go any further on the welded rail.

And that brings me to tilting the lights , which using the set up as is, could be done with an actuator at the top of the bar, and a wire connected to each side that rotates and pulls the end up as it moves one way, and then turns and pulls the end of as it moves back the other way.

basically a two-way actuator and some wire. So the fixtures still hangs by the bar and the wire like in the pic, and the small motor just pulls the end of the tight it up a little bit as it moves along the path. Then, when it gets to center, the motor turns the other way, and does the same thing if you are following me. Again, not an engineer, and this probably sounds extremely ghetto, but does it sound even remotely feasible?

The least moving parts the better I think for this for sure, I also have no idea how to time it with the path of the light rail motor.

And lastly, I was able to get the lights to rotate with a simple stop at the far end of the path that when it hit it, it just swung it a little bit on the wires. I could easily get it to tilt 10° and 20 even before the tension was a little more than I was comfortable with. I got a video, but I can't post it. so heres a still.

Again, just a test and a bit ( you might be a redneck) and I don't know that I would actually implement this, but in its simplest form it worked.

I had thoughts of something like this using a stop or cables on each side that would get tight at the end. I wasn't sure if the motor would be strong enough to tilt them. Another idea is the mount in the middle setup like a teeter totter. That dosent seem like that would be overly hard to do either.

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

I had thoughts of something like this using a stop or cables on each side that would get tight at the end. I wasn't sure if the motor would be strong enough to tilt them. Another idea is the mount in the middle setup like a teeter totter. That dosent seem like that would be overly hard to do either.

Yeah, right that’s not a bad idea. Have the bracket mounted in the center of the far ends of the fixture so it’s just teeters like you said rather than swing.

Seems like that would be pretty simple to do but I still don’t understand how it would be synced with the existing motor. I guess it would just depend on the RPM of whatever makes it rock back-and-forth of which I have no idea about or how to even come close to calculating something like that

 

[Jasonak]

It could be done dirt simple. EDIT Actually this way wouldn't work now that I'm thinking about it, with the lights on cables they would just stay level , which is not what you after. If only we knew a guy that worked with aluminum and fabricated stuff on a daily basis....

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

It could be done dirt simple. EDIT Actually this way wouldn't work now that I'm thinking about it, with the lights on cables they would just stay level , which is not what you after. If only we knew a guy that worked with aluminum and fabricated stuff on a daily basis....

No, I hear you completely. I’m thinking ditch the cables and mount them to the bar directly onto an axel on each end in the middle for lack of a better word.

I do think that would provide the the swivel motion that we need then it just would have to be motorized *NSYNC to the existing mover

 

[Dust Bowl Corals Verified Sponsor]

Random thought, but could you do this:

Use the motor you have pictured, mount the lights on down bar that pivots at the top. When you want the lights to angle at the edges of the tank, have a bar dropped down that the lights would "rest against" and the motor would keep moving, resulting in the lights moving at an angle.

Hopefully that makes sense.