Looking to switch from Neptune to GHL but concerned about software

[r21]

Hi, I’ve invested a lot into Neptune kit currently running Apex, WXM, Dos, DDR, Trident but I’m upgrading to a new larger tank but the area it’s going in has no room for external equipment and I’m going to struggle to fit in all the Apex kit So I looked at GHL as the form factor is a lot more stackable and I can fit in what I need.

In addition to the fact it fits I like the build quality, the fact GHL has a Powerbar that is equivalent for the UK market, the upcoming Ion director looks promising as well, however I have tried the GHL online demo and watched numerous YouTube videos of how to use and configure the software and to me it’s a long way behind Neptune as an interface, I’m sure it can do as much if not more than Neptune but it is so appallingly clunky in my opinion. is there any plan to update the interface? Even simple things like being able to rename things seem beyond it

all thought welcome

 

[DWill]

You might consider going to the YouTube channel “reef automation“ and watch the series comparing Apex and GHL before you make the jump. A ton of good info in that series.

 

[r21]

Thanks I’ve been on that channel and watched a lot of them, it’s was the programming part 2 video that gave me real concerns about how you configure the logic

 

[Tristren]

Hi, I’ve invested a lot into Neptune kit currently running Apex, WXM, Dos, DDR, Trident but I’m upgrading to a new larger tank but the area it’s going in has no room for external equipment and I’m going to struggle to fit in all the Apex kit So I looked at GHL as the form factor is a lot more stackable and I can fit in what I need.

In addition to the fact it fits I like the build quality, the fact GHL has a Powerbar that is equivalent for the UK market, the upcoming Ion director looks promising as well, however I have tried the GHL online demo and watched numerous YouTube videos of how to use and configure the software and to me it’s a long way behind Neptune as an interface, I’m sure it can do as much if not more than Neptune but it is so appallingly clunky in my opinion. is there any plan to update the interface? Even simple things like being able to rename things seem beyond it

all thought welcome

While the PC software (GCC) does have a distinctly "retro" vibe, pretty much everything is done through the app now. So the UX is much improved.

Tony

 

[ReefPig]

Hello mate,
If we lived closer you’d be more than welcome to come and have a play with my setup before you dive into another investment, but that’s quite a trip, so I’ll share my thoughts.

I‘ve had three GHL Profilux‘s over the years, my first was around 15 years ago.

I work in IT with big systems that spend hundreds of millions per year in development, I sometimes forget, this is hobby equipment, that’s fairly complex, and has no more than a couple of developers.
Software take time, and GHL has always delivered high quality (stable releases) over mass features.

There are many features I’d like to see added, but I know a lot of them are already being designed/worked on and will drop at some point.

GHL has a very different way of thinking than Neptune.
With Neptune, for advanced features or specific logic, you need to code it. Whilst I'm a techie and I would love nothing more than having the ability to code my own logic, the vast majority of GHL customers are not, and they want to deliver a product which is bullet proof, writing code is not bullet proof.

GHL achieve this by first of all having more advanced features built into the core system, so no coding required, but where you do need to combine things together or have your own logic, then they have something called "Programmable Logic", which are essentially a series of logical gates.
Such as "A and B" or "A or B", and many other operators. Where I said "A", for instance, this could be any sensor, or trigger, like cooling etc.

It sounds far more complex than it is, and once you get your hands dirty with it, you'll see it's actually a million times easier than coding in Neptune.
I do think this capability should be expanded in the future, to make it more user friendly, but it's a solid approach.

As i said though, 98% of my setup runs without programmable logic, as the core features are extremely flexible.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Even simple things like being able to rename things seem beyond it"? Every sensor and component is namable and this is very easy to do, there is only one area I know of which cannot be named, and that is programmable logic, you cannot give the gate a name, you used to be able to in the old UI, but not in the Connect App, this is something on their radar to include.

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll do my best to answer it and show you.

A few pics of my setup and some of the many screens.

 

[lmm1967]

I would hang on to your apex until you are confident you're making the right choice.

I was in your shoes a year ago - not due to space, due to a few pitfalls I had with my Apex.

It was a LOT of frustration and lost money for me and I wound up ditching it all.

