Lost all fish to Velvet, losing all shrimp and corals to I have no idea what

[Nataleeia]

matters what shrimp you are talking about and what they will clean. Peppermint shrimp are great to eradicate pest anemones like aiptasia, pistol shrimp wont clean anything up but has an interesting relationship with gobies, while cleaner shrimp may pick some parasites and dead skin from fish, but they wont prevent every infection

The pistol shrimp, thats exactly the reason we want it. We love watching a watchman goby and a pistol shrimp buddy up so are hoping we get the same behaviour in our setup. So we will also definitely be going for a goby.
We originally went with a cleaner shrimp in general to help clean the tank although I believe they actually get their names from cleaning fish so I may have not really picked the right shrimp anyway. But if they do help with algae on rocks/sand then I was thinking it would help. I'm just trying to make the tank a self looking after type of eco system which I guess is everyones goal, so it was my idea for clean up crew although since adding the snails, they do a pretty amazing job on algae on rocks.

Royal Grammas are shy and like their caves during the day. In a small tank they feel the need to defend the cave. In a small community tank this can be a problem.

a peppermint shrimp would be better suited.

The Royal Gramma was my partner, he loved the look of it and we looked into it and it said it was quite calm. It did mention defending their cave which we thought maybe OK although in practice, we did see this sort of showing at times so maybe a Gramma is not the best choice. It's such a shame, perhaps if our tank was bigger, but at 30g yes it may be an issue. We also don't have too much rock so not too many caves to choose from. Originally it was a dottyback that he saw and loved the two tone pink/yellow look but we asked the store and they told us quite rightly that dottybacks are aggressive and the gramma was more chilled out. So that was kind of the thinking there, but if its off limits, then its off limits.

Once well establish a pistol and goby pair and other small gobies are what you will want. No angels, tangs or other large fish.

We will avoid large fish, being a nano tank we always wanted to stay small with them anyway. The plan with the tang originally was grow it up for a while and when it got too big sell it on to someone with a bigger home, but again, we were uninformed and I can now see, thats just not good practice, its cruel, will not do.

and even peppermint shrimp can go after corals so you have to watch them. Almost anything you add can both benefit or hurt the tank, sometimes just personality of individual fish/invert matter. I had a regal tang that liked to bite my acropora (bali slimer was its favorite), this hobby is complicated lol

So very true, this is what my partner has noticed. I've been into the hobby a little for years but just not had a setup in a while, my partner is just discovering it all and he's noticing how complex it all is to make sure all the tank and fish/other live stuffs work together. He is fascinated by it though. We don't really see this major issue we've hit as like a huge problem, its a learning experience. I do feel guilty knowing we are playing with lives here so this is really hitting home that we need to be correct about everything and this is why we've decided to engage you fine folk as we want to make sure next time, nothing dies.

 

[Nataleeia]

Reason for asking was to see if the wrong silicone was used. Orange pellet stuff is probably GFO. It'll take phosphates out.

Oh I see what you mean. No this was a pre made tank, I'd never dream of making one myself It would definitely leak
GFO? Get the .... out? We want phosphates then? so take it out? Could that have caused some of our issues possibly? Would it explain why our tank currently looks, for want of a better phrase...like ****

 

[reefinatl]

Oh I see what you mean. No this was a pre made tank, I'd never dream of making one myself It would definitely leak
GFO? Get the .... out? We want phosphates then? so take it out? Could that have caused some of our issues possibly? Would it explain why our tank currently looks, for want of a better phrase...like ****

Granulated ferrous oxide, fancy name for ground up rust. It's just a method to keep phosphate levels down which in turn can help keep algae in check. Lump it in with skimmers, filters, bio pellets, refugium, etc. As one of many means of nutrient control and all have positives and negatives. It's definitely not the cause of death.

I did have a similar issue in a biocube build recently. In over a 15 years of experience in the hobby it was the first build I ever broke down and rebooted completely. I believe the rock that was used was the source of some kind of contamination. It was very dense and similar to what would be used in a freshwater tank. It was not leeching copper but after doing all new sand and rock the build stabilized and is doing well. It was crazy I could take corals from my 90g put them in the cube and they be dead or nearly dead within a week. Clownfish copepods and algae were the only things that'd survive.

 

[Nataleeia]

I was a bit unsure what to show in terms of pics. Its kind of hard to know what would be best to show so I'll just show you guys a pic of each coral (they've been in the tank for 2 days and look terrible upto when they arrived)
And a few pics around the tank of the general state of the algae and skimmer etc to see if it just looks awful, maybe you will spot something obvious.

