LPS issue driving me nuts

[MaccaPopEye]

I'm really hoping someone here can give me some ideas about what I could be doing wrong and why all of my LPS keeps dying

I had a 100gal setup for 2 years and had no issues keeping all kinds of soft coral and LPS. At the end of October I upgraded to a 180gal, partly to get away from an algae issue and partly to get a bigger tank
All livestock that had been thriving in the old tank (fish, soft coral, LPS, clams and CUC) and a few rocks were transferred across as well as starting with a lot of new dry rock (that had been pre-cycled in a bin). For the first month everything looked fine and I had 0 issues.
Early December I still hadn't set up my doser and missed a few manual doses which caused my Alk plummet to 5dKH (from 8) and I accidently bumped it back up to 8dKH in one hit instead of spreading it out over a couple of days like intended.

In the next 2-3 days my LPS started going downhill fast. Hammers started bailing out and didn't stop, over a couple of weeks I lost all of my hammer colonies (5 each with 4-6 heads), a torch, a large chalice, 1 large acan and one mushroom even went very pale looking. As well as everything else losing a lot of tissue and looking very bad. I put all this down to stress from the Alk drop and then spike.

I got my doser sorted out and got everything stable and things seemed to have calmed down by the end of December. However since Jan things have kept going slowly downhill but ONLY LPS, clams and soft coral are fine if not thriving. Everything looks OK for a few days and then something dies and I don't know what is causing it, and repeat. My parameters since the start of the year have been pretty stable at:
Alkalinity: 7-8dKH (usually drops 1dKH over 1-2 weeks before I readjust my dosing)
Calcium: 420 - 450ppm
Magnesium: 1300ppm
Nitrate: 1 - 2.5ppm
Phosphate: 0 - 0.03ppm
PH: 8 - 8.2
Salinity: 1.026
Temp: 27C
Dosing Randy's 1

I thought my issues had stopped so at the start of Feb I picked up a few large torch colonies and 2 hammer colonies. The smaller hammer lasted just under a month before all the polyps started bailing. The larger hammer colony and large torch colonies have all started bailing out in the last 2 weeks. Some polyps peel off with full polyp extension, some retract and look sick for a while before they peel off. Every other LPS but particularly my trachy have also been looking fine one day and terrible the next.

Clams are looking fantastic, soft coral is looking great, coralline algae is taking off.

I can't figure out what is causing this and I'm pretty close to my wits end.

As soon as my new hammer and torch corals started looking bad I lowered flow in case that was it (4x Jebao RW-8s at around 80%). A week later when things had kept getting worse I tried lowering the light (3x mars aqua 165W LEDs) and also moved some torch corals to lower light, lower flow places. Those I moved to lower light, lower flow areas seem to be doing OK. But not great. Still just barely surviving, but haven't died where as the remaining hammer and last torch I left in place have kept dying quite fast.

Any help would be appreciated Here are a couple of pics:

Both these were taken in the same day. It will constantly bounce back and forth between looking fine and like it will peel off.

Hammer now completely dead

Hammer still dying

The better looking torch

 

[Leslie Tabor]

I can't help because I have the same EXACT issue so I am very interested in what you find out. I have given up on LPS entirely. I am thinking it has something to do with the ALK spike/drop because I had overdosed and raised mine too quickly and that is when everything fell apart. That was in Aug/Sept 2016, and I am still losing LPS. I am here for moral support if nothing else!

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Oh and top off water is 0TDS RODI. Filtration is 3x filter socks (changed every 7-14 days), Deltec SC1350 skimmer (I only have 6 small fish), 1x large marine pure block and 3kg of generic brand ceramic rings (similar to siporax). I have been feeding 2 cubes of frozen and 1/4 of a sheet of nori per day to keep my nitrate up otherwise with only 1 cube per day it drops down to 0-1ppm.

I can't help because I have the same EXACT issue so I am very interested in what you find out. I have given up on LPS entirely. I am thinking it has something to do with the ALK spike/drop because I had overdosed and raised mine too quickly and that is when everything fell apart. That was in Aug/Sept 2016, and I am still losing LPS. I am here for moral support if nothing else!

Moral support is appreciated! But hopefully we both get a fix out of this!

I was deadest convinced my issues were from Alk stability problems. That is until they didn't go away after I got my levels stable for a couple of months, and if anything got worse. My clams are also thriving and so is coralline algae, both of which I thought should be doing badly if the issue was Alk.

One thing that may be of note is I don't (can't) dose equal parts Alk and Calcium recipe 1 as Randy says to. If I lower my Alk dose then Alk plummets a lot, but if I raise my Calcium dose to match then it spikes and takes forever to come back down.

I'm currently dosing 97ml of Alk, 47ml of Calcium and 1ml of Magnesium per day. If anything atm my Alk is dropping about 0.5dKH per week and Calcium is dropping ~5ppm per week (both need to be raised a little), Magnesium seems stable at 1300ppm with a 1ml/day dose.