Programming and managing - the methods GHL use vs Apex to accomplish things are different. Neither is better than the other or has more capabilities than the other IMO. You can automate pretty much anything with either one - you may need a cable or module here or there - but they both can do about the same things.

I don't believe the learning curve is easier on one vs the other. If you are used to Apex you have to forget that when you approach GHL.

There are still things with GHL that you MUST do with a PC physically connected to the controller.


I've just finished selling off the last of the GHL gear and I'm back to a combination of Apex & DIY.

That was about a $4k failed experiment.

GHL gear may stack nicely - wait until something leaks, like a KHD leaking internally - then you realize that device just flooded everything below it and of course water damage is not covered (I was lucky, it was at the bottom of the stack when it leaked).

I have 4 tanks in the house and purchased 2 KHD - guess what nobody tells you? You can NOT run 2 KHD (or 2 IOND in the future) on one Profilux. I would think that tidbit of information may be documented someplace. When I asked if the could point me to documentation defining platform limitations such as this so others would not spend almost $900 on equipment you can't use - they closed the support case, locked my post on their forum and claimed I was complaining rather than asking for support.

The melted outlet on the 3 month old powerbar. "Must be your heaters fault". OK - GHL did do me a favor and let me purchase a replacement at a good discount. I appreciated that.

The heater? Oh - it's still running today without issue. Yeah, um, it wasn't the heater.

How about your controller waking you up at 2 am telling you your tank is 122F? yep - I had to turn off alarms. Blamed on interference. Somehow that GHL expansion box was the only device in my entire home subject to this special interference.

How about "factory calibrated" digital temperature probes being 3 degrees off from each other. Must be the port - swap the probes and the temps follow the probes. Show pictures of this happening. Silence from support and I end up just over-riding calibration on the port so the probes measure the same.

Many people have great success with GHL and a Profilux may be a perfect solution for you.

 

[ReefPig]

I would hang on to your apex until you are confident you're making the right choice.

I was in your shoes a year ago - not due to space, due to a few pitfalls I had with my Apex.

It was a LOT of frustration and lost money for me and I wound up ditching it all.

Programming and managing - the methods GHL use vs Apex to accomplish things are different. Neither is better than the other or has more capabilities than the other IMO. You can automate pretty much anything with either one - you may need a cable or module here or there - but they both can do about the same things.

I don't believe the learning curve is easier on one vs the other. If you are used to Apex you have to forget that when you approach GHL.

There are still things with GHL that you MUST do with a PC physically connected to the controller.


I've just finished selling off the last of the GHL gear and I'm back to a combination of Apex & DIY.

That was about a $4k failed experiment.

GHL gear may stack nicely - wait until something leaks, like a KHD leaking internally - then you realize that device just flooded everything below it and of course water damage is not covered (I was lucky, it was at the bottom of the stack when it leaked).

I have 4 tanks in the house and purchased 2 KHD - guess what nobody tells you? You can NOT run 2 KHD (or 2 IOND in the future) on one Profilux. I would think that tidbit of information may be documented someplace. When I asked if the could point me to documentation defining platform limitations such as this so others would not spend almost $900 on equipment you can't use - they closed the support case, locked my post on their forum and claimed I was complaining rather than asking for support.

The melted outlet on the 3 month old powerbar. "Must be your heaters fault". OK - GHL did do me a favor and let me purchase a replacement at a good discount. I appreciated that.

The heater? Oh - it's still running today without issue. Yeah, um, it wasn't the heater.

How about your controller waking you up at 2 am telling you your tank is 122F? yep - I had to turn off alarms. Blamed on interference. Somehow that GHL expansion box was the only device in my entire home subject to this special interference.

How about "factory calibrated" digital temperature probes being 3 degrees off from each other. Must be the port - swap the probes and the temps follow the probes. Show pictures of this happening. Silence from support and I end up just over-riding calibration on the port so the probes measure the same.

Many people have great success with GHL and a Profilux may be a perfect solution for you.

I read your posts here and on the GHL forum, you were complaining.
Its a shame you had a leak, but has anyone else?
It‘s not like it’s a major design flaw, just a defect you had on your unit.
GHL would fix/replace anything under warranty, or even after warranty for a cost.