But our plan today was to get rid of that stainless steel clip that appears to be slightly rusting and do a 25% water change paying close attention to ph and salinity to try and get the params more correct. We did some tests today and the params are apparently not good. I don't have figures right now, partner just gone out and they have them. Unless of course this is a bad idea and anyone has any better advice?

 

[Nataleeia]

Is this brown algae diatoms? I've read about diatoms and dinoflagettes but I thought the brown was diatoms here and "not a problem"
Or does this straight up look like bad oxygenation or something?

 

[Nataleeia]

This is the only coral that's currently doing "fine"
He's been in the tank for a few weeks

 

[Nataleeia]

Also, just thought since you mentioned the contaminated rock...We also broke up a small amount of the rock to go in the filtration media (we cut a section out of the sponge to put the rock in). I was told this is good for starting the tank but I'm not sure and it may be relevant so thought I'd include this info

 

[Nataleeia]

Granulated ferrous oxide, fancy name for ground up rust. It's just a method to keep phosphate levels down which in turn can help keep algae in check. Lump it in with skimmers, filters, bio pellets, refugium, etc. As one of many means of nutrient control and all have positives and negatives. It's definitely not the cause of death.

Just searched it up and read this: -

3. GFO Dust is Damaging to Fish and Corals​

Issue: GFO dust can cause irritation to fish gills and coral polyps.


Solution: Carefully rinse your GFO prior to use. If using GFO in a media reactor, catch all the tank water that comes out of the reactor until the water runs clear. Replenish all the water removed with fresh saltwater. If you are performing a water change at the same time as your GFO reactor maintenance, this is easy to do. As an alternative, set up the reactor in a bucket or sink and run freshwater through it until the water runs clear.

I don't believe we did rinse the GFO prior to use, I think we just put it in, same with the carbon, I'd have to double check this with my partner to be certain though

 

[mnl119]

Is this brown algae diatoms? I've read about diatoms and dinoflagettes but I thought the brown was diatoms here and "not a problem"
Or does this straight up look like bad oxygenation or something?

Picture 8 (on the PVC tube) looks like the beginnings of hair algae. The others look like brown algae and are usually the first thing to develop after the cycle gets established. Both are generally good signs that the cycle has established.

 

[Nataleeia]

Picture 8 (on the PVC tube) looks like the beginnings of hair algae. The others look like brown algae and are usually the first thing to develop after the cycle gets established. Both are generally good signs that the cycle has established.

OK so thats one I should probably not worry about. Well thats relieving at least part of my system is possibly going well

 

[Nataleeia]

OK, we've found the problem. It's salinity. We finally learned how to use a refractometer and calibrate it...it was very easy and I feel stupid I didn't try it sooner.

One caveat I would like to add, I couldn't get hold of the 1.026 calibration solution today but I have used distilled water to calibrate a 0 reading which i have read gives a pretty accurate result, and first check I did was tested brand new saltwater from my LFS today and it tests at 1.024 so it looks like the calibration is good.

So we had been testing all along with a hydrometer and we thought we were around 1.024 and as we've always used salt water from the LFS we thought there would be no reason for any major drop.
Oh how wrong we were.

1.016!

I retested this to make sure after retesting the LFS water, all figures check out second time round.

So, given the facts, we're about 0.01 away from where we should be which is no doubt whats killing everything, also explains why the shrimps specifically were so quick to go downhill compared to other creatures as everywhere seems to say they can be very temperamental to salinity changes.

I have marine salt here, do I just add some to get levels back up?

And most important of all, how did it get to this stage? if we've used nothing but salted RODI from the LFS, how would it have dropped? How can we avoid it in the future? Also, could it be the reason for the velvet breakout?

 

[mnl119]

OK, we've found the problem. It's salinity. We finally learned how to use a refractometer and calibrate it...it was very easy and I feel stupid I didn't try it sooner.

One caveat I would like to add, I couldn't get hold of the 1.026 calibration solution today but I have used distilled water to calibrate a 0 reading which i have read gives a pretty accurate result, and first check I did was tested brand new saltwater from my LFS today and it tests at 1.024 so it looks like the calibration is good.

So we had been testing all along with a hydrometer and we thought we were around 1.024 and as we've always used salt water from the LFS we thought there would be no reason for any major drop.
Oh how wrong we were.

1.016!

I retested this to make sure after retesting the LFS water, all figures check out second time round.

