Lowering high salinity with TM Part C (Balling)

[Vested]

why not just use lower salt mix % on next water change - and gradually bring down salinity.

Same problem assuming your talking about water changing with a lower salinity mix

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Same problem assuming your talking about water changing with a lower salinity mix

Right. It fixes the salinity, but not the imbalance of ions.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Could Tropic Marin Balling Component - Part C be used as a way to safely bring salinity back to normal levels? Say a tank has rose to 38 ppt, could you make a 5 gallon solution of ro and part c for example and water change with that to bring it down until you get back to 35 ppt?

BRS put out a video yesterday that to me seems to be inferring that? Or I'm completely mis-understanding.

I can show you the calculation. I hope this helps.

The Tropic Marin Original Balling Part C is for a 70 : 30 ratio, 70 % sodium chloride and 30 % Part C sodium chloride free sea salt. Starting from sodium chloride only as in your case, you have to add 43 % of the assumed sodium chloride excess in Part C.

Example: You have an excess of 3 g/l of sodium chloride. 3 g x 43 % = 1.3. You have to add 1.3 g per liter or 4.9 g per US-gallon in Part C while reducing salinity of the tank water.

In total the excess of sea salt now would be 3 g/l + 1.3 g/l = 4.3 g/l. This excess is sufficient to supply sea salt (normal dosage for 35 PSU is 39 g/l or 3.9 %) for 0.11 l to achieve ca. 35 PSU salinity.

This means you can remove 11 % of saltwater and s l o w l y add 11 % reverse osmosis water with the calculated amount (4.9 grams per US-gallon water volume) of Part C.

Since you are removing 11 % of the tank water you can subtract this from the Part C also, so take just 4.4 grams of Part C per US-gallon of water volume.

By the way: Very interesting article on salinity and Goniopora in the BRS video. It seems to confirm my experience that a slightly reduced salinity of 33 PSU is at least as good or better than 35 PSU for corals. In fact in the tropical coasts where most corals grow the salinity is also slightly reduced to ca. 34 PSU due to heavy rainfalls.

 

[Vested]

I can show you the calculation. I hope this helps.

The Tropic Marin Original Balling Part C is for a 70 : 30 ratio, 70 % sodium chloride and 30 % Part C sodium chloride free sea salt. Starting from sodium chloride only as in your case, you have to add 43 % of the assumed sodium chloride excess in Part C.

Example: You have an excess of 3 g/l of sodium chloride. 3 g x 43 % = 1.3. You have to add 1.3 g per liter or 4.9 g per US-gallon in Part C while reducing salinity of the tank water.

In total the excess of sea salt now would be 3 g/l + 1.3 g/l = 4.3 g/l. This excess is sufficient to supply sea salt (normal dosage for 35 PSU is 39 g/l or 3.9 %) for 0.11 l to achieve ca. 35 PSU salinity.

This means you can remove 11 % of saltwater and s l o w l y add 11 % reverse osmosis water with the calculated amount (4.9 grams per US-gallon water volume) of Part C.

That does help, appreciate it

 

[Vested]

I can show you the calculation. I hope this helps.

The Tropic Marin Original Balling Part C is for a 70 : 30 ratio, 70 % sodium chloride and 30 % Part C sodium chloride free sea salt. Starting from sodium chloride only as in your case, you have to add 43 % of the assumed sodium chloride excess in Part C.

Example: You have an excess of 3 g/l of sodium chloride. 3 g x 43 % = 1.3. You have to add 1.3 g per liter or 4.9 g per US-gallon in Part C while reducing salinity of the tank water.

In total the excess of sea salt now would be 3 g/l + 1.3 g/l = 4.3 g/l. This excess is sufficient to supply sea salt (normal dosage for 35 PSU is 39 g/l or 3.9 %) for 0.11 l to achieve ca. 35 PSU salinity.

This means you can remove 11 % of saltwater and s l o w l y add 11 % reverse osmosis water with the calculated amount (4.9 grams per US-gallon water volume) of Part C.

Since you are removing 11 % of the tank water you can subtract this from the Part C also, so take just 4.4 grams of Part C per US-gallon of water volume.

Would doing this mess with the Chloride to Sulfate ratio? Leaning towards using a salt mix without the part NaCl or MgSO4, then dosing up magnesium with a balanced additive of 1/2 magnesium chloride and 1/2 magnesium sulfate?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Would doing this mess with the Chloride to Sulfate ratio? Leaning towards using a salt mix without the part NaCl or MgSO4, then dosing up magnesium with a balanced additive of 1/2 magnesium chloride and 1/2 magnesium sulfate?

No, it is all in the Part C, magnesium and sulfate are in the Part C in the proper proportions to the sodium chloride.

 

[Vested]

No, it is all in the Part C, magnesium and sulfate are in the Part C in the proper proportions to the sodium chloride.

Beautiful thanks again

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would doing this mess with the Chloride to Sulfate ratio? Leaning towards using a salt mix without the part NaCl or MgSO4, then dosing up magnesium with a balanced additive of 1/2 magnesium chloride and 1/2 magnesium sulfate?

If you used just calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate to get there, the ratio is already messed up and it will fix the ratio.

If you got there some other way (such as by using my DIY third part to keep chloride sulfate/chloride balanced), then it will tend to mess up that ratio.

If you got there by using a fully balanced method, such as ESV B-ionic, it will mess up the ratios of many ions and should not be used in that application.

 

[Vested]

If you used just calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate to get there, the ratio is already messed up and it will fix the ratio.

If you got there some other way (such as by using my DIY third part to keep chloride sulfate/chloride balanced), then it will tend to mess up that ratio.

If you got there by using a fully balanced method, such as ESV B-ionic, it will mess up the ratios of many ions and should not be used in that application.