 

[Shep]

#reefsquad

 

[MaccaPopEye]

This is the torch I left in the same place I put them all when I first got them (sandbed front right of the tank, under the RH light and moderate flow). I would have said that it was thriving for at least a month if not more. Longest sweepers I have ever seen and huge heads. Until a bit over a week ago when it dropped two heads. This morning one was looking like it was going to bail out, a few hours later and it has started to peel clean off.

Alk just tested at 7.7dKH (was 8 just under a week ago - all salifert test kiets) so I need to raise the daily dose a bit, but Calcium is fairly stable at half the amount dosed per day. There isn't any precipitation that I can see so not sure what the difference in dosages is.

 

[Jimbo662]

I'm assuming the new tank is deeper. Did you adjust the lighting so they were getting the same amount in the new tank? Two things I've noticed when I've had issues with LPS is the light intensity wasn't enough and water was too clean. Did you run the filter socks on the 100 also?

 

[jason_mazzy]

has the tank ever had copper in it? used tank?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Tanks for the suggestions guys, all ideas welcome

I'm assuming the new tank is deeper. Did you adjust the lighting so they were getting the same amount in the new tank? Two things I've noticed when I've had issues with LPS is the light intensity wasn't enough and water was too clean. Did you run the filter socks on the 100 also?

The new tank is just over an inch deeper. Over the first 2 weeks after setup I ramped the lights up a bit (15-20%) to make sure the coral had enough light (the lights are also a bit more spread out than they were on the old tank). I've heard too much light can be bad as well which is why I have backed off the light a bit in the last two weeks in case I overdid it.

I bought a second hand seneye to test PAR last month but it never arrived :mad: so while I am in the process of trying to get my money back I bit the bullet and ordered a brand new one tonight. Should be here in a week so i can check PAR as light, flow or parasite are the main things I can think of.

As for clean water I did run a filter sock on the 100gal on and off, but so much filth settled in my sump without them I couldn't stand it. I will consider removing them and seeing if that makes a difference. But soft corals (zoas, leathers, mushrooms), BTA and 2 clams are all doing fantastic, I would have thought soft coral would be the first to go sick in water that's too clean. I have been trying to raise nitrates by increasing feeding though just in case thats what it is. Feeding meaty foods directly to the corals had no effect. The trachy even spat out the tiny bits of prawn I tried to feed it, it used to take large bits with no issues.

has the tank ever had copper in it? used tank?

The tank is second hand and was fresh water before I got it, unknown about any prior use of copper. I did consider getting a copper test kit while I was pondering all the possible problems tonight. But I cleaned the tank out thoroughly twice (with vinegar and then RO) before filling it up. Would soft corals, nems and clams be hurt by copper? As they are all doing well. If they wouldn't be hurt by copper I will defs get a copper test kit.

 

[TroutbumNV]

Is the tank glass? Usually not enough copper will stick in a glass tank to make a difference, it would just be the little silicone that would hold minute amounts. Did you reuse anything else besides just the tank?
I'm not sure about any of the fresh water medicines, and how much they would stick. A lot of times copper and other medicines are used in fresh water, as they don't have the corals and inverts to worry about. But I've never seen actual evidence in a glass tank that a damaging amount of anything stays around. I've built nano reefs out of 10g hospital tanks and never had a problem. But, acrylic can hold a lot more. And don't reuse heaters, powerhead, etc.
Not running any cheap pond pumps or anything like that? Some of those use copper bushings.
How long was the tank at 5dkh?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Is the tank glass? Usually not enough copper will stick in a glass tank to make a difference, it would just be the little silicone that would hold minute amounts. Did you reuse anything else besides just the tank?
I'm not sure about any of the fresh water medicines, and how much they would stick. A lot of times copper and other medicines are used in fresh water, as they don't have the corals and inverts to worry about. But I've never seen actual evidence in a glass tank that a damaging amount of anything stays around. I've built nano reefs out of 10g hospital tanks and never had a problem. But, acrylic can hold a lot more. And don't reuse heaters, powerhead, etc.
Not running any cheap pond pumps or anything like that? Some of those use copper bushings.
How long was the tank at 5dkh?

Yeah the tank is glass, and seals were all in good condition so I didn't reseal it.

All gear is from my old tank with an additional 2 new wave makers and it's all marine specific (deltec, ehiem and jebao).

The 1 thing that did get put in from the fresh water setup was a sunken ship ornament at the request of my SO (she's always wanted one and gotta keep 'em happy). It wasn't used in the freshwater setup (at least not at the time I bought the tank) but it still underwent a vinegar bath and RO soak for about a month. It is plastic so I if that could have absorbed any copper it could be the issue. Again though soft corals, BTA, clams (oh and 2 CBS) are all doing really well and I thought copper would kill them too.

