LPS / Softy Tank Going Downhill - Need Advice

[ScottB]

Question...to deal with any toxins produced from the Dino’s, should I increase my use of carbon? I currently have 4 chemipure blue nano packets in one of my overflows and I swap in 1 new packet weekly. So over a month, all 4 packets get swapped out and any individual packet is only used for a month. That’s been my normal routine and I haven’t changed it. Should that be increased or changed?

That is likely sufficient to neutralize potential toxins. Some dinos are not toxic at all, but better to be safe without an ID.

Getting an affirmative ID would be very helpful in determining effective treatment. If I have not already recommended this thread I will now:

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info: some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ScottB]

I went back to your opening post. If you have a bunch of algae, that is what is likely taking up your nutrient. You can dose nitrate if you want. I've used loudwolf sodium nitrate. This will also reduce your PO4 a little.

How certain are we that you have dinos? Getting a sample under a microscope 400X is the only way to be sure -- unless this is not your first dino rodeo.

As to bryopsis, fluconazole is pretty much the only solution. It works for sure, but every now and then -- for reasons we've not figured out yet -- it will crush your SPS. Anecdotally maybe 1 out of 10 times.

 

[RobW]

My small tank is about the same age as yours. Had to get my nutrients up as well.

 

[NanoReef303]

Just be aware that dosing nitrates will bring down your PO4 is what I think @Nicholas Dushynsky is suggesting.

Given that this is (apparently) not an exclusively sand-based dino (would mean probable Amphidinium) this is likely to be ostreopsis, procentrum, coolia, or small cell amphidinium. All of these are susceptible to UV. Deployed correctly, this is the fastest way to knock them back but I would also dose nutrients up.

1 watt per 3 gallons
Slow flow (3 X turnover per hour.)
UV should pull from and return to the display (not the sump)
For a Nano tank, even the affordable Green Killing Machine will suffice.

Sorry for the added expense, but you are fighting with a hand behind your back without UV on these species.

Good luck & hang in there!

Thanks. My sand is actually pretty clean. They seem to be primarily forming on top of rocks and other algae. I was thinking about getting the IM 9w UV that drops into one of my overflows.

 

[NanoReef303]

I went back to your opening post. If you have a bunch of algae, that is what is likely taking up your nutrient. You can dose nitrate if you want. I've used loudwolf sodium nitrate. This will also reduce your PO4 a little.

How certain are we that you have dinos? Getting a sample under a microscope 400X is the only way to be sure -- unless this is not your first dino rodeo.

As to bryopsis, fluconazole is pretty much the only solution. It works for sure, but every now and then -- for reasons we've not figured out yet -- it will crush your SPS. Anecdotally maybe 1 out of 10 times.

I think it’s Dino because it’s not present at night and first thing in the morning. After a few hours with the lights on, I see brown sheets and strings forming on top of other algae primarily. When I hit it with turkey baster it goes away. That said, I have not confirmed it under a microscope. I might pick up a cheap kids microscope online to confirm the species.

 

[NanoReef303]

Update...

Now on week 3 without a water change and 2 weeks into my get well plan. I’ve been feeding the fish heavier while also feeding the corals with coral frenzy daily. I removed as much GHA as I could using a turkey baster, a net, and a tooth brush. I have been blasting the rocks throughout the day anytime I think about it when I’m home in order to get the Dinos into the water column. I have been changing out my filter floss daily and I installed the IM 9W UV this morning. I also cleaned my return pump today and I think that improved my flow. Finally, I dosed a little nitrate and phosphate supplements this past week. My current parameters are as follows:
- Alkalinity (Salifert) = 9.9, up from 8.9
- Ammonia (Salifert) = 0
- Calcium (Salifert) = 415, up from 410
- Magnesium (Salifert) = 1219, down from 1290
- Nitrate (Salifert) = 25, up from 0
- Nitrite (Salifert) = 0
- Phospate (Hanna low range) = 0.03ppm, down from 0.08ppm
- pH (Salifert) = 8
- Salinity = 1.025

The good:
- Corals have seemed much happier the past couple of days. Most of the zoas have been fully opening, but a couple were not and had curled up edges. Today, all were fully extended. My green Nepthea and Duncan have also opened up more the past 2 days or so.
- Dinos seemed to be mostly if not completely gone today.
- My coralline algae seems to be growing faster, or maybe I can just see more of it due to my algae cleaning regiment.
- My Leptoseris, leptastrea, and Favia seem to have been generally unaffected by this whole ordeal. The Leptoseris actually seemed like it’s continued to grow throughout.

The bad:
- My phosphates have dropped throughout all of this. Not sure how that could happen with all the additional nutrients going into the tank. I only dosed 1ml of NeoPhos two different days (2ml total) and never measured and increase.
- My bowerbanki, chalice, and Duncan all visibly receded.

The ugly:
- Lost 2 chalice frags unfortunately.
- Lost all of my astrea snails (think I had 3 left). The Cerith snails seem to be unaffected.