The recipe developed by Jim Welsh that uses sodium sulfate assumes, I beleive, that the sodium sulfate is anhydrous, so you need make no corrections:

Jim's recipe (with some text added by me):

Part 1 - The Calcium and Magnesium Part
Dissolve 500 g of calcium chloride dihydrate plus 261.2 g of magnesium chloride hexahydrate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon.

Part 2 - The Alkalinity and Sulfate Part
Dissolve 374.7 g of sodium carbonate (594 g of baking soda that has been baked; = 3.535 moles of sodium carbonate) plus 68.7 g of sodium sulfate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon.

This recipe is the same strength as Randy's Recipe #1 (e.g., BRS). To make these two parts with the same strength as B-Ionic, then multiply the amounts of the salts by 1.5 (but note dissolving the carbonate can become challenging).

New DIY Two Part Recipes with Higher pH Boost

Here's a first crack at what may end up being multiple possible recipes for a DIY two part that either has a higher pH or can be made more concentrated than traditional two part recipes. This one has about twice the pH raising effect compared to a carbonate based two part, per unit of...

www.reef2reef.com

This is the recipe used on the tank I'm referring too, its ~ 450 gallons, you're referring to my idea of using a mix without NaCl and MgSO4 right not part c?

To be specific looking at this mix from captiv8, just not adding the parts removed (NaCl and MgSO4)

Although now back to thinking part c is the better way to go with the calculation hans shared.

 

[MrPike]

This means you can remove 11 % of saltwater and s l o w l y add 11 % reverse osmosis water with the calculated amount (4.9 grams per US-gallon water volume) of Part C.

I’m guessing how slow depends on how much one is correcting, but say for example your correcting a 3 g/l high salinity, would you dose that over the course of a day, hour, week?

Thanks for your input!

 

[Hans-Werner]

This is the recipe used on the tank I'm referring too, its ~ 450 gallons, you're referring to my idea of using a mix without NaCl and MgSO4 right not part c?

To be specific looking at this mix from captiv8, just not adding the parts removed (NaCl and MgSO4)

Although now back to thinking part c is the better way to go with the calculation hans shared.

For 450 gallons I calculate a requirement of slightly less than 2 kg of Part C, 1971 grams if I go through liters with 1.3 g/l - 11%, 1962 grams if I calculate directly with gallons and 4.9 g/gallon - 11%.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I’m guessing how slow depends on how much one is correcting, but say for example your correcting a 3 g/l high salinity, would you dose that over the course of a day, hour, week?

Thanks for your input!

11 % of RO water which already contains some salinity is not extremely much but not very little either. It is going from 38 PSU to 33.8 PSU if no Part C would be added. I think this can be done in a few hours or a day at maximum.

 

[Vested]

For 450 gallons I calculate a requirement of slightly less than 2 kg of Part C, 1971 grams if I go through liters with 1.3 g/l - 11%, 1962 grams if I calculate directly with gallons and 4.9 g/gallon - 11%.

So lets say its at 40psu and I want 35psu can I just swap the 3g with 5g?

5 g/l x 43 % = 2.15 and dose around 2.15 g per liter of tank volume. So 2.15 x 1703 = 3661

now dose 3661 grams of part c to the rodi water used to replace the saltwater until it gets back down to 35psu ?

 

[Hans-Werner]

So lets say its at 40psu and I want 35psu can I just swap the 3g with 5g?

5 g/l x 43 % = 2.15 and dose around 2.15 g per liter of tank volume. So 2.15 x 1703 = 3661

now dose 3661 grams of part c to the rodi water used to replace the saltwater until it gets back down to 35psu ?

Yes, this is exactly the way I would go too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is the recipe used on the tank I'm referring too, its ~ 450 gallons, you're referring to my idea of using a mix without NaCl and MgSO4 right not part c?

To be specific looking at this mix from captiv8, just not adding the parts removed (NaCl and MgSO4)

Although now back to thinking part c is the better way to go with the calculation hans shared.

If you used a two part recipe with sodium sulfate in it then the chloride to sulfate ratio is currently fine and Balling Part C will mess up that ratio.

 

[Vested]

If you used a two part recipe with sodium sulfate in it then the chloride to sulfate ratio is currently fine and Balling Part C will mess up that ratio.

Question for both of you because im confused hans is saying its balanced, would it be skewed towards sulfate then?

And if so then would using a mix like the captiv8 one I linked be the better option? @Hans-Werner

 

[Hans-Werner]

Question for both of you because im confused hans is saying its balanced, would it be skewed towards sulfate then?

And if so then would using a mix like the captiv8 one I linked be the better option? @Hans-Werner

What I gave was for sodium chloride, when using calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate only. If there was a mix containing sulfate, use of Part C could add more sulfate than the target concentration is.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is no easy perfect answer if you used a recipe with sulfate in the two part. I seriously doubt it matters much in this situation which way you go. Using Balling Part C will help preserve potassium and all other ions, at the expense of altering the chloride sulfate balance. That is probably the better way to go.

 

[Dom]

Could Tropic Marin Balling Component - Part C be used as a way to safely bring salinity back to normal levels? Say a tank has rose to 38 ppt, could you make a 5 gallon solution of ro and part c for example and water change with that to bring it down until you get back to 35 ppt?

BRS put out a video yesterday that to me seems to be inferring that? Or I'm completely mis-understanding.

Why wouldn't you add water to the tank volume? That would be problem solved.

And while BRS has many quality and informative instructional videos, at the bedrock of these videos is marketing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why wouldn't you add water to the tank volume? That would be problem solved.

And while BRS has many quality and informative instructional videos, at the bedrock of these videos is marketing.

It solves the salinity problem, but does not solve the ionic imbalance.