Metal Halides are the bomb

[A. grandis]

I just think the reason for them and other ppl not selling is there not a “big selling item “ for them when everyone thinks leds are the best so they stock what sells a lot . Am going to run mh for as long as I can I had leds for along time and was never happy with them

I still believe there is a great movement to push LEDs at the moment. The market follows what the chanting says. If a bigger company does something, the smaller companies tend to follow.
In the halide/T5 case it's actually happening differently though, and I'm glad!
Aquacave told me the only reason why they don't have much halide gear in stock right now is because Hamilton is out of stock and they think the late manufacture/restock is due to COVID, which is most likely the truth, of course.
Marine Depot took over part of the halide customers from BRS, as far as I know.
Premium Aquatics took over for ReefBite, and still sells Hamilton.
Hamilton will also be selling on their web site.
I think it's a matter of time to see many more going back or discovering halides and ditching their LEDs for good, like the public aquariums are doing.

 

[A. grandis]

They will eventually go away. I bet we have at least 5 years though and we can always buy up the bulbs and just hang onto them. Ballasts and reflectors will be available from the horticulture industry for a lot longer. I have talked to many cannabis growers and all said they only like LED when young. They get much better yields out of halide. However, I don't know nearly enough on that topic to talk about it. I can only share what the growers told me.

Tullio says that many public aquariums are swithcing back to halides after they noticed a very large delcine in health of their habitats under LEDs. It is in the above video.

I also spoke with BRS about the possibility of drop shipments through Reef Brite and it was very well received. Let's hope that happens soon enough.

They are saying they will eventually go away for more then 15 years. It's just one more marketing strategy from LED companies!!!!! Point is they can't be substituted by LEDS, period! It's phisically impossible as far as we know.

The public aquariums should release the info so people could believe and see how different they are, and how unhealthy LEDs are, per what they said.

I also suggested the drop-off shipments from Hamilton and ReefBrite to BRS, but the guy on the phone said he didn't think that would happen. I also told them people are importing Giesemann Spectra and Infinity with bulbs from EU because they removed them from the web site. He just said "sorry". I guess if more people call them they could listen? Not if the plan is to sell those puck$ and panel$ for much more $$$$$$!!!

 

[A. grandis]

One thing I really don't understand is: after all the videos we see Tullio speaking over and over about the huge benefits of metal halides and T5s, and the public aquariums saying they have changed back to halides because of the HEALTH of the animals...
Why so many LED users totally ignore those facts and results to choose an INFERIOR type of lighting???? They must love to save pennies in their own minds, I guess!
What's more important? To be "proud" of saving electricity, or to be proud of keeping their corals at their very best?
By the way, saving electricity is already one of the misleading information the LED chanting is working in their minds. Specially after Dr. Sanjay confirmed that what per what is the way to go to try to get the same results!

 

[rtparty]

They are saying they will eventually go away for more then 15 years. It's just one more marketing strategy from LED companies!!!!! Point is they can't be substituted by LEDS, period! It's phisically impossible as far as we know.

The public aquariums should release the info so people could believe and see how different they are, and how unhealthy LEDs are, per what they said.

I also suggested the drop-off shipments from Hamilton and ReefBrite to BRS, but the guy on the phone said he didn't think that would happen. I also told them people are importing Giesemann Spectra and Infinity with bulbs from EU because they removed them from the web site. He just said "sorry". I guess if more people call them they could listen? Not if the plan is to sell those puck$ and panel$ for much more $$$$$$!!!

The truth is halides and T5s will go away. It isn't a matter of if, but when. Our industry has ZERO choice in the matter. It isn't marketing that Eurpore is phasing out the fluorescent bulbs. The US will follow suit. Is that 5 years from now? 10? I have no idea but it will happen. This is the inevitable path we are on as a society.

LEDs have made some serious leaps the last couple years. At least when discussing how we use them over our tanks. In 5 years, there may be some breakthrough or we simply understand how to better utilize the technology.

I also didn't just call in to BRS and talk to them about this. I went a little higher than that. Does that mean we see anything come out of it? No clue, but their new website platform makes drop shipping much, much easier. So we may see it and I really hope we do.

If we really want to bring business into this, it would benefit ALL of these companies to sell people bulb replacements every year. They would make more than selling new LEDs every 5 years. But the truth is people aren't buying halides like crazy. Yes, the halide companies have seen an uptick in sales but it is a drop in the bucket. About 1 in every 1000 fixtures sold has been halide. It makes zero sense to take up shelf space for that.

So, I love halides. I run halides. I have ZERO plans to change. Nothing has touched their performance for me. I can also understand they won't be around long term. 5-10 years tops IMO.

