Losing too many fish in QT !

[Reef Box]

So I work in a hospital (since 1988) and when someone comes in and we suspect cancer we just put them on chemo and radiation therapy. We don't do any tests to confirm cancer, we just start treatment(chemo,radiation).

So I see what you did there, Imagine now that we are not talking about cancer but something more along the lines of sayyyyyy PARVO (cancer is not contagious like ICH, Marine Velvet, Parasites, etc.) and instead of treating for it we just drop a carrier dog in a yard with a few hundred other dogs and see how it goes. Well, it wipes out the entire population within a couple days....I'm sure the actual loss is not a big deal because we elected not to put the last pup through the stress of treatment and all the other puppies where fine when we previously put them in the yard. Besides, he made it through the initial observation period with out any signs of illness and there was no reason to treat for anything ...Makes complete sense right? Look I'm not knocking anyones particular process for whatever THEY chose to do. I however choose the QT and treat absolutely everything I put into my tank because I have had several complete disasters over the last 2 decades of my own experience.

For the record I work in a Prison. We, as well as the population are required to be treated for certain communicable (and often ICH-like) contagious diseases BECAUSE in the confines of the environment we live and work in if we elect to not do so the rate of which disease spreads is faster than can be controlled. If I even come in contact with bodily fluids of an Inmate I am taken to the hospital and treated with a "cocktail" and QT'd from my family for several days to several weeks. Not because I I know what I Will contract but because of what CAN I Contract! I feel like the confines or our tanks are at the very least relatively similar.

 

[HB AL]

Man things are really getting off topic with clueless comparisons here with people comparing cancer to ich or other fish diseases. I had cancer 30 years ago and survived because of the treatments, whereas if I woulda not been treated death was 100% a sure thing. Fish with ich, etc... is not a death sentence, most will probably survive without treatment if introduced to a proper environment and fed good food. Treating fish with copper for more than a month that showed no signs of disease, coupled with a small tank and probably crappy water conditions in the quarantine tank= dead fish that would add survived and lived a good life if they had gone into a healthy dt.

 

[Qasimja]

i prefer not to treat with fish with copper if i dont have to so i treat my fish in QT with metro and prazi and monitor for ich or velvet may not work for everyone but it works for me

 

[tnw50cal]

So I see what you did there, Imagine now that we are not talking about cancer but something more along the lines of sayyyyyy PARVO (cancer is not contagious like ICH, Marine Velvet, Parasites, etc.) and instead of treating for it we just drop a carrier dog in a yard with a few hundred other dogs and see how it goes. Well, it wipes out the entire population within a couple days....I'm sure the actual loss is not a big deal because we elected not to put the last pup through the stress of treatment and all the other puppies where fine when we previously put them in the yard. Besides, he made it through the initial observation period with out any signs of illness and there was no reason to treat for anything ...Makes complete sense right? Look I'm not knocking anyones particular process for whatever THEY chose to do. I however choose the QT and treat absolutely everything I put into my tank because I have had several complete disasters over the last 2 decades of my own experience.

For the record I work in a Prison. We, as well as the population are required to be treated for certain communicable (and often ICH-like) contagious diseases BECAUSE in the confines of the environment we live and work in if we elect to not do so the rate of which disease spreads is faster than can be controlled. If I even come in contact with bodily fluids of an Inmate I am taken to the hospital and treated with a "cocktail" and QT'd from my family for several days to several weeks. Not because I I know what I Will contract but because of what CAN I Contract! I feel like the confines or our tanks are at the very least relatively similar.

No you didn't see were I was going with the cancer thing. Sorry I didn't pick PARVO so it would be more plain to you---but we don't get many people in the hospital with parvo. If fact some people on this forum might not know what parvo is if they have never owned a dog. Most people KNOW what cancer is. So that's what I used as a example.
I put the new fish in a QT BECAUSE it MIGHT have a contagious disease. While in QT I DON"T just treat it for a disease it MIGHT have. I watch it very carefully to see if the disease presents itself THEN I treat for it.
The treatment we give our fish causes stress. Stress in a fish can cause disease. Why treat a fish for a disease(my cancer analogy) that it doesn't have because it might?

I do understand that some put a fish in a QT and treat it for everything it might have and if it lives thru the treatment it then goes in the DT. That's what the OP was asking as his fish don't make it thru the treatment in his QT and therefore never make it to his DT.

 

[huckjai]

I think the most important thing with QT is the quality of the fish. I've only gotten my fish from the lfs. I have had a few die on me, but it appeared to be more from stress than from any disease.