GHL support are not always the easiest to communicate with, but I put this down to the fact that German people communicate very differently and with respect, if you start your American sass with them, don’t expect a warm reception.

Either way, whatever man, I’m bored of seeing you dissing GHL at every opportunity to anyone considering it.
Like why are you even on the GHL sub forum, if nothing more than to put people off it?

Get over it and move on.

 

[r21]

Hello mate,
If we lived closer you’d be more than welcome to come and have a play with my setup before you dive into another investment, but that’s quite a trip, so I’ll share my thoughts.

I‘ve had three GHL Profilux‘s over the years, my first was around 15 years ago.

I work in IT with big systems that spend hundreds of millions per year in development, I sometimes forget, this is hobby equipment, that’s fairly complex, and has no more than a couple of developers.
Software take time, and GHL has always delivered high quality (stable releases) over mass features.

There are many features I’d like to see added, but I know a lot of them are already being designed/worked on and will drop at some point.

GHL has a very different way of thinking than Neptune.
With Neptune, for advanced features or specific logic, you need to code it. Whilst I'm a techie and I would love nothing more than having the ability to code my own logic, the vast majority of GHL customers are not, and they want to deliver a product which is bullet proof, writing code is not bullet proof.

GHL achieve this by first of all having more advanced features built into the core system, so no coding required, but where you do need to combine things together or have your own logic, then they have something called "Programmable Logic", which are essentially a series of logical gates.
Such as "A and B" or "A or B", and many other operators. Where I said "A", for instance, this could be any sensor, or trigger, like cooling etc.

It sounds far more complex than it is, and once you get your hands dirty with it, you'll see it's actually a million times easier than coding in Neptune.
I do think this capability should be expanded in the future, to make it more user friendly, but it's a solid approach.

As i said though, 98% of my setup runs without programmable logic, as the core features are extremely flexible.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Even simple things like being able to rename things seem beyond it"? Every sensor and component is namable and this is very easy to do, there is only one area I know of which cannot be named, and that is programmable logic, you cannot give the gate a name, you used to be able to in the old UI, but not in the Connect App, this is something on their radar to include.

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll do my best to answer it and show you.

A few pics of my setup and some of the many screens.

Thanks for extremely detailed post, I also work in IT working for very large organisations and I agree dev work does cost money and time but i would still say this interface is very clunky.
I code in PowerShell all the time, very basic If statements in Apex are so much simpler that the programmable logic and yes it was that element I was referring too in terms of naming and the fact you have to have multiple logic decisions to do what can be accomplished in apex in a couple of if statements.

i really do appreciate the detailed response and I may well get back to you with more questions. Cheers

 

[r21]

I would hang on to your apex until you are confident you're making the right choice.

I was in your shoes a year ago - not due to space, due to a few pitfalls I had with my Apex.

It was a LOT of frustration and lost money for me and I wound up ditching it all.

Programming and managing - the methods GHL use vs Apex to accomplish things are different. Neither is better than the other or has more capabilities than the other IMO. You can automate pretty much anything with either one - you may need a cable or module here or there - but they both can do about the same things.

I don't believe the learning curve is easier on one vs the other. If you are used to Apex you have to forget that when you approach GHL.

There are still things with GHL that you MUST do with a PC physically connected to the controller.


I've just finished selling off the last of the GHL gear and I'm back to a combination of Apex & DIY.

That was about a $4k failed experiment.

GHL gear may stack nicely - wait until something leaks, like a KHD leaking internally - then you realize that device just flooded everything below it and of course water damage is not covered (I was lucky, it was at the bottom of the stack when it leaked).

I have 4 tanks in the house and purchased 2 KHD - guess what nobody tells you? You can NOT run 2 KHD (or 2 IOND in the future) on one Profilux. I would think that tidbit of information may be documented someplace. When I asked if the could point me to documentation defining platform limitations such as this so others would not spend almost $900 on equipment you can't use - they closed the support case, locked my post on their forum and claimed I was complaining rather than asking for support.

The melted outlet on the 3 month old powerbar. "Must be your heaters fault". OK - GHL did do me a favor and let me purchase a replacement at a good discount. I appreciated that.

The heater? Oh - it's still running today without issue. Yeah, um, it wasn't the heater.

