Low alk / high calcium issue

[william.sting]

One more anecdote:

I'm using Randy's two part additive, but not in equal proportion. Initially, my alkalinity was so high it was harming some of my corals, while my calcium was to low (situation number three in the first if the aforementioned articles). I was able to get the calcium up, but the alkalinity wouldn't budge.

Now I had stopped using my ro unit, and was using my tap water. I had testing results that showed the water was safe for use in my reef aquarium. The catch was that we are on city well water pumped up from a sedimentary rock reservoir formed at the bottom of an ancient inland sea millions of years ago. So due to hardness issues, I have a water softener for my tap water.

I didn't think my tap water could be high enough in anything to seriously throw off my chemistry. However, I tested it and discovered that the tap water was of the charts to high in alkalinity with minimal calcium. Duh. The ion exchange resin if my softener strips out calcium ions in exchange for sodium, while leaving the carbonate level unchanged. The sodium remaining in my water is so low relative to sea water, that I can address build up with water changes.

The fix was to perform a little stoichiometry to calculate how much I needed to reduce the carbonate portion of the additive to achieve balance. Low and behold, after increasing calcium in the tank to balance the high alkalinity and switching to the new mix ratio, the calcium and carbonate levels have stayed in range. In fact, my alkalinity has measured 8dkh and my calcium at 410ppm every time I measured it ever since.

I suppose I could have solved the problem through trial and error, gradually altering the mix ratio until I achieved balance. The way I did it - understanding the problem and taking direct corrective action - probably solved it faster which was important to save my corals.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Another thing to keep in mind when using tap water: unless you have an analysis done on what actually comes out of your tap, it's possible that the water you're receiving is actually worse than what comes from the source. The water has to travel through lots of pipes to get to you, some of which might be lead and copper (the latter being particularly problematic in reef aquaria). Tap water is not inherently good or bad. The trouble is that there are far too many variables for the average reefer to address in order to ensure it's safe for our tanks. Worse yet, even tap water that is "safe" one day could change over time and be much more harmful to your reef a few months down the road. Even in your case @william.sting where the water was "safe" for your tank, it was "harming" your corals. Contaminants are only one part of the messy and complex equation. In almost all cases, it's easier to just use RO/DI, even considering filter changes and replacements.

Sorry to threadjack. Just wanted to advise caution to any other reefers that might be considering using tap water. This hobby is more about keeping clean water than it is keeping fish and corals. I'm all about cutting costs and saving money, but water purity isn't the place to do it.

 

[william.sting]

Another thing to keep in mind when using tap water: unless you have an analysis done on what actually comes out of your tap, it's possible that the water you're receiving is actually worse than what comes from the source. The water has to travel through lots of pipes to get to you, some of which might be lead and copper (the latter being particularly problematic in reef aquaria). Tap water is not inherently good or bad. The trouble is that there are far too many variables for the average reefer to address in order to ensure it's safe for our tanks. Worse yet, even tap water that is "safe" one day could change over time and be much more harmful to your reef a few months down the road. Even in your case @william.sting where the water was "safe" for your tank, it was "harming" your corals. Contaminants are only one part of the messy and complex equation. In almost all cases, it's easier to just use RO/DI, even considering filter changes and replacements.

Sorry to threadjack. Just wanted to advise caution to any other reefers that might be considering using tap water. This hobby is more about keeping clean water than it is keeping fish and corals. I'm all about cutting costs and saving money, but water purity isn't the place to do it.

Absolutely. My decision to use tap was based on cost, my own test results, and the results from an independent lab. Yes they could shift, and I periodically retest. Ultimately, for my water supply in a relatively affluent Chicago suburb with a reliable high quality water source I decided that it was worth the risk.

I didn't mean to suggest that that was the way to go for most or even any other reefers. I was simply illustrating how one might use the two articles I mentioned to solve a chemistry problem - one which I was the cause of mind you.

My approach is working and my animals are doing well. I save money because my tap water already is an alkalinity supplement.

To be clear though, my story also contains an example of why you need to be super careful if you choose to follow a similar path.

Thanks for helping me clarify that.

 

[Djkoleohn]

The first thing to do in such a scenario is to determine how much you are actually dosing in terms of dKH or meq/L per day. We would use that to determine if the dose seems excessive.

To calculate that, we need the tank water volume. What is it?

Thanks for all the help everyone has been giving . So I just tested my alk levels a little while ago and it has dropped once again , now it’s at 7.0 dkh while dosing 180ml of b-ionic alk part 1 . I’m using a dosing pump that doses it throughout the day ..... as for my water volume , I’d estimate it at about 90 gallons of water . I have a 90 gallon display with 30 gallon sump , but with rocks I’d say it’s about 90 all together ..... should I stop dosing all together and dose baking soda ? After reading the article is seems like my issue is fugue 4 on the article which says to use baking soda


Today’s tests show
Alk 7.0 ( dosed 180ml of esv)
Cal over 500
Mag 1425 ( no dosing)
Po4 0.10 ( ran gfo for a little bit to help my algae reactor )
Ph between 8.2-8.4 hard to read test
Salinity is 1.025
Temp 78

 

[Djkoleohn]

If the total water volume is 100 gallons, then the daily dose is 4 dKH, nd that is high for such a tank

All that raw rock is likely acting as a seed crystal for calcium carbonate precipitation.

Here's a copy and paste commentary from another person with a similar situation:

It is not uncommon to have substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate, especially in newer tanks with lots of raw calcium carbonate surfaces to nucleate more precipitation.