 

[A. grandis]

The truth is halides and T5s will go away. It isn't a matter of if, but when. Our industry has ZERO choice in the matter. It isn't marketing that Eurpore is phasing out the fluorescent bulbs. The US will follow suit. Is that 5 years from now? 10? I have no idea but it will happen. This is the inevitable path we are on as a society.

LEDs have made some serious leaps the last couple years. At least when discussing how we use them over our tanks. In 5 years, there may be some breakthrough or we simply understand how to better utilize the technology.

I also didn't just call in to BRS and talk to them about this. I went a little higher than that. Does that mean we see anything come out of it? No clue, but their new website platform makes drop shipping much, much easier. So we may see it and I really hope we do.

If we really want to bring business into this, it would benefit ALL of these companies to sell people bulb replacements every year. They would make more than selling new LEDs every 5 years. But the truth is people aren't buying halides like crazy. Yes, the halide companies have seen an uptick in sales but it is a drop in the bucket. About 1 in every 1000 fixtures sold has been halide. It makes zero sense to take up shelf space for that.

So, I love halides. I run halides. I have ZERO plans to change. Nothing has touched their performance for me. I can also understand they won't be around long term. 5-10 years tops IMO.

I understand what you said. That is what have been going around though.
Truth is only God Knows.
I do not believe it WILL be totally gone. There is a possibility, of course.
There is also the possibility for LEDs to be gone, if the truth of the matter and the most important thing should be the health of the animals, as for what some public aquariums have imposed lately, agree? That is a huge revelation for many new hobbyists, but only if they care!
Marketing is only good if people buy.
In 2010 people called me crazy when I've told them halides would come back when people realize the importance of the QUALITY of light per say, and not all the whistles and bells coming with the LEDs. Things are changing a bit today. Could this be the beginning of a new era for the halides? Maybe! Again, only God knows!
Metal halide technology didn't stop either! We are also seeing more and more ceramic metal halide systems available with new bulbs and ballasts lately. We have ReefBrite's cool to the touch fixtures and Twin arcs to last longer. Dimmable ballasts...
I wouldn't be surprised if an horticultural company starts to producing some new halide gear for our reefs. That could also happen!
Who knows...

 

[jda]

Fools errand to compare speciality lighting to general purpose. There is no mandate from any government in any country to stop making specialty bulbs. VHO bulbs are still being made for speciality purposes... until they are really gone, not much need to worry about other mercury type bulbs. Heat lamps, incubation lamps for people/babies, cultures, etc.

Money and profit will be what mostly drives this particular issue for us if LED does not actually get better... Hamilton and Giesemann, at least, are making money selling MH bulbs and fixtures. It has been a long time since I have seen RB at a show or spoken with Tullio, but they were making money a few years ago. Both RB and Hamilton make enough to have invested in new formulas for dual arc, low IR and other types of new bulbs.

I had an assignment a few years ago to value a grow business - hippie lettuce is big money here. That business, nor the dozen that I used as comparables, used LEDs. A few had all of the LEDs that I wanted in a pile in the corner to take for free. They could measure THC content and it was down too much and they saved no wattage (what we have found out). They were all MV, HPS, MH, etc... few T5s... in any case, mercury... and specialty like this hobby is. Sun still did about 50% of the lifting in their greenhouses.

Anybody remember being a young child in the 80s with the promises of hovercraft, hydrogen cars, solar cars, etc. by the turn of the century. Heck, it was 2001 A Space Odyssey, not 2100 A Space Odyssey. Even if actual new viable stuff does come along, it always drags out longer than anybody thinks. I know that this is a big-time false equivalency, but it is not a complete waste of thought... Even if GM and Ford make only electric vehicles by 2030, there will still be gas pumps everywhere for a few more decades and some around here and there for a few hundred years.

What would really kill of mercury lighting if if LED was actually as good. I mean actually to where nobody had any gripes about any performance issue. This is probably the most likely although not much has changed with LED since blue/white only fixtures have went to mixed diodes... only the mixes really seem to change... and programs. ...but who knows what might happen in the future where all is possible.

 

[TaylorPilot]

Fools errand to compare speciality lighting to general purpose. There is no mandate from any government in any country to stop making specialty bulbs. VHO bulbs are still being made for speciality purposes... until they are really gone, not much need to worry about other mercury type bulbs. Heat lamps, incubation lamps for people/babies, cultures, etc.