How about your controller waking you up at 2 am telling you your tank is 122F? yep - I had to turn off alarms. Blamed on interference. Somehow that GHL expansion box was the only device in my entire home subject to this special interference.

How about "factory calibrated" digital temperature probes being 3 degrees off from each other. Must be the port - swap the probes and the temps follow the probes. Show pictures of this happening. Silence from support and I end up just over-riding calibration on the port so the probes measure the same.

Many people have great success with GHL and a Profilux may be a perfect solution for you.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with GHL, it doesn’t sound like it was a good one and hopefully your experience is a rarity.

 

[ReefPig]

Thanks for extremely detailed post, I also work in IT working for very large organisations and I agree dev work does cost money and time but i would still say this interface is very clunky.
I code in PowerShell all the time, very basic If statements in Apex are so much simpler that the programmable logic and yes it was that element I was referring too in terms of naming and the fact you have to have multiple logic decisions to do what can be accomplished in apex in a couple of if statements.

i really do appreciate the detailed response and I may well get back to you with more questions. Cheers

Absolutely agree, and that is exactly the bit I feel they need to improve.
only having two operations per gate is clunky.

For my skimmer, I have many gates:
I have a sensor in the skimmer lid to detect overflow, I don’t want it to run if the sump level is high, or the sump is low, or a leak is detected, I also want a delay after maintenance mode, so the return can catch up and not overflow the skimmer, etc.

I have all this working happily, but it needs many gates chained together, which can be painful if something fails and you need to troubleshoot.
I‘ve requested three features on this:
1) One programmable logic object to support many gates as a list (A and B, or C And D).
2) Bring back naming, which is still available in GCC, but not connect
3) introduce traffic lights against each programmable logic to indicate the state of the gate, so you don’t need to troubleshoot each component by attaching it to a switch.

I think this would make it a lot easier to work with.

 

[lmm1967]

I read your posts here and on the GHL forum, you were complaining.
Its a shame you had a leak, but has anyone else?
It‘s not like it’s a major design flaw, just a defect you had on your unit.
GHL would fix/replace anything under warranty, or even after warranty for a cost.

GHL support are not always the easiest to communicate with, but I put this down to the fact that German people communicate very differently and with respect, if you start your American sass with them, don’t expect a warm reception.

Either way, whatever man, I’m bored of seeing you dissing GHL at every opportunity to anyone considering it.
Like why are you even on the GHL sub forum, if nothing more than to put people off it?

Get over it and move on.

TBH - I don't even pay attention to what sub-forum a question is in - I saw it on the front page of "What's New".

You are welcome to stop reading my posts, ignore me and move along. There are nice little buttons you can click that will prevent you from seeing my real world experiences.

I did not tell anyone to stay away from GHL and nothing I've stated is untrue or inaccurate.

Do you not see that I also point out positives?

My leak - was never even pointed out on the forums - I think you are thinking of someone else that went crazy because of a leak that was user error.

I'm one of the small percentage of people with fairly extensive first hand experiences with multiple brands of controllers and if I see someone asking a question that I can provide information on - I'll do it.

If you want to call me being annoyed at a $900 purchase being useless due to lack of documentation "american sass" - so be it. I call it "I paid you for something, now stop acting like you are doing me a favor".

 

[User1]

I believe @Ditto has a thread here that goes through his process with a lot of Q&A switching from Apex to GHL. If you have some time maybe give it a go. I mean if I was to switch and found a thread such as this I'd grab a beverage and read it.

Switching Controllers from Apex to GHL

The title of the thread says it all. I am not going to bash Neptune systems, all I am going to say mine crashed again, and the word fluke in the technical response left me going I cannot take any more chances. This was my second hard crash of the system, where both time the system came up in an...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ycnibrc]

As far as remote access the Neptune will have an edge. As far as hardware and performance then ghl will win. The ghl doser is very precise and works well. I hook up my labtop to the profilux and i can do everything plus a big screen for the parameters with neptune u cant do that.
GHL will work even without internet. The probe are much better build than neptune. As far as ease of programming the edge is slightly toward neptune

 

[ReefPig]

As far as remote access the Neptune will have an edge. As far as hardware and performance then ghl will win. The ghl doser is very precise and works well. I hook up my labtop to the profilux and i can do everything plus a big screen for the parameters with neptune u cant do that.
GHL will work even without internet. The probe are much better build than neptune. As far as ease of programming the edge is slightly toward neptune

Hey,
How do you mean Neptune has the edge on remote access?
Connect web and app is internet based. I access my GHL from other countries when working away.