I’m going to keep up a similar
regiment this coming week and see how things go. I plan on keeping the UV running for the week. I might also do a couple gallon water change since nitrates have increased above 20ppm as I was targeting a range of 10-20ppm. We’ll see how it goes.

 

[ScottB]

Update...

Now on week 3 without a water change and 2 weeks into my get well plan. I’ve been feeding the fish heavier while also feeding the corals with coral frenzy daily. I removed as much GHA as I could using a turkey baster, a net, and a tooth brush. I have been blasting the rocks throughout the day anytime I think about it when I’m home in order to get the Dinos into the water column. I have been changing out my filter floss daily and I installed the IM 9W UV this morning. I also cleaned my return pump today and I think that improved my flow. Finally, I dosed a little nitrate and phosphate supplements this past week. My current parameters are as follows:
- Alkalinity (Salifert) = 9.9, up from 8.9
- Ammonia (Salifert) = 0
- Calcium (Salifert) = 415, up from 410
- Magnesium (Salifert) = 1219, down from 1290
- Nitrate (Salifert) = 25, up from 0
- Nitrite (Salifert) = 0
- Phospate (Hanna low range) = 0.03ppm, down from 0.08ppm
- pH (Salifert) = 8
- Salinity = 1.025

The good:
- Corals have seemed much happier the past couple of days. Most of the zoas have been fully opening, but a couple were not and had curled up edges. Today, all were fully extended. My green Nepthea and Duncan have also opened up more the past 2 days or so.
- Dinos seemed to be mostly if not completely gone today.
- My coralline algae seems to be growing faster, or maybe I can just see more of it due to my algae cleaning regiment.
- My Leptoseris, leptastrea, and Favia seem to have been generally unaffected by this whole ordeal. The Leptoseris actually seemed like it’s continued to grow throughout.

The bad:
- My phosphates have dropped throughout all of this. Not sure how that could happen with all the additional nutrients going into the tank. I only dosed 1ml of NeoPhos two different days (2ml total) and never measured and increase.
- My bowerbanki, chalice, and Duncan all visibly receded.

The ugly:
- Lost 2 chalice frags unfortunately.
- Lost all of my astrea snails (think I had 3 left). The Cerith snails seem to be unaffected.

I’m going to keep up a similar
regiment this coming week and see how things go. I plan on keeping the UV running for the week. I might also do a couple gallon water change since nitrates have increased above 20ppm as I was targeting a range of 10-20ppm. We’ll see how it goes.

I forgot to mention that ALK and Calcium consumption tend to collapse so 2-part dosing should be reduced. Bump up your mag also to keep Alk/Ca balance easier.

I would dose PO4 to keep it closer to .1. I know you are also fighting GHA so finding a balance is tough. But raising PO4 will also lower NO3 (and vice-versa).

It is very likely that the UV will help a great deal in knocking back the dinos. You could pressure them a little more by doing a full blackout for 24-48 hours, keeping them in the water column to get zapped.

Hang in there.

 

[NanoReef303]

I forgot to mention that ALK and Calcium consumption tend to collapse so 2-part dosing should be reduced. Bump up your mag also to keep Alk/Ca balance easier.

I would dose PO4 to keep it closer to .1. I know you are also fighting GHA so finding a balance is tough. But raising PO4 will also lower NO3 (and vice-versa).

It is very likely that the UV will help a great deal in knocking back the dinos. You could pressure them a little more by doing a full blackout for 24-48 hours, keeping them in the water column to get zapped.

Hang in there.

Thanks. Since I have a 20g with moderate consumption needs, I’ve only been dosing Tropic Marin All for Reef, about 2 ml per day to date. I already started cutting that back since I noticed my Alk raising and I’ll get a mag only additive so that I can adjust just that parameter. I’ll keep up on daily NeoPhos dosing of 1ml until I see a turn around on my phosphates. Fingers crossed, things are looking better.

 

[NanoReef303]

Update...

Recent parameters:
- Alkalinity (Salifert) = 8.5
- Calcium (Salifert) = 415
- Magnesium (Salifert) = 1290
- Nitrate (Salifert) = 25
- Phospate (Hanna low range) = 0.06 ppm
- Salinity = 1.025

Performed a 20% water change this past weekend. I’ve continued blasting the rocks daily with a turkey baster, though not as frequent as early on. I’ve also reduced changing out my filter floss, probably only twice per week now. I’m keeping up coral feedings, though have cut those back to about every other day now. I’ve continued scrubbing the rocks with a toothbrush once per week. I’ve also kept the UV running 24/7 for the past 1.5 weeks. Since I was dealing with low magnesium, I’ve been dosing Brightwell Magnesion daily to get it back up to an appropriate range. I’m also dosing Brightwell NeoPhos here and there to keep my phosphates above 0.05 ppm.

Dinos appear to be gone at this point. I haven’t seen any evidence of them in the past 1.5 weeks. My GHA also seems to be mostly gone for the last week or so as well, likely a result of the manual removal I was doing. The Bryopsis remains an issue. I plan to dose fluconazole at some point, just not comfortable doing it now as I haven’t seen a full rebound in my LPS yet.