Money and profit will be what mostly drives this particular issue for us if LED does not actually get better... Hamilton and Giesemann, at least, are making money selling MH bulbs and fixtures. It has been a long time since I have seen RB at a show or spoken with Tullio, but they were making money a few years ago. Both RB and Hamilton make enough to have invested in new formulas for dual arc, low IR and other types of new bulbs.

I had an assignment a few years ago to value a grow business - hippie lettuce is big money here. That business, nor the dozen that I used as comparables, used LEDs. A few had all of the LEDs that I wanted in a pile in the corner to take for free. They could measure THC content and it was down too much and they saved no wattage (what we have found out). They were all MV, HPS, MH, etc... few T5s... in any case, mercury... and specialty like this hobby is. Sun still did about 50% of the lifting in their greenhouses.

Anybody remember being a young child in the 80s with the promises of hovercraft, hydrogen cars, solar cars, etc. by the turn of the century. Heck, it was 2001 A Space Odyssey, not 2100 A Space Odyssey. Even if actual new viable stuff does come along, it always drags out longer than anybody thinks. I know that this is a big-time false equivalency, but it is not a complete waste of thought... Even if GM and Ford make only electric vehicles by 2030, there will still be gas pumps everywhere for a few more decades and some around here and there for a few hundred years.

What would really kill of mercury lighting if if LED was actually as good. I mean actually to where nobody had any gripes about any performance issue. This is probably the most likely although not much has changed with LED since blue/white only fixtures have went to mixed diodes... only the mixes really seem to change... and programs. ...but who knows what might happen in the future where all is possible.

I think that LED might be a transitional technology, atleast in these specific industries. I was born in 82 and I liken this to when the CD came out. When the CD came out everyone said they were great because they didn't have pops and that the LP was doomed...30 years later you can't find a CD and a 1964 turn table motor that needs work sales for $8,000. A fully restored one cost as much as a new M3. I still think plasma would be an awesome tech if they could get the spectrum right.

I think making them illegal would be a great idea. Only people with special licenses could get MH bulbs, they make the bulbs $500 a piece and only the best of the best reef keepers could get them and so everyone would want them...

 

[jda]

I have McIntosh tube amps, turntable and a room full of LPs behind me right now. I also make stuff out of wood and even though I mostly make pieces for me, people will pay 10x for stuff made with hand tools that are 100 years old with no power. It is true in so many areas. Film still has depth and clarity that digital cannot touch.

The issue with licenses is that you hurt SO many industries that need them. Vaccine making, medical experiments all use mercury stuff still... film (no, not everybody can use digital)... and the list goes on. Imagine if research to make the another Corona vaccine could not use the stuff that worked when they made the ones before it (C19 was not the first vaccine for a coronavirus). Specialty stuff is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things and you would probably waste more resources coming up with laws and enforcement than you would gain from our industry just keeping on keeping on. Then, what is next? Gas for ATVs, boats or anything that does not serve a functional purpose (no fun stuff)? Wattage for mining crypto (which is a lot)? Slippery slope for non general purpose stuff.

It is a good point that some solution from out of nowhere could be the next thing. Who knows, right? I don't use my MH for nostalgia... I would replace them if something was just as good (or better) and helped the world out... I don't even care if it costs more. If I ever have a non-basement tank, I will be using solar tubes for some of the light, which is hardly new tech. Plasma was the rage for the bleeding edge reefers a while back, but not much came of it.

 

[A. grandis]

I will also say here that when I've tried LEDs, and still looked for a LED solution to give same or at least similar results I already had, I was indeed genuinely and positively trying to accept the change. When I saw the differences in results I didn't want to justify my investment and simply sold the LED fixtures!!! I'm not here to make the LED companies happy, while the opposite should be the truth! Not many people do that, and unfortunately the majority actually don't know better cause they never tried halides and/or T5s! Also the sponsorships and the market around Youtube channels and their own channels are acting in their favor. LED companies invest big on time and money to self approve their plastic lights!

It's just physically impossible to supply all the qualities of spectrum, intensity, distribution and delivery of photons the way halides do. Just like T5s... same thing. One does not substitute the other. LEDs also have it's own place, but unfortunately it simply falls into that supplementation track, when comparing to halides and/or T5s, specially after the public aquariums attested their priority for halides in order to achieve healthier colonies.
They are all different. You can compare LEDs with LEDs, but that's it!
I think we could be in the beginning of a halide/T5 revolution (?).

We just need halide and T5 manufacturers to advertise more, so they would sell more and consequently more competitors would come to the market! If that happen, we would be surprised of how much halide would evolve in a very short time! That could be the end of LED lighting as a primary source in any reef application.

How can we ignore this guy saying that if we care about our reef tanks?

