Losing fish in QT

[AaronFReef]

I have a 29g QT set up that I tried to cycle with microbacter 7, dr Tim’s one and only, and a third off brand of bacterial starter my LFS sold me on. I started the tank and ghost fed it and added de tims ammonia chloride. I tested for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with salifert. Got nitrate after a couple weeks and kept ghost feeding lightly, maybe five PE mysis pellets a day.

First batch of three firefish I did a water change on after a couple weeks and got what looked like cloudy white stinky water I believed was a bacterial bloom. I started losing some fish so I took out the biggest one and transferred it to the new DT since he looked good. I felt that somehow my biological filter had died so I wanted to save it. The ammmonia read “safe” on my seachem in tank monitor and 0.25 on salifert (just discernible as not white).

I’m on my second batch of fish in it. Got two replacement firefish and a flasher wrasse. Had the firefish in there for a week and added the wrasse. I was probably feeding too heavy but it was hard to coax the firefish out to feed without blowing food past their hiding spots under PVC. My mistake. So Sunday I did a water change. I pulled out the sponge filter Monday morning (the only filter, and a very large one) and tried to add carbon to its internal chamber cuz it looked like the bacterial bloom was coming back and thought I ought to add something to counter the organics buildup since the water change hadn’t been sufficient. The sponge and carbon size weren’t compatible and I had a full blown carbon volcano as soon as I added the rinsed carbon filled sponge back to the tank. Then I scooped it all out and siphoned the remnants out and all the leftover food. [emoji1751]‍[emoji3603]

So later in the day one fish is near dead so I do ammonia tests and nitrite trying to figure out what’s going on. It had one small brown indentation on his stomach that looked like perhaps the PVC had crushed him when I was siphoning the carbon and he was trying to hide. Anyways... the ammonia reads maybe 0.25 on salifert but my Seachem monitor looks like “Safe” still. But my nitrite reads 4!! The fish begin gasping at the surface and white stuff is coming off the wrasse in little white strips and specs (thought it looked like his mucus but it was almost like small dead ich parasites... i really couldn’t tell).

So I figure there must be ammonia and my water change the previous day upped the pH and caused it to go toxic form. I add Amquel and some more Microbacter 7. The fish seemed near dead all night but seem a little better today with both actively swimming to the surface again though taking turns lying in corners. Just added another capful of Amquel and more microbacter 7.

First, what is causing this issue? Why does my ammonia look near zero and show safe on seachem if it’s killing them?

Second, what can I do to save these fish? Methylene blue?

 

[AaronFReef]

Also, should I be dosing Amquel daily now for the rest of the quarantine?

 

[AaronFReef]

Also I had planned to use cupramine but just hadn’t gotten to it when all this fun began with the ammonia. I see that’s not good to use with Amquel so I guess I have to forego that until I can get the ammonia under control.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@Humblefish
Give this person a hand with their QT questions. They are right in your wheel house!

 

[Vahanyos]

Ditch the QT

 

[AaronFReef]

Ditch the QT

Man, I am the conservative type when it comes to risk but it’s caused me to kill half of my fish so far [emoji23] beginning to rethink my ideas.

 

[ngoodermuth]

This might help:
Ammonia Control in a Hospital Tank
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...ntrol-in-a-Hospital-Tank.296119/&share_type=t

Also, you don’t actually need or want a “cycled” tank for QT, as the bio filter can actually diminish or in some cases consume some of the medications that we are trying to give our fish.

 

[Vahanyos]

There’s an interesting thread on here about NOT using QT... I can’t find it at the moment but I’ll link it if I do.

I’ve never QT’d fish. Am I playing with fire? Maybe. Have I lost fish? Yes of course (unfortunately it’s part of the hobby). However, buy a healthy looking fish and provide the right diet and environment and their immune system will keep them alive. They have one for a reason. The thread I’m trying to link talks about fish that have built immune systems and evolved over years and years to withstand and endure and even overcome some of theee illnesses/diseases.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Also want to note that while prime is fine to use while setting up your QT, and with most medications... it is NOT compatible with copper. It increases the toxicity of the copper tenfold and will kill all of your fish rather quickly.

The bottled bacteria are fine to use... but you probably don’t need all three kinds. Mostly you’ll need to rely on frequent water changes to manage ammonia while treating with copper.

