LPS issue driving me nuts

[dricc]

Wondering the same. Maybe the leather coral is the culprit?

 

[Christopher Davis]

Do you have peppermint shrimp in the display?! They will go after LPS.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Wondering the same. Maybe the leather coral is the culprit?

I did consider this but both leather corals were in the previous DT for at least a year and caused no issues. But even with running carbon I guess it is a possibility, I'll consider getting rid of them during the reboot.

Do you have peppermint shrimp in the display?! They will go after LPS.

No peppermint shrimp. I have 2 coral banded but they were only added after these issues started.

 

[dricc]

I did consider this but both leather corals were in the previous DT for at least a year and caused no issues. But even with running carbon I guess it is a possibility, I'll consider getting rid of them during the reboot.


No peppermint shrimp. I have 2 coral banded but they were only added after these issues started.

Wonder if the alk drop and spike stressed them and they released toxins? Maybe large water changes would help? Just guessing.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Wonder if the alk drop and spike stressed them and they released toxins? Maybe large water changes would help? Just guessing.

It might have done initially, but I was doing water changes and using carbon before and after the alk spike, I only stopped doing WC after a lot of people suggested the issues may be due to low nutrients either way the issue continued while I was doing WC and after. And that spike was also over a year ago and I was still having this issue as of July and its all been fairly stable around 8dKH since then and no alk spikes to keep stressing the leathers.

They are both also quite small leathers, I don't know how much toxins they can release but it would surely have to be a massive amount to pollute a 180gal to the point where it killed coral. I also would have thought that if it was toxins it would impact all coral (soft and stony) at the same time rather than one by one as well as all heads of a hammer or torch vs one by one.

 

[ryanuy]

Any updates? Were you able to figure out what was happening to the corals?

Based on what I've been reading, it does seem like something is stressing out the corals which are slowly causing them to bail out on you. At night, do your LPS show any feeding response? Like do the acans or scolys open up?

I had something similar happen to me with P04 at 0.28 but since I've lowered it with GFO and water changes and lowered the light intensity and schedule, things seem to be doing better.

I had a torch i thought was receding as well but i dipped it in furan2 and its been 5 days and i think it looks a bit better now.

 

[Bryn]

I found this problem very interesting, but also feel for your frustration.

I was wondering about the external factors outside of the tank that could be contributing to your problem. It would be interesting to bring two large frags from a single colony and place one into the main tank and the other into a new set up alongside the main, and watch what happened to the new frags. Even better would have been an established tank alongside the DT.

The triton test was a good call and I'm sure it helped to exclude a lot of the marine based problems, but going back to the external factors, the triton test would not find more complex compounds, organic and inorganic. An example would be a pesticide, or a solvent, the soap you wash your hands with before you put them in the tank if gloves are not used, or compound residue on your hands. Maybe you have air fresheners around the home or equipment in the tank are breaking down. That is why I was thinking of this experiment.

Your thoughts?

 

[Midrats]

Give some Tunze Care Bacter a try. It has two strains of bacteria, one of which is supposed to fight off bacterial infections. Might be worth a shot at this point.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Have been a bit busy with work / family recently so the plan to get my to-do list done in a couple of weeks was a bit too ambitious but I am making very slow progress

My fuge light has arrived. I'll be cutting out the filter sock area and hanging the light above the soon to be fuge next week. I just want to remove the sand before I get rid of the filter socks as I am sure they will be needed to catch a lot of the gunk that will get stirred up.

I haven't done any NSW water changes yet, but I have picked up a couple of large blue drums so I can get 400L of NSW at a time. Hopefully I will be able to borrow a petrol pump from another reefer nearby until I can buy my own. The ship and at least half the sand will be coming out this weekend as I use up the last of my ASW. The rest of the sand will come out when this monsoon passes and I can get out to collect some NSW that wont be full of run off & fresh rain. And this weekend I should be able to get a cheap blender so I can start making a good DIY food mix but in the mean time have been feeding quite heavy with a mix of frozen foods.