So, given the facts, we're about 0.01 away from where we should be which is no doubt whats killing everything, also explains why the shrimps specifically were so quick to go downhill compared to other creatures as everywhere seems to say they can be very temperamental to salinity changes.

I have marine salt here, do I just add some to get levels back up?

And most important of all, how did it get to this stage? if we've used nothing but salted RODI from the LFS, how would it have dropped? How can we avoid it in the future? Also, could it be the reason for the velvet breakout?

1.016, while very low, is not much less than fish get shipped from the major suppliers with. Reef Beuties states they ship with 1.018-1.019. With that said, get it up soon. These levels could definitely explain a velvet outbreak if the fish were not acclimated slowly since they may have seen quite the salinity change/shock. Also corals would definitely not be happy at this level.

Do not add salt directly to the tank. You may shock your cycle by doing this and have ammonia problems. Mix say 5 gallons at a salinity level of 1.050 (~70 ppt), and do a water change with this. This is about double the amount of recommended salt as the manufacturer suggests to get to 1.026. Adding the new high-salinity water slowly over the course of say 1/2 hour (similar to breaking in a new fish). I think you said you had 36 gallons, so that would end up at about 1.020. Still low, but you can gradually add saturated salt solution over a longer period.

Not sure how it dropped to that level. Maybe LFS made a mistake?

As far as calibrating goes, I too calibrated at 0 before my standard solution came. I had to readjust after calibrating at 1.026, though it was only a couple points.

 

[Nataleeia]

1.016, while very low, is not much less than fish get shipped from the major suppliers with. Reef Beuties states they ship with 1.018-1.019. With that said, get it up soon. These levels could definitely explain a velvet outbreak if the fish were not acclimated slowly since they may have seen quite the salinity change/shock. Also corals would definitely not be happy at this level.

Do not add salt directly to the tank. You may shock your cycle by doing this and have ammonia problems. Mix say 5 gallons at a salinity level of 1.050 (~70 ppt), and do a water change with this. This is about double the amount of recommended salt as the manufacturer suggests to get to 1.026. Adding the new high-salinity water slowly over the course of say 1/2 hour (similar to breaking in a new fish). I think you said you had 36 gallons, so that would end up at about 1.020. Still low, but you can gradually add saturated salt solution over a longer period.

Not sure how it dropped to that level. Maybe LFS made a mistake?

As far as calibrating goes, I too calibrated at 0 before my standard solution came. I had to readjust after calibrating at 1.026, though it was only a couple points.

This is great stuff, thank you

We've been having a bit of a think. One lesson we have learnt from this is, we have now got a diary so we can record all important things daily. Rookie mistake.
So we tried to think how it could happen and we have hopefully figured it out. There was one time my partner did a water change and the LFS were out of saltwater so she got RO and added the salt. The timing also coincides pretty much with when things started going south. But since we were not testing the salinity properly, we think she severely under salted this batch of water for the change, this must be how it dropped so much.

Good to hear that calibrating should be pretty close at 0, we will still buy the 1.026 solution as you say, may need slight adjustment then, but we are close enough to know we screwed up pretty big Never mind, lessons have been learned, onto hopefully more successful reef keeping.

As for the plan, we made a little plan while waiting for a response and it was pretty similar to what you suggested so I'll see what you think...
We picked up 25 litres of saltwater today at the LFS so I did a little bit of a calculation based on the salinity of the tank, the new saltwater and the instructions on the salt. It may be way off so may need to adjust later, but I thought I'd try as follows: -
Salt instructions said to use 37-40g per litre for fresh RO to hit around 1.026. I divided 38.5g (assuming the mid point) by 1026 and multiplied by 1016 giving me ~38.2g so from this I gauged the difference per litre between the salinity I was at and the salinity I wanted was 0.3g. I then multiplied this by the volume of my tank, minus the amount I would be changing (25 litres) giving me 0.3g x 90 litres and got 27g so this is the amount of salt I added to the new saltwater which was reading 1.024.
I've stuck an air stone in the bottle overnight to mix it up a bit and tomorrow intended on reading the salinity before then probably going ahead with a water change (unless I've really screwed up the calculating or if it just doesn't work that way). After testing the salinity I'll heat the water up to tank temp before doing the change.

One thing I'm now thinking though given what you've said about still acclimating a bit I think maybe drain the 25 litres then slowly add the new 25 litres of higher salinity water over half hour to an hour?

Thanks everyone who has contributed. Fingers crossed we're on the right path now to turning this around.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Is this brown algae diatoms? I've read about diatoms and dinoflagettes but I thought the brown was diatoms here and "not a problem"
Or does this straight up look like bad oxygenation or something?