The tank generally looks a lot better. All of my softies are fully opening and looking great. All zoas look great and my green Nepthea is growing like crazy. Not so much with my LPS. My bowerbanki and chalice seem to keep receding. My Duncan is opening more fully, but also seems to still be receding a bit up from the base. I’m not sure what else to do at this point other than maintain my current parameters and routine. I’d like to dose the fluconazole to get rid of the Bryopsis, but holding off until the LPS make a turn for the better.

 

[NanoReef303]

Note the pictures above were just to show the receding LPS. The Duncan is usually much more extended, it just wasn’t happy at the moment when this was taken, which ended up revealing its base better for the pic.

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

Thanks for the update. I wish I could give you advice of what to do next, but I'm in a similar predicament, I even noticed that I had cyano on a frag plug last night. I hope someone with a bit more experience will help.

 

[NanoReef303]

Thanks for the update. I wish I could give you advice of what to do next, but I'm in a similar predicament, I even noticed that I had cyano on a frag plug last night. I hope someone with a bit more experience will help.

Yeah, I’m not too worried about the Bryopsis as I think that is generally handled pretty well with fluconazole and it’s really just more of an eye sore at this point. My primary concern is getting my LPS to bounce back. I’m hoping it’s just a matter of more time and stability and they’ll correct themselves. We’ll see, fingers crossed.

 

[ScottB]

Yeah, I’m not too worried about the Bryopsis as I think that is generally handled pretty well with fluconazole and it’s really just more of an eye sore at this point. My primary concern is getting my LPS to bounce back. I’m hoping it’s just a matter of more time and stability and they’ll correct themselves. We’ll see, fingers crossed.

After a bout of dinos, I ran an ICP test as my duncans and a couple zoas were acting fussy. Test came back 0 Iodine and 250 (versus 400 NSW) potassium. I asked around in the Chemistry forum if that was common pattern and nobody could say. Anyway, I dose some Lugols and potassium chloride and everyone perked up.

Fluconazole will do the trick on bryopsis; it is really the only way to resolve it. I would wait until you figure out the LPS issue. While we use Fluc often, 1 in ten times it does a number on acropora in a bad way. Have not figured that out yet either. Just prep for some WC when you dose and keep an eye on acros in particular.

 

[NanoReef303]

After a bout of dinos, I ran an ICP test as my duncans and a couple zoas were acting fussy. Test came back 0 Iodine and 250 (versus 400 NSW) potassium. I asked around in the Chemistry forum if that was common pattern and nobody could say. Anyway, I dose some Lugols and potassium chloride and everyone perked up.

Fluconazole will do the trick on bryopsis; it is really the only way to resolve it. I would wait until you figure out the LPS issue. While we use Fluc often, 1 in ten times it does a number on acropora in a bad way. Have not figured that out yet either. Just prep for some WC when you dose and keep an eye on acros in particular.

Thank you. I have an unused ATI ICP test so I think I’m going to pull a sample and ship that out tomorrow. Was holding off until I got back to stable parameters but I think it makes sense to pull the trigger now and just get a few others for down the road.

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

After a bout of dinos, I ran an ICP test as my duncans and a couple zoas were acting fussy. Test came back 0 Iodine and 250 (versus 400 NSW) potassium. I asked around in the Chemistry forum if that was common pattern and nobody could say. Anyway, I dose some Lugols and potassium chloride and everyone perked up.
[/QUOTE]
I thought about iodine as some of my zoas are closed up. I'm currently dosing potassium phosphate to help raise it above 0.02. Can I ask how often you dosed iodine? Also did you just stop once things looked better or did you actually test for it?

 

[NanoReef303]

Update...

Recent parameters:
- Alkalinity (Salifert) = 8.6
- Calcium (Salifert) = 405
- Magnesium (Salifert) = 1305
- Nitrate (Salifert) = ~15
- Phospate (Hanna low range) = 0.06 ppm
- Salinity = 1.025

Performed another weekly water change this past weekend. I’ve also kept up the same maintenance routine as mentioned in my update last week. On Sunday, I beefed up my CUC since I lost all my astrea snails with the Dino outbreak. I added an emerald crab, a trochus snail, an astrea snail, and 10 Cerith snails.

Still no sign of Dinos, so I think I’m in the clear. I’ve kept my UV running 24/7 just in case. My GHA is also significantly reduced but the Bryopsis remains.

All of my softies continue to look great, but my LPS are struggling. The bowerbanki and chalice keep receding and look like they may be past the point of saving. My Duncan looks great, but it too is still receding up from the base which is odd because it’s fully extended during the day and looks great otherwise. See pictures below. For all 3, receding has continued since my update last week. On the Duncan, the tissue seems to be falling off in little strips. This seems odd, so I gave it a bath in Iodine last night to see if that helps at all. I attached a picture of the Duncan tissue prior to the dip and another with it fully extended during the day.

Any suggestions on what else I can do for my struggling LPS at this point?