What brand salt do you use? Any settling occur in the bag/bucket? What brand of alk/calk/mag do you use? Heavy metals not being in the Triton test was suprising. So is the apparant 1mo. life span of certain corals in your tank. What fish are in the tank again? Anything that likes to peck? Ive had a few hammer branches just die for no reason, but usually one of 20 and very randomly, not a whole colony. Have you double checked your tests against other tests? Do you run carbon? Could it be Alleopathy?

- I use Red Sea Blue Bucket salt and I always make sure to mix it up well before I use it to account for any settling and I use Randy's for Alk/Ca/Mag.
- The lack of heavy metals was also surprising to me too, I'm keen to do another triton test in a couple of months after a few NSW WC to see if there has been any changes.
- For the last six months I have only had a blue tang and a black cardinal, before that I had a few other fish but nothing that is known to pick at coral. I did only just add a tiny scribbled angel and I know they are hit or miss with coral, but it was only just added so it's not the cause.
- I have confirmed my water levels with salifert, red sea & API tests (I know the last one is not reliable but they all come up within the same range).
- I use seachem matrix carbon and used to change it out once a month. I've recently just stopped using it for a little while to see if that helps. Alleopathy/chemical warfare has been suggested a fair bit but I don't believe that is the case as I had both of my leather corals in my last tank for 2 years with no issues (the first corals I added) and they are both quite small leather corals in a 750L system. Surely that's a lot of chemicals they would need to release?

Any updates? Were you able to figure out what was happening to the corals?
Based on what I've been reading, it does seem like something is stressing out the corals which are slowly causing them to bail out on you. At night, do your LPS show any feeding response? Like do the acans or scolys open up?
I had something similar happen to me with P04 at 0.28 but since I've lowered it with GFO and water changes and lowered the light intensity and schedule, things seem to be doing better.
I had a torch i thought was receding as well but i dipped it in furan2 and its been 5 days and i think it looks a bit better now.

- Still not sure what the cause could be but I also haven't been able to make any of the changes I wanted to make yet. Will hopefully have some spare time coming up next month.
- I agree it seems like something is stressing them out, just can't figure out if it is one thing or multiple things. At night, for the first few weeks at least there is a lot of polyp extension/feeding response. - I haven't noticed it decrease as they start to decline but I have a colony atm that is slowly dying so I'll check it at night next time I get a chance to see if it is still feeding.
- Last time I tested NO3/PO4 I got 25ppm/0.03ppm respectively. It's definitely out of ratio and NO3 is a bit too high (because I have been feeding quite heavy) and because of it I have a bit of a cyano issue atm but the coral issues won't be from high PO4. I actually started feeding heavy because a lot of people assured me that my issues were because NO3 and PO4 were too low but getting NO3 up to 10-20 and PO4 up to 0.03-0.1 didn't help.
- Light intensity is something I am going to check again this week on my days off. I've currently got 3 LPS colonies in the tank all added on the 2nd of Jan. So far 1 started to decline approx. 2 weeks ago and keeps getting worse and the other 2 are looking mostly ok. The one that has started declining is more directly under a light than the other 2 so I am curious to know the difference in PAR between placement of the 3 colonies. I'll certainly report back if there is a big difference!

I found this problem very interesting, but also feel for your frustration.
I was wondering about the external factors outside of the tank that could be contributing to your problem. It would be interesting to bring two large frags from a single colony and place one into the main tank and the other into a new set up alongside the main, and watch what happened to the new frags. Even better would have been an established tank alongside the DT.
The triton test was a good call and I'm sure it helped to exclude a lot of the marine based problems, but going back to the external factors, the triton test would not find more complex compounds, organic and inorganic. An example would be a pesticide, or a solvent, the soap you wash your hands with before you put them in the tank if gloves are not used, or compound residue on your hands. Maybe you have air fresheners around the home or equipment in the tank are breaking down. That is why I was thinking of this experiment.
Your thoughts?