Looks like early stage dinoflagellates and you will want to confirm. When lights go out, and go back in the morning, you will notice it has decreased but within 2-3 hours of lights on it has resumed or gotten heavier. If so, likely dinos. Reducing white lights will always slow down cyano-dino-diatoms-algaes.

 

[mnl119]

This is great stuff, thank you

We've been having a bit of a think. One lesson we have learnt from this is, we have now got a diary so we can record all important things daily. Rookie mistake.
So we tried to think how it could happen and we have hopefully figured it out. There was one time my partner did a water change and the LFS were out of saltwater so she got RO and added the salt. The timing also coincides pretty much with when things started going south. But since we were not testing the salinity properly, we think she severely under salted this batch of water for the change, this must be how it dropped so much.

Good to hear that calibrating should be pretty close at 0, we will still buy the 1.026 solution as you say, may need slight adjustment then, but we are close enough to know we screwed up pretty big Never mind, lessons have been learned, onto hopefully more successful reef keeping.

As for the plan, we made a little plan while waiting for a response and it was pretty similar to what you suggested so I'll see what you think...
We picked up 25 litres of saltwater today at the LFS so I did a little bit of a calculation based on the salinity of the tank, the new saltwater and the instructions on the salt. It may be way off so may need to adjust later, but I thought I'd try as follows: -
Salt instructions said to use 37-40g per litre for fresh RO to hit around 1.026. I divided 38.5g (assuming the mid point) by 1026 and multiplied by 1016 giving me ~38.2g so from this I gauged the difference per litre between the salinity I was at and the salinity I wanted was 0.3g. I then multiplied this by the volume of my tank, minus the amount I would be changing (25 litres) giving me 0.3g x 90 litres and got 27g so this is the amount of salt I added to the new saltwater which was reading 1.024.
I've stuck an air stone in the bottle overnight to mix it up a bit and tomorrow intended on reading the salinity before then probably going ahead with a water change (unless I've really screwed up the calculating or if it just doesn't work that way). After testing the salinity I'll heat the water up to tank temp before doing the change.

One thing I'm now thinking though given what you've said about still acclimating a bit I think maybe drain the 25 litres then slowly add the new 25 litres of higher salinity water over half hour to an hour?

Thanks everyone who has contributed. Fingers crossed we're on the right path now to turning this around.

I think your plan sounds good. Just be sure to check the salinity once you get done, and after the water has circulated for a while (mixed).

 

[Nataleeia]

Looks like early stage dinoflagellates and you will want to confirm. When lights go out, and go back in the morning, you will notice it has decreased but within 2-3 hours of lights on it has resumed or gotten heavier. If so, likely dinos. Reducing white lights will always slow down cyano-dino-diatoms-algaes.

Actually this increased significantly since putting in the new light. So we've increased white light...speeding it up I guess.

My partner this evening shifted all the sand around and angled the powerhead to mix up all areas as we wanted to circulate and try to get some of the crap out into the filter. So it looks much better now but I'll keep updating about the dinos and we'll go from there. Wondering if this also may be one of the things that may get better once we sort the salinity

 

[vetteguy53081]

Actually this increased significantly since putting in the new light. So we've increased white light...speeding it up I guess.

My partner this evening shifted all the sand around and angled the powerhead to mix up all areas as we wanted to circulate and try to get some of the crap out into the filter. So it looks much better now but I'll keep updating about the dinos and we'll go from there. Wondering if this also may be one of the things that may get better once we sort the salinity

Stirring Not advised. When it settles- siphon and/or net all the loose particles.
If tomorrow morning after lights are on, you noticed " its back" - Follow this:
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

 

[Nataleeia]

Stirring Not advised. When it settles- siphon and/or net all the loose particles.
If tomorrow morning after lights are on, you noticed " its back" - Follow this:
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

Awesome advice, thank you.

So this morning we've had the lights on for 5 hours full intensity and the algae has not returned from the stir.

So far it looks very good, and we've retested the salinity this morning and that also seems higher now. Now we are reading 1.018.
So at this stage, with it not coming back, does that mean we are now thinking not dinos?
We were thinking our circulation needs work, we've been moving around our flow via our powerhead and spray bar but we also have another powerhead got delivered today so that will be going in to also help with this.

No fish to feed so no worries there, still fallow, still staying fallow for 6 weeks at least after the correction.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You would have to drink a heck of a lot… and even then the claims are dubious. The actual issue is bacterial depending on storage/delivery due to the lack of chlorine.