The tank dropped down to 5dKH over maybe 2 weeks max. Went back up to 8 in one hit (my mistake) and has been pretty stable since (1-1.5dKH fluctuations over 1 week at most).

 

[AntarcticIkeelu]

You need to slowly raise your nitrates to 5-10 ppm. I keep my at 15 so I don't have to feed some of my more difficult lps (acanthrophyllia and scolymia). Too low nitrates = starving lps. My suggestion would be to turn off your skimmer till they raise to 5 ppm. Turn it back on and let them stay at 5 ppm for a week then repeat till they reach 10 ppm.

 

[john.m.cole3]

Water is too clean for LPS. Keep feeding them. Maybe try a different food to change it up some.

 

[Jimbo662]

Agreed with John...if you went from every so often filtering to using 3 socks to get pretty much everything out then they'll probably show signs of it.

I'm in the middle of a new build for my LPS. One thing I'm going to do is set up two small powerheads, one in the skimmer section and one in the return section, to power on once an hour to stir things up so detritus doesn't settle and will get recycled back into the tank to feed the corals. In my current tank i was thinking that was why my PO4 and No3 have been staying slightly higher than I'd like.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

You need to slowly raise your nitrates to 5-10 ppm. I keep my at 15 so I don't have to feed some of my more difficult lps (acanthrophyllia and scolymia). Too low nitrates = starving lps. My suggestion would be to turn off your skimmer till they raise to 5 ppm. Turn it back on and let them stay at 5 ppm for a week then repeat till they reach 10 ppm.

Water is too clean for LPS. Keep feeding them. Maybe try a different food to change it up some.

Agreed with John...if you went from every so often filtering to using 3 socks to get pretty much everything out then they'll probably show signs of it.

I'm in the middle of a new build for my LPS. One thing I'm going to do is set up two small powerheads, one in the skimmer section and one in the return section, to power on once an hour to stir things up so detritus doesn't settle and will get recycled back into the tank to feed the corals. In my current tank i was thinking that was why my PO4 and No3 have been staying slightly higher than I'd like.

Thanks for the suggestions

I've actually just turned my skimmer back on after it had been off for a month, but during that month (no water changes and feeding the same) my nitrates only raised 1ppm total. I had the skimmer off to treat with fluconazole and kill some derbesia (which mostly worked). My LPS issues started before the fluconazole treatment though and but no one else seems to be having any issues with coral from it. During the treatment I did think all the coral was getting a bit better and everything has taken a sharp downturn since around the time I turned my skimmer back on, so maybe turning my skimmer back on is why?

I have heard that water can be "too clean" for LPS quite a bit, and I am willing to try and bump my nutrients up a bit more (although I'm not exactly trying to keep them low either, they just are). But if that really was the issue wouldn't my soft coral also be suffering? I have lots of mushrooms spreading and growing bigger, 2 decent sized leathers puffing up and looking healthy all the time and some zoas that are spreading like a weed.

Could I just increase feeding and leave the filter socks on?

Edit: And when I say I used filter socks on and off in the old tank I used them more or less always for the last year (left them off for a day here and there where I didn't keep up with cleaning them). And all the LPS I had in that tank thrived with the same nutrient levels

 

[MaccaPopEye]

#LeslieTabor if you are having similar issues what are your Parameters? Do you also have low nutrients? Use filter socks etc?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Ordered some amino acids and reef roids tonight so hopefully they will arrive before the weekend and can start being dosed. Seneye has been shipped as well so I will be able to check my PAR levels soon and eliminate light as an unknown.

I have also increased my feeding to 3 frozen cubes (2 of cyclops and 1 of shrimp) and 1/2 a sheet of nori per day. For now the skimmer is skimming super dry (as it always has been), but if I don't start to see nutrients rise over the next week or two I will start with turning it off during the day. If I STILL don't see nutrients increase I will stop using the filter socks and will have to get another power head to add to the sump

 

[Esage]

Do you notice a white film around the dying heads?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Do you notice a white film around the dying heads?

Didn't notice any white film on any of the coral.

Acans, moon corals and the trachy all started just receding slowly, exposing skeleton as the flesh shrunk. I had 2 favias and a chalice where they started looking sick and showing a little bit of skeleton and then the flesh just peeled off one day (almost in a solid sheet). Torches and hammers are all doing a bit of both, some polyps are peeling off in one big piece over a few days, others are shriveling up into the skeleton over a few days and then just gone (probably bail out at night).

 

[Grey Ghost]

Do you use peppermint shrimp as part of your cuc? Some species have been known to remove polyps and completely kill lps colonies if food sources are scarce.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Do you use peppermint shrimp as part of your cuc? Some species have been known to remove polyps and completely kill lps colonies if food sources are scarce.

No peppermint shrimp. Only 2 coral banded shrimp, but the issues started before I got them.

This is the latest polyp to take a bad turn. I'll be checking nitrates and phosphates tonight to see if there has been any improvement in the last week. Skimmer is now off until I can get them to rise a bit.