In QT i do tank transfer method for possible ich and just monitor. I don't do copper because it just causes more stress on the fish. I don't like the idea of heavily medicating fish just in case something can be present. I do have copper on hand in case I get a confirmed case of a disease. I treat my fish with prazo and metro while doing TTM though.

I know people have always done copper for QT and have been successful and I know people who don't have that success. Sometimes it just doesn't work for some people. Maybe try your quarantine process without copper. See if that yields better results for you.

For me, I pick my fish from the lfs, and knock on wood, I haven't had any with brook or velvet. Both my lfs say that brook and velvet is very rare for them. So that's why I do TTM for ich, as ich seems the most common.

If you can get your livestock from a good source in the least stressful environment, chances of success will go way up. Heavily medicating a stressed fish is hard on them. As others suggested, try to bring up therapeutical copper levels gradually.

 

[tnw50cal]

Man things are really getting off topic with clueless comparisons here with people comparing cancer to ich or other fish diseases. I had cancer 30 years ago and survived because of the treatments, whereas if I woulda not been treated death was 100% a sure thing. Fish with ich, etc... is not a death sentence, most will probably survive without treatment if introduced to a proper environment and fed good food. Treating fish with copper for more than a month that showed no signs of disease, coupled with a small tank and probably crappy water conditions in the quarantine tank= dead fish that would add survived and lived a good life if they had gone into a healthy dt.

Clueless comparisions? ( I am sorry, I have been taught that the average person thinks,reads and speaks at a 8th grade level and I need to bring it down to that level)(Oh dear lord I'm not say that's you)
So you survived cancer 30 years ago because of the treatments. But you had cancer right? How do you know you had cancer, did they do tests to confirm you had cancer? Or did they just treat you for cancer because you might have it?
This is what I was getting at. Do we treat for ICH because the fish might have it? Or do we treat for ICH because we know the fish has it?
The OP states that he treats his fish for ICH and other fish diseases without KNOWING if they have it or not. He says most don't make it thru his treatment. Maybe it's time he tried something else.
I understand the just drop it in the DT. That might work for 10 fish and then you drop in #11 and #6 thru 11 dies.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’m just going to leave my signature here.

These fish and many more thrive thanks to QT.

 

[Cwentz758]

I don’t trust myself with copper. So I purchase my fish at the lfs and they keep it in their tanks with copper for about 14 days before I bring it home and drop it in QT. I’ll watch for a few days then treat with metro and prime for a week then monitor for another week before adding it to my tank.

 

[Big G]

It's been a variety. Powder Blue Tang ( I understand they are harder but I did have one make it through) Yellow tang, Goldenhead sleeper goby, Diamond goby, CB Butterfly (which I also know is next to impossible so I've given up until I'm better at this) I know there have been a few others but I don't recall right now.

Here's a wonderful posting that may help you: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/

 

[Reef Box]

That's what the OP was asking as his fish don't make it thru the treatment in his QT and therefore never make it to his DT.

For the record, I am the OP. I did see and understand your comparison, I merely have a difference of opinion. My point is that any fish can be a carrier and not exhibit signs of having any parasite or disease. Adding that fish to a tank with potentially $1000s worth of other fish that are not as tolerant to the disease or parasite regardless of how pristine the water conditions are could be catastrophic. The old belief that all tanks have ICH and all we can hope to do is manage it is absolutely untrue and it is absolutely attainable to have a tank free of parasites and disease, bottom line. The fact that I choose to QT and prophylactically treat for known common issues prior to introducing anything into my DT does not make me wrong. The only thing I was hoping to gain from this post is a better understanding and possible practice from others who have similar goals and or who similarly treat for their tanks. However I do appreciate all opinions in regards to general treatments even if I choose not to adopt them for myself.

 

[Hallowhead]

Two things that improved my success rate drastically.. adding a ATO as it was such a small amount of water ~ 10 gallons. Checking salinity daily and than using well seeded sponges to get a good bacteria colony going

 

[Reef Box]

Two things that improved my success rate drastically.. adding a ATO as it was such a small amount of water ~ 10 gallons. Checking salinity daily and than using well seeded sponges to get a good bacteria colony going

Both already in play for the most part

 

[Frey]