- External factors are always a possibility, and I have considered it. However this tank is in the lounge room, same place my old tank was which thrived (well both coral and algae thrived haha) for 2 years.
- I always use a shoulder length glove if I need to put my hands in the tank and when not in use the glove is kept in the cabinet under the tank. The glove is also replaced every 6 months or so depending on use.
- There is an air freshener in the room but there was always one (same one) with the previous tank as well. The previous tank actually used to be closer and the air freshener was pointed more towards it than the current tank with no issues. A couple of months ago the aerosol air freshener got replaced with a "mister" thing which is supposed to be better for the air quality and it's also been moved to the very far corner away from the tank but there hasn't been any change yet.
- I have checked all the equipment a few times for any possible issues but everything is in clean and in working order, no signs of any exposed magnets or parts breaking down.
- While I would be interested to see the results of such an experiment I do not have the funds to set up another tank and most definitely do not have the room. I live in quite a small 2 Bedroom unit and it already has a 6' tank that is way too big for the unit and dominates the lounge room there is no way I could fit (let alone be allowed) even a 2' tank somewhere.

Give some Tunze Care Bacter a try. It has two strains of bacteria, one of which is supposed to fight off bacterial infections. Might be worth a shot at this point.

- Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it and see if I can get any for a reasonable price in Aus. But I am pretty sure it's not a bacterial issue at this stage. It impacts coral slowly over a month or two and is still causing issues after even 6 months with no coral in the tank.

 

[Bryn]

Lets hope with the next tank, things will be better, if not we will all be here to at least give moral support. Understand about lack of space, and funds. Hang in there and we will be following. All the best.

 

[Gloryofthereef]

Just a thought, I have had 2 clients in the past who were losing corals slowly for no apparent reason, and in both cases, there was an external factor involved. The first was a tank in a bedroom, near the bathroom, and my client's wife was putting lotion on in the morning and then feeding the tank on her way to work. She stopped feeding with lotion fingers, and the corals stopped dying. The second case was a gentleman who upgraded his system from a 20 gal cube to a 60 gal hex tank, and the 60 was so deep that when he would clean the glass, his armpit was touching the water. His deodorant was the culprit in that case. I personally lost everything in an acrylic 150 gal reef because my roommate at the time sprayed some burn relief spray in the same room at the open top aquarium... After diagnosing the water, I usually start asking people to look at EVERYTHING that is touching the water.
Lastly, I know your triton test didn't show high iron, but it COULD be possible that the sand you are using has flourite in it, which as I understand it is very high in iron. It looked like you were putting all the corals you were losing on the sand bed, or at least close to it. It may be time to get rid of that sand and see if that is causing your issue.

 

[ryanuy]

How about the rate in which they decline? Is it all LPS that you have that are declining or are some still doing okay?

For example, if you get a new acan or hammer today, how long till it starts declining, how long is the declining period, and how long till its dead?

Yeah, please do let us know on the lighting issue. It could be the PAR from that light thats too high for LPS in general? Did you use the same light from the old tank to the new tank?

Usually with tank problems, its lights or water chemistry that cause slow declines. If its not a lighting issue, id probably try doing big water changes within a few days of each other and if that doesn't fix it, then it has to be the lights probably.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

At night, do your LPS show any feeding response? Like do the acans or scolys open up?.

Had a chance to check the corals the last couple of nights. No feeding response the first night but lots on the second, even on the dying ones.

Just a thought, I have had 2 clients in the past who were losing corals slowly for no apparent reason, and in both cases, there was an external factor involved. The first was a tank in a bedroom, near the bathroom, and my client's wife was putting lotion on in the morning and then feeding the tank on her way to work. She stopped feeding with lotion fingers, and the corals stopped dying. The second case was a gentleman who upgraded his system from a 20 gal cube to a 60 gal hex tank, and the 60 was so deep that when he would clean the glass, his armpit was touching the water. His deodorant was the culprit in that case. I personally lost everything in an acrylic 150 gal reef because my roommate at the time sprayed some burn relief spray in the same room at the open top aquarium... After diagnosing the water, I usually start asking people to look at EVERYTHING that is touching the water.
Lastly, I know your triton test didn't show high iron, but it COULD be possible that the sand you are using has flourite in it, which as I understand it is very high in iron. It looked like you were putting all the corals you were losing on the sand bed, or at least close to it. It may be time to get rid of that sand and see if that is causing your issue.