 

[TaylorPilot]

It's about money. To light a 120-180 with mh I need to spend around 800 to a grand. With kessil or radion I would need to spend double to triple that. You say, yea but they will buy bulbs every 6 months to a year. Problem is that most people only stay in the hobby for 12-18 months. Also, mh don't really need to be upgraded. They pretty much just work. But some guys who have been in the hobby for 8-10 years might be on their 3 set of radions. That is literally 6-8k worth of lights they have bought on a normal 6' tank over that time. The ONLY real thing that LED has going for it is the form factor.

 

[A. grandis]

No new fixtures, no upgrades for a life time with best results. No need for upgrades.
To change bulbs is to refresh the whole system at once and keep it's optimal qualities.
My hand never fell for changing bulbs nor my wallet had a huge whole because of that.
Yeah, and the form factor of LED fixtures basically have came to it's limits in terms of abilities and price per fixture. Just can't change it's nature.
Maybe they were right when they've said "the Sky is the limit". LOL!!!!!!!!

 

[Kfactor]

No new fixtures, no upgrades for a life time with best results. No need for upgrades.
To change bulbs is to refresh the whole system at once and keep it's optimal qualities.
My hand never fell for changing bulbs nor my wallet had a huge whole because of that.
Yeah, and the form factor of LED fixtures basically have came to it's limits in terms of abilities and price per fixture. Just can't change it's nature.
Maybe they were right when they've said "the Sky is the limit". LOL!!!!!!!!

The reefbum video says it all and by the sound of it mh can’t be bet and never will not in the near future anyway led is at there limits no matter what way the build it

 

[TaylorPilot]

So what do you guys think are the actual limitations? Spread, color, intensity? To me the just don't look as good. People keep saying they have come so far in the last 5-7 years, but to me, there really hasn't been any innovations to the LED since they first came out...they are just the same thing with a few more colors and more widgets

 

[zalick]

So what do you guys think are the actual limitations? Spread, color, intensity? To me the just don't look as good. People keep saying they have come so far in the last 5-7 years, but to me, there really hasn't been any innovations to the LED since they first came out...they are just the same thing with a few more colors and more widgets

Agreed. My lighting progression has been power compact to halides to T5 To DIY LEDs to Kessil to mitras + kessils, then just mitras and back to halides with my mitras to do morning and evening.

I welcome the heat. My heaters no longer run during the day.

I use 2 - 250w halides. 500 watts. I ran 6 kessil a360 (540 watts) and they didn’t cover enough.

people who say they ran 500 watts of halides and now run 300 watts of LEDs could have achieved the same results of the LEDs with 300 watts of halides.

the whole “use less watts” is a total myth.

Im not an old man clinging to my halides. I’ve purchased 6 kessil a360 and 5 mitras LX7. $5k total. Mostly collecting dust now. I want LEDs to perform better than halides. They just don’t and I want the best regardless of cost.

I just spent far more replacing the tubes on my amp than a new digital amp would cost. And the sound coming out of my Klipsch corner horns sounds like you are sitting in front of the live music.


I’m clinging to my halides like I cling to my Klipsh cornerhorns for a reason. :)

 

[A. grandis]

So what do you guys think are the actual limitations? Spread, color, intensity? To me the just don't look as good. People keep saying they have come so far in the last 5-7 years, but to me, there really hasn't been any innovations to the LED since they first came out...they are just the same thing with a few more colors and more widgets

Everything. They are very distinct by nature in every sense.
Just watch those videos where Tullio says a lot about all that.
Also, results don't lie.
I think we are talking too much about LEDs already. LOL!
This is a halide thread for God's sake! LOL!
And yes, metal halides are the bomb!

 

[A. grandis]

Agreed. My lighting progression has been power compact to halides to T5 To DIY LEDs to Kessil to mitras + kessils, then just mitras and back to halides with my mitras to do morning and evening.

I welcome the heat. My heaters no longer run during the day.

I use 2 - 250w halides. 500 watts. I ran 6 kessil a360 (540 watts) and they didn’t cover enough.

people who say they ran 500 watts of halides and now run 300 watts of LEDs could have achieved the same results of the LEDs with 300 watts of halides.

the whole “use less watts” is a total myth.

Im not an old man clinging to my halides. I’ve purchased 6 kessil a360 and 5 mitras LX7. $5k total. Mostly collecting dust now. I want LEDs to perform better than halides. They just don’t and I want the best regardless of cost.

I just spent far more replacing the tubes on my amp than a new digital amp would cost. And the sound coming out of my Klipsch corner horns sounds like you are sitting in front of the live music.


