Mandarin gasping and coughing. Need help diagnosing.

[TedsReef]

After about 9 days in my tank my mandarin started doing a lot of mouth movements while breathing and what looks like coughing. At first I thought she was blowing water to clear algae to look for pods but the more I observed the more it looks involuntary. She seemed a little more sluggish today but was still hunting for pods. I took a video tonight of the breathing. I'll try to get a better one tomorrow when she is active.

I do not see signs indicating damage or infection around her gills or anywhere else on her body. She's been scarfing down tisbe since I added her and ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and salinity are normal. If anyone can offer any help or what I should be looking for in the coming days to help the diagnosis I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[JoshH]

How old is this system? And could you list your parameters for us please?


#Reefsquad any thoughts on what might be happening here?

 

[EmdeReef]

+1 on how old is the system?

Is her stomach pinched? How active is she?

 

[TedsReef]

System has been cycled for 2 months. Ammonia and nitrites are 0. Nitrates are under 5ppm. Salinity 1.024. 20 gallon.

Stomach doesn’t look pinched (by pinched do you mean extremely malnourished?). She was very active leading up to this and is still moderately active.

 

[TedsReef]

Here is another video. She's out in her normal areas looking for pods but she's mostly stationary instead of moving around constantly. The only thing I've changed in the last 3 days is soaking her cyclopeez in Selcon and garlic xtreme before giving it to her (still training and she isn't accepting frozen yet). Also, I added a Hollywood stunner chalice. I don't see any signs of a sting on her body but perhaps she still got hit? I've also seen the appearance of what I believe is coralline algae (purple spots - you can see one on the upper portion of the rock in the beginning of the video) on the rocks and those spots are definitely increasing in size. Not sure if that can attest to system stability or not.

 

[TedsReef]

Other things to note - right now it's the only fish in the tank as my yellow clown goby is in my QT. I did read a post where someone said Mandarins can panic if they're the only fish in the tank (no other fish = predators around). I haven't read anything else other than this post from years ago on that topic but could she just be stressing out now that she's realized there are no other fish in the tank?

 

[EmdeReef]

Is this a captive bred mandarin? How big is the tank? How many times a day do you feed her? At 2mos your system is very young for a mandarin even if all the params are stable. They need to eat almost constantly. Assuming all params are stable my guess would be nutrition. @HotRocks? @Big G?

 

[TedsReef]

@melypr1985 @Humblefish can either of you give any input? I've read a lot of your diagnosis and treatment articles but I can't pinpoint anything to know if/how I should treat.

Summary of info:
- Symptoms of mandarin: Mouth movement and deep gill movements. Much less active. No visible body trauma, excess mucus, spots, etc.
- Tank was stocked with tisbe pods for approx 1 month prior to the introduction of the mandarin (no previous copepod predators). She had been actively hunting and eating the pods.
- Tank has been cycled for ~ 2months. Tank was cycled using dry rock, live sand, and bac in a bottle along with dr. Tims ammonia.
- Ammonia & Nitrite 0ppm. Nitrate < 5ppm. Salinity 1.024. I've checked ca, mg, and phos levels twice since cycle and everything was on-par.
- 20g Red Sea max nano
- Mandarin was introduced to the tank with a yellow clown goby but now the mandarin is the only fish in the tank. Yellow clown is in a 1g QT for what I believe was malnourishment (all symptoms cleared up in less than 1 week. Thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/s...clown-goby-pics-attached.493990/#post-5308237 )
- I've been attempting to train the mandarin with frozen cyclopeez soaked in Selcon and garlic xtreme
- Started to add 2 drops of garlic extreme to the tank per day
- Feeding: 2x a day I 'train' feed the mandarin 0.5-1ml hikari frozen cyclopod+ soaked in Selcon and garlic extreme. Every 4 days I spot feed reef roids to corals. Nightly, I add 5-10ml of algae barn's phtyomagik.
- Other tank inhabitants: 1x Astraea, 3x banded trochus, 2x cerith, 1x nassarius, 1x fighting conch, 1x porcelain crab, ~3" Hollywood stunner chalice, 3x zoa/paly

Can fish have allergies? Perhaps something is growing in my tank that is causing gill irritation? Here are some tank pictures. I've never scraped the back wall and rarely scrape the left side of the tank glass (it's against a wall) so to provide copepod habitat and food source.

 

[TedsReef]

Is this a captive bred mandarin? How big is the tank? How many times a day do you feed her? At 2mos your system is very young for a mandarin even if all the params are stable. They need to eat almost constantly. Assuming all params are stable my guess would be nutrition. @HotRocks? @Big G?

It is not a captive bred mandarin. Tank is 20g and was seeded with tisbe pods for 1 month prior to her being introduced (no previous copepod predators). I culture tisbe pods and have been adding 1/2 the culture to the tank every 2 weeks. Tisbe were everywhere and I still see plenty in the tank. She has been actively hunting and pecking at the walls, rocks, and sand (which I assume means she's been catching pods). I added 3/4 bottle of reef nutrition tigger pods last night (kept all pumps off for 1hr after 'spot feeding' them into rocks, substrate, and other hiding areas) and ordered more tisbe and tigger from @AlgaeBarn which should be arriving mid next week.

She is not currently eating frozen foods but I attempt 'training' twice a day with 0.5-1.0 ml frozen cyclopeez soaked in Selcon and garlic xtreme.

 

[TedsReef]

Is it possible she inhaled algae? I just noticed some hanging on her left gill - not sure if it's completely external or if it went in through her mouth and out through a gill and got caught. I'm trying to get a better look and may run out and buy a breeder basket to put her in for closer observation. Any suggestions? Think it's worth the stress to the fish?