- This thank is in the same room as the last tank which had no issues (aside from algae) for a bit over 2 years. The new tank is 3m away from where the old one was but is still in the same room so anything that is effecting it now should have effected the old tank too.
- My wife doesn't touch or really even go near the tank, it's all mine and both of us only ever apply deodorant, hair spray, lotions etc in the bathroom down the hall. I also always wear a shoulder length glove when in the tank so my skin isn't in contact with the water and I don't think my armpit ever has been as well (at least not since I put the scape in haha), but even then I generally avoid putting my hands in the tank.
- I've been trying to rack my brain for any possible external factors but the only things I can think of would have caused issues in the old tank too. But just in case, the main thing I can think that may be issues are the air freshener (which was way closer to where the old tank was) and cooking (open plan living/dining/kitchen) which can sometimes let off a bit of smoke etc.
- The issues with coral started before I added the black sand and not all the coral that died was on the sand bed (the ones on the sand bed were just easier to get pics of), but there certainly could be something in there that might not be helping and I've grown to dislike it a bit anyway so it is coming out, I just need to get around to it (hopefully in the next week or two).

How about the rate in which they decline? Is it all LPS that you have that are declining or are some still doing okay?
For example, if you get a new acan or hammer today, how long till it starts declining, how long is the declining period, and how long till its dead?
Yeah, please do let us know on the lighting issue. It could be the PAR from that light thats too high for LPS in general? Did you use the same light from the old tank to the new tank?
Usually with tank problems, its lights or water chemistry that cause slow declines. If its not a lighting issue, id probably try doing big water changes within a few days of each other and if that doesn't fix it, then it has to be the lights probably.

- It's all LPS, zoas and mushrooms (and SPS but I won't necessarily attribute that to the same issue just yet haha). LPS definitely decline faster than zoas and mushrooms but I have lost lots of each. So far 2 BTA, the 3 maxima clams (still growing and quite happy) and the 2 leather corals all from the old tank don't seem to have any issues.
- When I had lots of euphyllia, mushrooms, zoas & acans it seemed to be always only 1 or 2 colonies effected at once but maybe that's just what it seemed like because they would drop off one head or one polyp at a time. Now each time I add 2-3 colonies at once, all of them start declining around the same time. Some faster than others but it generally starts within 2-4 weeks and takes another 2-4 weeks + to be completely dead.
- I still need to check PAR again but hopefully I'll get some time soon on my next set of days off (I work a lot of nights so atm the tank lights are on while I'm asleep and then off when I wake up).
- The Old tank was 4' and lit by 3x 165W Mars Aqua LED lights and I used the same 3 lights over the 6' tank and just spread them out more and put them up a bit higher. I did turn them up a bit to compensate for that but at first I thought I hadn't turned them up enough and now I think I might have them turned up too high? We will see when I check the PAR again.

As usual guys thanks for the suggestions, everything could be something I haven't thought of or didn't rule out properly the first time. I'm really hoping to get some more spare time in the next week or two. Priorities atm are to check PAR again, remove the sand and fake sunken ship and hopefully do a couple of large water changes with NSW if it stops raining enough for me to get some

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Here is the 3 colonies I added at the start of Jan. Varying levels of decline but all are declining.

I am also getting quite a bit of cyano recently, and then lots of diatoms when I remove the cyano. I am thinking this is likely due to the use of vibrant combined with the fact that I have now taken any algae nutrient export offline, no algae turf scrubber, no chaeto reactor and I haven't gotten the fuge up and running yet.

 

[UCF Alum]

Have you considered chemical warfare? It nuked a friend of mines tank right out in a matter of about 3 weeks. Water parameters all perfect. It was two of his softies going to war.
Just a thought....

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Have you considered chemical warfare? It nuked a friend of mines tank right out in a matter of about 3 weeks. Water parameters all perfect. It was two of his softies going to war.
Just a thought....

Alleopathy/chemical warfare has been suggested a fair bit but I don't believe that is the case as I had both of my leather corals in my last tank for 2 years with no issues (the first corals I added) and they are both quite small leather corals in a 750L system. Surely that's a lot of chemicals they would need to release?