 

[arking_mark]

TBH - I don't even pay attention to what sub-forum a question is in - I saw it on the front page of "What's New".

You are welcome to stop reading my posts, ignore me and move along. There are nice little buttons you can click that will prevent you from seeing my real world experiences.

I did not tell anyone to stay away from GHL and nothing I've stated is untrue or inaccurate.

Do you not see that I also point out positives?

My leak - was never even pointed out on the forums - I think you are thinking of someone else that went crazy because of a leak that was user error.

I'm one of the small percentage of people with fairly extensive first hand experiences with multiple brands of controllers and if I see someone asking a question that I can provide information on - I'll do it.

If you want to call me being annoyed at a $900 purchase being useless due to lack of documentation "american sass" - so be it. I call it "I paid you for something, now stop acting like you are doing me a favor".

Since I bought a lot of your equipment, I was the beneficiary of your GHL exodus. I must say, the equipment was in like-new condition and has worked flawlessly for me.

Per the topic, however, I do caution that "programming" is not great. Don't get me wrong, it can probably do everything you want it to do.

I think they tried to make it too user friendly and ended up obfuscation more basic control logic I would prefer to do. If your doing the out of the box functions, it pretty straight forward once you understand how they approach it.

 

[r21]

Absolutely agree, and that is exactly the bit I feel they need to improve.
only having two operations per gate is clunky.

For my skimmer, I have many gates:
I have a sensor in the skimmer lid to detect overflow, I don’t want it to run if the sump level is high, or the sump is low, or a leak is detected, I also want a delay after maintenance mode, so the return can catch up and not overflow the skimmer, etc.

I have all this working happily, but it needs many gates chained together, which can be painful if something fails and you need to troubleshoot.
I‘ve requested three features on this:
1) One programmable logic object to support many gates as a list (A and B, or C And D).
2) Bring back naming, which is still available in GCC, but not connect
3) introduce traffic lights against each programmable logic to indicate the state of the gate, so you don’t need to troubleshoot each component by attaching it to a switch.

I think this would make it a lot easier to work with.

How quickly do they respond to positive feedback, have any changes been made recently based on community feedback?

 

[ycnibrc]

Hey,
How do you mean Neptune has the edge on remote access?
Connect web and app is internet based. I access my GHL from other countries when working away.

The ghl Wan connection is not consistent if u read the complaints on ghl forum while Apex fushion is more consistent connected. Also the apex fushion display interface is much more nicer and easier to use.

 

[ycnibrc]

For me i love ghl because my need is for the dose reliability. I dont like to adjust all the time so set it and forget it therefore the software is not a concern for me. I set up the ghl once then thats it.

 

[ReefPig]

The ghl Wan connection is not consistent if u read the complaints on ghl forum while Apex fushion is more consistent connected. Also the apex fushion display interface is much more nicer and easier to use.

I have a screen which almost exclusively shows my dashboard, and I’m constantly connected via either iPad, iPhone or my Mac.
I‘ve never had a connection failure, my current unit is a year old and has only been switched off once, as I was redoing the cabling. Hasn’t missed a beat.

 

[ReefPig]

How quickly do they respond to positive feedback, have any changes been made recently based on community feedback?

Their main update cycle is typically twice a year, the way I understand it, a feature starts being planned a year ahead, designed and prototyped, then fully featured and tested for the final release.
They put a lot of time into testing to ensure nothing breaks.
The downside is changes can be seen as slow.

Almost exclusively, every time I’ve suggested something it’s either already planned or they have it on their “to do“ board, and they do deliver against this, it just takes time.

The last couple of years has been developing the new UI (Connect), the KHD and IOND (the changes for this went live in the last release).
Unfortunately this means they’ve been focusing on new technology and products, so they haven’t include many extras.

Although one feature I did ask for and is now live, is the EcoTech vortech controller being included in the Connect app, although I think they already had this planned anyway.