I’m clinging to my halides like I cling to my Klipsh cornerhorns for a reason. :)

In regards to the watt per watt... I don't think it's quite like that because of the different qualities of light. Even Sanjay Joshi already confirmed that he wouldn't have the same results using watt per watt (halide vs LEDs). He is actually using more watts with LEDs right now than he was using with halides and still didn't get the results from halides. That is very clear in most cases! Different results using different productions of photons.

The idea is indeed substitute halides with LEDs using AT LEAST the same wattage, as you said, but the results will be different due to spectrum and delivery of those photons produced by each source. But, yeah, the watt per watt idea should be followed when using LEDs. Problem is that the manufacturers give their instructions to use less wattage and "everyone" believes them! If they use the same wattage they will burn their corals anyway!

 

[jda]

Coverage, color and a growth are the limitations to me. I keep mostly acropora. I doubt that most softies and LPS will care, but they certainly do well under MH as well. I want to be able to keep any kind acropora that I want in any place. Some acros will grow just as fast and look nearly the same, but not all. I have larger tanks and the heat is welcome and so is the spread from reflectors. I do not struggle with some acropora like some keepers do, and I attribute about half of that to the light and the other half to high-throughput NSW residual type tanks.

I don't even care about the LED cost... which is more for me having large tanks. If they were better, I would pony up 20k for new panels. I don't care about a few failures or 5 year lifespan (average), since I would pay to replace them if they were better. I would put up with the apps even though anything more than a timer is likely lost on me.

For me, it is pure performance. I feel an obligation to provide these creatures with 100% of what I can do, and not a subset.

 

[A. grandis]

I can have only zoanthids here and I see a huge difference in most tanks with different LEDs in colony/polyp structure. Also pigment formation is huge in zoanthids. Some of the species I keep do great under T5s, but will only fully develop the pigments under halides. My comparison is with what I see in the wild, where I collected them, so... I feel so sorry when I see people having a "great time" showing off their tanks with poor colony formation and so many zoanthids struggling and they really believe those polyps are doing amazing with their LED reflections. They do ok, but not as they should, and in the long run it gets worse. I don't even want to comment on SPS corals. It's very ugly to me when they grow all "broken" and weird. Unless you have some T5 mimic panels, which still lack in spectrum and proper intensity, comparing to a halide systems. Just compare Dr. Sanjay's tanks and that is the best example. Many have him as "the reference" for lighting and "growing SPS like no one else".

 

[Bpb]

Just compare Dr. Sanjay's tanks and that is the best example. Many have him as "the reference" for lighting and "growing SPS like no one else".

Not debating lighting here, because despite not presently using them, still a big MH fan and genuinely hope they remain available. But I don’t know that in practice that many people still cling to the old school guys as their reference, even the acro obsessed. I’m not downplaying anything any of the pioneers have done. They’re far better than me at this hobby, I just know enough people in my local reef clubs that grow bigger and more colorful colonies of sps at what I would consider a nuisance rate under every lighting tech. Most of them focus more on stability and nailing down their water than obsessing over lighting or worshipping the old-school guys. They’re writing their own chapters.

Just saying yes the classics deserve a degree of reverence, but I think a lot of talent is out there performing at every bit as high of a level, through greater understanding of husbandry than was present in the 1990’s

 

[A. grandis]

Not debating lighting here, because despite not presently using them, still a big MH fan and genuinely hope they remain available. But I don’t know that in practice that many people still cling to the old school guys as their reference, even the acro obsessed. I’m not downplaying anything any of the pioneers have done. They’re far better than me at this hobby, I just know enough people in my local reef clubs that grow bigger and more colorful colonies of sps at what I would consider a nuisance rate under every lighting tech. Most of them focus more on stability and nailing down their water than obsessing over lighting or worshipping the old-school guys. They’re writing their own chapters.

Just saying yes the classics deserve a degree of reverence, but I think a lot of talent is out there performing at every bit as high of a level, through greater understanding of husbandry than was present in the 1990’s

Yeah, when I tell people my experiences they don't give me too much credit (except for the zoa club! LOL!) because I can only grow zoanthids at home. The only reason I mention Dr. Sanjay is because of his reputation in growing corals and lighting advice. I just use that as a guide and example. I don't worship anything but God.
I get your point and understand that. The hobby today is very different than during the 90's. That's for sure! The values have changed significantly. Perhaps would be great to bring some of those values back. Most of what we have in the market today is unnecessary and just to turn the money around IMO. The majority of the serious literature, was published back then. Internet came to dilute information and allow beginners to become masters instantly on Youtube. And those who know better are getting paid to promote LEDs. It's a mess!