And how do you test for that? How do people know that's actually the cause? Or if they believe they rule everything out so they just rule that it was definitely chemical warfare? I just see it get thrown around a lot almost like a buzz word haha

It's not that I think it's impossible, and eventually I am prepared to get rid of the leathers to try that theory. But each coral is smaller than my hand and I used to run carbon. I find it hard to believe that 2 small leathers can release enough toxins to fill up a 750L tank and overcome any carbon being used.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

What PAR do people recommend for LPS coral? I can't really find a good guide on this :/ after today I really think that this lighting might be a main cause. I've tried ruling it out before, but I didn't notice before how badly they are spotlighting and how poor the PAR is in between the lights.

Last time I checked PAR it was quite low, so I cranked it up a bit. Then I was worried that I had it up too high as mushrooms and zoas started to bail out so I turned it back down a little bit and thought it was good. Looks like I turned it down way too far again. After cheeking today I've turned it back up a little bit and can either leave it there or turn it up a bit more? The lights are now at 70% white and 75% blue.

One thing I didn't pick up on last time but I noticed this time is how badly the lights are causing a spotlight effect and how poor their spread is. The old tank was 4' and I bought 3 of these lights specifically so I could upgrade to a 6' tank later and not need to buy another (I had seen a lot of people with nice 6' tanks and 3 of these lights over the top).

Maybe I need to either buy another light or raise these ones up higher to increase the spread? Or both?

Anyway here is an OLD pic of my tank so ignore the coral there but the scape is the same. The top number is PAR before and the bottom number is after adjusting the lights today. Below is an explanation of where each measurement was taken from. The 3 black boxes are also drawn on to show roughly where my lights sit 30cm above the water.

1 - bottom front left
2 - mid tank rock ledge on the left of the tank. Currently a small green acan there (the coral on the right in the pic posted above)
3 - rock ledge at the top left of the tank
4 - bottom of the tank, at the base of the rock structure. Currently a medium sized colony there (the coral on the left in the pic posted above)
5 - on the top left point of the ship
6 - on the top of a purple maxima
7 - bottom center front
8 - far right point of the ship
9 - top of another maxima clam
10 - mid height on the rock structure towards the back of the tank
11 - front right of the tank on the sandbed. Currently a medium sized colony there (the center coral in the pic posted above)
12 - mid tank rock ledge on the right of the tank
13 - edge of the right hand rock structure
14 - sandbed towards the bottom right front of the tank

 

[taikss]

Have you considered chemical warfare? It nuked a friend of mines tank right out in a matter of about 3 weeks. Water parameters all perfect. It was two of his softies going to war.
Just a thought....

Can you name the softies?

I'm losing hope on LPS in my tank too. Prob is that i too have a lot of softies and by now it's hard to place them "far"

one thing that may cause the warfare is anemone. i got two huge ones in my tank and they are suffocating everything around themselves, so i'd assume the cabbage under it is not feeling too good...

 

[taikss]

What PAR do people recommend for LPS coral? I can't really find a good guide on this :/ after today I really think that this lighting might be a main cause. I've tried ruling it out before, but I didn't notice before how badly they are spotlighting and how poor the PAR is in between the lights.

L
14 - sandbed towards the bottom right front of the tank

Actually i thought u're overdoing this as i have 2 of the similar LED's (viparspectra) and i keep them at 4 inches above water and run at 85%/65%. Always thought of getting the third one for more even spread, currently it's a bit shaded in the center. Perhaps the best idea for you too would be to move that thing lower. My tank is 900l (2mx0,8x0,6).

Next thing i'll do is tune up the whites to at least 80% and go to 90-95% with the blues.

 

[taikss]

Hope you don't mind posting under this same thread, but my problem is that all LPS are fading with me too and the typical location i've been putting them is the circle on the left. Whereas the two on the right are clearly the regions where anemone is fighting the lobo's. I can't see anything bad happening to the softies nor the anemone, but the mystery of fading LPS seems to be hopeless. Not sure if it could also be the toadstool? I'm thinking of giving up on LPS and proceeding with the softies only as water parameters don't show anything bad, but i haven't been able to grow a single LPS so far. They don't even open up when in my tank mostly. Maybe someone can elaborate on the reach of allelopathy?