 

[TedsReef]

Taking the least drastic measures first - I'm going to assume some type of bacteria increase due to using Selcon for several days in a row. I'm swapping my air pump from the qt to the dt for a day and I'll see if there are any signs of improvement.

 

[Kenfishy]

I think your tank is too new. Even if you seed with copepods they won’t survive without phytoplankton and nutrients from fish. He’s probably starving.

 

[JoshH]

I do agree your tank is entirely too new(it can take 6+ months to establish a self sustaining pod population even if you're adding them monthly and feeding) and I would say also a little on the small size for a mandarin. Not impossible to keep but makes things exceptionally difficult especially for a wild caught specimen. I would look into getting some live brine shrimp and building a feeder similar to @Paul B . You can Google brine shrimp feeder and his design will pop up. I'll call the #Reefsquad in again and see if anyone else has other thoughts on the situation, but I would highly recommend getting on top of the feeder to give a relatively constant supply of food for your little guy as a start.

Also, if you can find it, nutrimar ova is something I've read can really helps get wild mandarins eating non-live food.

 

[TedsReef]

I think your tank is too new. Even if you seed with copepods they won’t survive without phytoplankton and nutrients from fish. He’s probably starving.

Copepods are thriving. I can look on any surface in the tank, especially back wall and glass, and see an increasing number each day. I dose phyto every night and use some of the excess reef roid mixture along the rocks and back wall for meaty foods every 4 days. She has been actively hunting and pecking since she arrived 10 days ago so even if there weren't enough pods I'm surprised to see an issue this soon. A picture is below of the back wall so you can see the copepod density in that area. In the darker black areas (where snails cleared algae and bubbles) all of the specks are copepods.

I do agree your tank is entirely too new(it can take 6+ months to establish a self sustaining pod population even if you're adding them monthly and feeding) and I would say also a little on the small size for a mandarin. Not impossible to keep but makes things exceptionally difficult especially for a wild caught specimen. I would look into getting some live brine shrimp and building a feeder similar to @Paul B . You can Google brine shrimp feeder and his design will pop up. I'll call the #Reefsquad in again and see if anyone else has other thoughts on the situation, but I would highly recommend getting on top of the feeder to give a relatively constant supply of food for your little guy as a start.

Also, if you can find it, nutrimar ova is something I've read can really helps get wild mandarins eating non-live food.

Thanks for the help. Live brine are on the way (ordered last week). I'll call around for nutrimar. I've got a tisbe culture going as well. I'm also beginning to ask around my area (Denver) for anyone that has the experience, capabilities, and desire for another mandarin. My goal is her survival and if that means she has to go with someone else I'm for it.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Taking the least drastic measures first - I'm going to assume some type of bacteria increase due to using Selcon for several days in a row. I'm swapping my air pump from the qt to the dt for a day and I'll see if there are any signs of improvement.

Do this.

Also , IMO , cut the phyto and reef roids back just because it’s likely too much for the bio filter.

Quite possible it’s just new tank, not food /pod supply, I don’t think mandies are what one would consider hardy as first fish in a new dry rock style tank.
Hard to say.



Best of luck , hopefully just indigestion.

 

[JoshH]

Thanks for the help. Live brine are on the way (ordered last week). I'll call around for nutrimar. I've got a tisbe culture going as well. I'm also beginning to ask around my area (Denver) for anyone that has the experience, capabilities, and desire for another mandarin. My goal is her survival and if that means she has to go with someone else I'm for it.

Gotta love a new reefer with a plan B, C and D, I'm pretty sure the feeder utilizes brine shrimp eggs as hatched brine shrimp are only nutritious for a 12-24 hours before the yolk sac is all used up. Atleast you've gone into this with the right mindset @saltyfilmfolks might be on to something with over feeding phyto and reefroids as well.

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

Is your clown goby in qt for a problem?

I agree that your tank is too new and too small. I think your mandy does look thin.

However, if it isn't eating any pods that are present or if it isn't hunting and pecking , I think water quality or parasite is the culprit here.

Best to rehome it and gain some experience with less demanding fish. Dont feel bad, we've all made mistakes.

Best of luck

 

[TedsReef]

Is your clown goby in qt for a problem?

I agree that your tank is too new and too small. I think your mandy does look thin.

However, if it isn't eating any pods that are present or if it isn't hunting and pecking , I think water quality or parasite is the culprit here.

Best to rehome it and gain some experience with less demanding fish. Dont feel bad, we've all made mistakes.

Best of luck

Clown goby wasn't eating in the dt so I moved him to qt. Less than a week has gone by and he's doing great. I'm saddened that the mandarin is having issues this quickly. I did a ton of research and thought I had a solid foundation laid out. Water params are all in line so perhaps its an algae or bacteria issue that isn't causing visible issues.

Do this.

Also , IMO , cut the phyto and reef roids back just because it’s likely too much for the bio filter.

Quite possible it’s just new tank, not food /pod supply, I don’t think mandies are what one would consider hardy as first fish in a new dry rock style tank.
Hard to say.



Best of luck , hopefully just indigestion.

Thanks. I'll cut the phyto and roids for 1-2 weeks. I'll also stop adding Selcon to the dt feedings.

 

[The_Underwater_Gardener]

Hi there, I’m having the same issue. How is your mandarin doing now?

 

[TedsReef]

Hi there, I’m having the same issue. How is your mandarin doing now?

She died within a few days, unfortunately. I'd QT and start treating with broad spec treatments similar to the QT methods stickied on these forums. Still not sure what it was. I'm thinking some combination between malnutrition (she had stopped eating) and whatever illness she had. It could be something in your system too if it's too new. That was my only other guess on what happened in my situation.