 

[jsvand5]

Man, I am the conservative type when it comes to risk but it’s caused me to kill half of my fish so far [emoji23] beginning to rethink my ideas.

Don’t rethink your ideas. Just start doing more frequent and bigger water changes. I also like to siphon out any uneaten food/ feces at the end of every day or at most every other day. Most of the time I use uncycled QTs.

 

[AaronFReef]

Also want to note that while prime is fine to use while setting up your QT, and with most medications... it is NOT compatible with copper. It increases the toxicity of the copper tenfold and will kill all of your fish rather quickly.

The bottled bacteria are fine to use... but you probably don’t need all three kinds. Mostly you’ll need to rely on frequent water changes to manage ammonia while treating with copper.

I hear you on the three kinds. I started with Dr tims and found it wasn’t producing nitrate quickly as advertised so I went and tried some more brands.

Thanks for the tip on Ammonia reducers. I’ll have to figure out what to do if these guys make it and I still want to use cupramine. Maybe some serious water changes.

 

[ngoodermuth]

There’s an interesting thread on here about NOT using QT... I can’t find it at the moment but I’ll link it if I do.

I’ve never QT’d fish. Am I playing with fire? Maybe. Have I lost fish? Yes of course (unfortunately it’s part of the hobby). However, buy a healthy looking fish and provide the right diet and environment and their immune system will keep them alive. They have one for a reason. The thread I’m trying to link talks about fish that have built immune systems and evolved over years and years to withstand and endure and even overcome some of theee illnesses/diseases.

In the ocean, these parasites that they “deal with” are few and far in between. But when they are trapped in a tiny glass box with hundreds of parasites per one fish... it gets a bit more dicey.

Can you manage ich? Sure, maybe for a while. But from someone who has had crash courses with velvet twice, and ich so numerous that it looked like velvet...And thank goodness I’ve never had to deal with a full reef tank with uronema, which does not require fish to survive and therefore has no fallow period... you get the idea.

Yea, I’ve learned that QT is the best risk mitigation I have.

 

[ngoodermuth]

And a bath in methylene blue if you have it, might be helpful if they do have nitrite/ammonia poisoning.

I would do the bath in a 5-gallon bucket with an airstone and small heater. Meanwhile, perform as close to a 100% waterchange on the QT as you can. Keep monitoring ammonia and nitrite, even testing multiple times daily if needed- with saltwater at the ready.

Also, oxygen depletion can be an issue if you are having bacterial blooms... so make sure you have plenty of flow. I use a powerhead aimed directly at the surface and an airstone in my QTs.

 

[Humblefish]

^^ I couldn’t possibly provide better answers than @ngoodermuth has already given.

 

[AaronFReef]

Thanks so much guys. Wish me luck saving these little guys from my comedy of errors.

 

[Williamson’s Reef]

What size tank? What kind of filter? Any powerheads? Air Stones? Add some of not. Make sure there’s good surface agitation. It can only help. Just seen this was mentioned..lol.

 

[AaronFReef]

It’s a 29g with a large sponge filter with a large air pump dual output teed together going through it. Two 100w heaters. Koralia 1500gph powerhead agitating the surface. PVC pipes for hiding.

 

[AaronFReef]

 

[Psychonaut]

Do you have any pics of the fish? The brown or the white? Are you sure it isn’t a fish disease being exasperated by the tank fluctuations?

Side note; it’s not your problem but the pvc looks a little big for some smaller fishes

 

[AaronFReef]

Sadly I didn’t snag any pics of the fish but the brown spot was sunken like an injury. My feeling is it was brown blood from the ammonia poisoning (nitrite poisoning does that in freshwater fish, not sure about ammonia in saltwater).

I just finished the 30 minute methylene bath and 100% water change. Unfortunately I only had half a tank’s worth of water ready. I’ll add more tomorrow. The fish are in real rough shape. I’ll be amazed if they survive the night. Darn...

I added two air stones to another double air pump. The 750gph koralia makes a whirlpool with that little water so I had to unplug it.

As for the pipe size, I agree. As you can see in this pic from just now I added some small diameter pipe for small fish like firefish and wrasse a few weeks back but that first pic was really old.

Thanks again all. Hope they make it. Really would be a bummer to lose than cyaneus flasher wrasse.