So i too am using the brightwell copper as that is what i had on hand when i decided to take all the fish out of my system and treat for the ich i have always battled. Going forward however i will use the copper power as i have had interesting results when using the hanna checker to measure the copper. More to come on this.
So i know someone earlier said it needs to be at 2.0 but for this, that is incorrect and if i have read correctly. 20 is therapeutic dose for this brand and over .25 is toxic.
So i started with 28 fish. I lost an 8 year old yellow tang to a bacteria infection during the first few days. I also lost a diamond gobie that jumped. Other than that haven't had any issues with any of the fish. All have ate like champs and actually now look better than ever. The only issue i had is during the first treatment towards the end the hanna checker was giving me readings of 5.4 at the highest and all over the place (numerous test done in a row to try and correct). This is why i want to use the copper power going forward. .20 to .25 doesn't leave much room for error but back to my point at some point in the process i must have dipped below the .20. Took copper out and within the 2 weeks i was planning to parazi and finish up the qt a few fish came back down with ich.
So i am now ending the 2nd cycle and haven't had any signs since the first week or so.
I have ATO, a good size sump, but i would say when using this type of copper make very, very slow adjustments. I have tried it in the past and followed the directions only to kill my fish in a day or 2. This time i did it in like 10-20% increments over 5-6 days.
I will share a photo of my setup.

 

[Frey]

Also i use the ammonia alert badge and the instant ocean bacteria in a bottle. Almost as soon as you add copper to a cycled system you will get the ammonia spike. Using this i have been able to keep it under control.

 

[Frey]

And to add to the discussions above in case anyone is wondering why i took all my fish out spent 300 dollars on such a large qt, lost one of my favorite and oldest fish.
I always wanted acantherus tangs. I have tried PB's and even an achilies over the years. They lasted a few weeks my Achilles lived for about 6 months until the ich must have just finally been too much for him. So i gave up on adding anything to my tanks fish wise for a few years. The older fish would deal with an outbreak here and there and no big deal, but i always wondered when i went to the tank if i would lose one of my buddies. So tired of that always haunting me and not being able to keep the types of fish i wanted as i did not want them to perish i decided to qt and go fallow.
20 years ago i would have rolled eyes to anyone doing this, thinking nature would create immunity or the fish were just not in good health. Now with all the advancements and better understanding of parasites and other diseases i will go with the qt everything approach so not only my fish but corals and inverts as well. I am not rich, it didn't cost much more than a pricey coral or 2 to set up these tanks, but if it saves the lives of my fish and the new ones i wish to keep its well worth it. One fish with velvet in my display would have killed 4 times what a qt cost if not more. I also feel its better for the fish over the long run. So while not everyone believes in qt, wants to qt etc...to each their own. I am done dealing with diseases that can easily be prevented and i am not looking back

 

[Paul B]

Now with all the advancements and better understanding of parasites and other diseases

I assume we know more, but just as many fish now die from these things as they did in the beginning of this hobby when I assume we knew less.
The disease forum is full of them.

The fish themselves are not happy. I assume of course because I really don't know.
I have learned a couple of things in my 60 years doing this and the most important thing I feel I learned is that most of the time fish die from stress.

It could be parasites, bacteria or some unknown ailment, but ultimately, it was stress that caused it.

You can quarantine or not quarantine, if the fish gets a little to stressed, it will die no matter how many medications you throw at it.

Have a great day.

 

[Frey]

I agree Paul. I tried to keep up with husbandry and like i said my fish lived in the buy and drop tank for 8-9 years, however my success rate with the more "sensitive" fish or most new fish was not very good. The stress of shipping may be to blame as all of our local shops have closed up so i buy online as well. We have one box store left and their tanks are full of brook, velvet and only god knows what else. I will not purchase anything but dry goods from them if they have a good price.
I added a Powder blue, brown, and lt tang as well as a few others to this batch when i was quarantining and these fish have done better than ever before. It very well could be due to separation as i chose their tank mates for this process which reduced stress or their could be something about giving them one less problem to fight off by getting rid of the parasites for them. Its just my opinion and mine alone that this is now working better for me and for the animals i am trying to care for

 

[Paul B]

I came home 10 minutes with a really nice little angelfish that I have never seen before.
I don't normally like tangs or angels but if I see something that I have never had or if it is rare, I get it.
It is in my tank now hiding under some sponge but I am pretty sure he will be out in a few hours looking for food.

I hope so anyway. He is pretty small but very colorful. It sounds like Artichoke or something like that. I don't really care what kind of angelfish it is and won't look it up. It's a fish, thats all I need to know.

Of course I wouldn't dare stress him more with any type of quarantine or observation. I will observe him when he comes out in a little while.


OhNo, He got bitten in half......

Oh wait. No that is just a snail shell. He is fine and is already picking stuff off the sponge.

 

[Paul B]

I got sort of a picture using a flashlight. No, it is not a French Angel and can't even speak French

 

[Frey]

Nice looking fish. I have never seen one just like that either. Good luck.