There are a lot of things that can be done to reduce precipitation, but the easiest is to lower the pH (use baking soda or a two part based on baking soda for alk, not a higher pH system based on carbonate, which the B-ionic you are using is) and to lower your alk goal for a while to let the precipitation surface "cool off" and get coated with the stuff that normally reduces precipitation (phosphate, organics, magnesium, etc.).

I'd target just 7.0 dKH for a while. Everything is fine at that alk, and consumption will be lower. When you do additions, add to a very high flow area (not into a powerhead, but maybe just after it). Don't dose next to a heater, since calcium carbonate will precipitate onto it.

If you want calcium lower, just don't dose it for a while. The salt mix likely had excessive levels (assuming the test was correct).

Sorry somehow missed this message

 

[Mike Reef Addict]

Thanks for all the help everyone has been giving . So I just tested my alk levels a little while ago and it has dropped once again , now it’s at 7.0 dkh while dosing 180ml of b-ionic alk part 1 . I’m using a dosing pump that doses it throughout the day ..... as for my water volume , I’d estimate it at about 90 gallons of water . I have a 90 gallon display with 30 gallon sump , but with rocks I’d say it’s about 90 all together ..... should I stop dosing all together and dose baking soda ? After reading the article is seems like my issue is fugue 4 on the article which says to use baking soda


Today’s tests show
Alk 7.0 ( dosed 180ml of esv)
Cal over 500
Mag 1425 ( no dosing)
Po4 0.10 ( ran gfo for a little bit to help my algae reactor )
Ph between 8.2-8.4 hard to read test
Salinity is 1.025
Temp 78

Personally I'd just stop dosing anything for a few days test every few days and see what it does.

When was the last water change?

 

[Mike Reef Addict]

Sorry somehow missed this message

Lol so did I

 

[Djkoleohn]

Personally I'd just stop dosing anything for a few days test every few days and see what it does.

When was the last water change?

Last water change was last Sunday . I’ve been doing 10 gallons biWeekly using reef crystals

 

[Mike Reef Addict]

Last water change was last Sunday . I’ve been doing 10 gallons biWeekly using reef crystals

Right on that's what I've been using it varies a lot I'm thinking of swiching myself I've read that if you don't mix the whole bag/can/box the levels won't be what the bag says and thays per instant ocean... Since I went back to a bare bottom I've been doing 20% a week an my Calcium has slowly dropped it was like 650+ salifert. Going to do 10g tomorrow test pre and post WC see what I get. I've got a cool app I can log params in livestock maintence notes etc the tank was perfect too.

 

[Djkoleohn]

My tank is also bare bottom , I’m gonna do a 15 gallon water change tmrw and test the water before putting it in my tank . Now I’m curious to see where the levels of the new water are at

 

[Mike Reef Addict]

My tank is also bare bottom , I’m gonna do a 15 gallon water change tmrw and test the water before putting it in my tank . Now I’m curious to see where the levels of the new water are at

BB is how I learned to keep a reef 20+ years ago went withba sandbed an never ever ever ever never again I was doing 10g biweekly vacuuming etc an the first time I've ever had cyano went BB and moved the DT into a 55g from a 40g long it is so much happier lost some bacteria and had "new tank diotoms" for about two weeks the other day I seen green algae am was like Hell ya! Lol been doing 10g a weel since I switched tanks an I couldn't be happier I can see the detritus and vaccume it out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I do not see a reason to think a water change or a new salt mix is going to be helpful.

 

[Djkoleohn]

FWIW, I do not see a reason to think a water change or a new salt mix is going to be helpful.

Wasn't sure if a water change would help by adding alk because I’m pretty sure it will be under 7 dkh come tmrw .... I’m also gonna try what you suggested by lowering my ph using baking soda to help with precipitation. I also just found your recipes for 2 part so I’ll be mixing some up to hopefully stay at around 7 dkh while my calcium drops to lower levels before dosing equally

 

[Jackony]

I’ll only add that I was heavy dosing- sounds similar to you- kinda chasing the perfect numbers. Right. My Ca and Alk dosing was precipitating- much of it all over the place. Sure some dissolved into the water, but much was wasted. Now I’m comfortable with a lower Alk 7.0-7.5 and just keep all parameters steady. Have not had trouble growing sps. Good luck.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wasn't sure if a water change would help by adding alk because I’m pretty sure it will be under 7 dkh come tmrw .... I’m also gonna try what you suggested by lowering my ph using baking soda to help with precipitation. I also just found your recipes for 2 part so I’ll be mixing some up to hopefully stay at around 7 dkh while my calcium drops to lower levels before dosing equally

Demand drops off fast as alk drops below 7. It's also Ok to go a bit below 7, since NSW is actually in the mid 6's. We just often round that to 7 dKH in discussions.

Adding baking soda is a better plan to maintain 6-7 dKH than changing water to keep up the alk. Way cheaper and less likely to cause precipitation too.

 

[Djkoleohn]

Demand drops off fast as alk drops below 7. It's also Ok to go a bit below 7, since NSW is actually in the mid 6's. We just often round that to 7 dKH in discussions.

Adding baking soda is a better plan to maintain 6-7 dKH than changing water to keep up the alk. Way cheaper and less likely to cause precipitation too.

Thanks for all the info , I’m gonna go the baking soda route today and try the maintain a 7ish alk while allowing the calcium to lower ...... thanks again , appreciate it

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

let us know how much you need to be adding to maintain 7 dKH. Hopefully it is much less dKH per day.

 

[ELChingonsReef]

I have the same issue cal 508 alk 7.3 In my 65 gal mixed reef . I have lots of live rock..I noticed djkoleohn does too I sure it has something to do with the problem we have in common. Should I start taking rock out of the tank?

 

[Scritch]

https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/the-right-way-to-use-2-part-additives/

this is good article about dosing 2 part