Mindstream Aquarium Monitor

[bsstover]

I have backed this product for several reasons. Primarily, it will give me a little more free time from water testing in the evening. One of the big hangups for people seems to be the cost of the device. I still don't understand why people (myself included) are so willing to go and spend hundreds of dollars on LED lights, the latest pumps (gyre for example), etc without so much of a question of whether or not they are getting a product that will benefit their reefs over what they currently have. This device can offer a peace of mind that I for one think is worth every penny and give us immediate insight to the health of our reefs. For me, the ability to nearly instantly monitor even just a few key tank parameters without taking the time to do drip tests or question my color detection ability is worth the cost alone. I too have concerns about "what if they don't make it?" I counter that with the simple thought, that if I don't try to support them, they may never make it, which means it may take a very long time before a product similar to this will be brought to market. The simple thought of looking at color reactions forever just pains me.

 

[jolt]

Guys, I'm pretty new to this hobby and am not quite to the point many of you are with multiple high-volume tanks and dosing 18 different elements, but here's my thoughts on the cost matter.
To sum up: Long term, it does not cost substantially more than test kits. And I wish I had the initial investment to drop on it via kickstarter, but I've spent too much money on my tank already for the year.

Love this kind of analysis. I may have to spring for the kickstarter now!! (Are you an accountant by trade ??)

 

[lysaer]

Nope, just big on finding the best value for anything I want/need.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Guys, I'm pretty new to this hobby and am not quite to the point many of you are with multiple high-volume tanks and dosing 18 different elements, but here's my thoughts on the cost matter.

Initial cost: Let's say $700 as that's the highest retail cost I've seen. Discs: Let's say $30/month with the discs being swapped out every 30 days. Total first year cost: $1,060 US. Additional years: $360.

Now, let's look at test kits. Salifert seems to be a highly recommended brand, so let's use those. And let's say a Salifert kit, on average, lasts 3 months before you use it up. And let's use Amazon pricing because that tends to be the lowest average price.

Ammonia: $21, Magnesium: $19, Calcium: $19, Potassium: $25 (not amazon, elsewhere), Kh/Alk: $15, pH: $19, CO2: Not available, requires probe/control unit (as far as I can tell), O2: Not available, requires probe/control unit (as far as I can tell), Temperature: Thermometer costs vary - say $5 for a cheapo external display wired probe like I have, Salinity: Refractometers range from $22-$75

First quarter cost: $126. Additional quarters: $99. Yearly cost: $423.

Yes, that's a lot less up front than the Mindstream. And the Mindstream does not monitor nitrites/nitrates (initial sensors: Alkalinity, calcium, potassium, magnesium, CO2, O2, temperature, salinity, ammonia and pH) but clearly has the capacity to add later. However, you're manually titrating solutions in vials and jars to get the chemical numbers, and if you want CO2 and O2 numbers you have to buy something with a probe that can monitor that stuff, so that's added value with the Mindstream. Plus, to my mind, the saving of labor over time is great when I can just pull up a website or my phone and check the tank status - especially if I'm away from home for an extended time when I would normally be there to make adjustments as needed.

But a little further break down of cost reveals:

Mindstream: 5 year cost: $2500. Monthly average cost over 5 years: $41.67
Manual testing: 5 year cost: $2007. Monthly average cost over 5 years: $33.45

Now the numbers look more reasonable. That's a monthly difference of $8.22. I bet most people spend more than that on lunch at least once a month.

There are many variables here too. If the discs cost $60/month, that's a substantial increase. But if the discs last 3 months in your tank, that's $20/month for the disc at the highest price, lowering the monthly average even further. Speaking of lasting 1-3 months or more, look at what Mindstream has said - they maintain the highest accuracy for a guaranteed 30 days. How accurate do you want your values? From everything I'm reading/hearing/seeing, the discs will maintain higher accuracy than a titration test for several months.

So let's use a best case scenario: $30 discs, you get the unit in the kickstarter, and the discs last 3 months in your tank with regular cleaning (surely, if you're saving 2 hours of testing time every week you can take 10 minutes to rinse the disc in RO/DI water).

Unit: $495 w/1 disc. 3 add'l discs: $90. Yearly cost: $585. 5 year cost: $1065. Monthly average cost over 5 years: $17.75. That's almost HALF the cost of test kits.

To sum up: Long term, it does not cost substantially more than test kits. And I wish I had the initial investment to drop on it via kickstarter, but I've spent too much money on my tank already for the year.

While I think that only individuals can decide for themselves what levels of testing and automation are worth what price, and I'm not discounting the benefits of the Mindstream, your comparison made some marginal assumptions about what kits people will use and how often they will need to replace them.

Ammonia on an established tank? No. Not needed at all, IMO. Perhaps the Mindstream might provide some interesting data if it does the very low end well so it can be detected in a reef tank, but that remains to be seen.

Magnesium can probably be measured once a month and be more than enough. Possibly the same for potassium. Both change slowly, if at all.

pH via test kit? Not desirable, although a meter will also cost, but is more mobile and so can have other uses.

Salinity? Some of the devices we use are used in multiple locations (like new salt water as well as the tank; maybe even limewater potency). You cannot replace that need with the Mindstream.

 

[lysaer]

I know, everything was making assumptions based on the needs that I see in my immediate future, average use of the beginner/intermediate, etc etc. Just like the longterm accuracy of the discs can't be predicted due to tank variations, just putting my thought on the whole thing out there from my cost perspective. Or adding fuel to the fire. Could be both.

 

[Reduck]

While I think that only individuals can decide for themselves what levels of testing and automation are worth what price, and I'm not discounting the benefits of the Mindstream, your comparison made some marginal assumptions about what kits people will use and how often they will need to replace them.

Ammonia on an established tank? No. Not needed at all, IMO. Perhaps the Mindstream might provide some interesting data if it does the very low end well so it can be detected in a reef tank, but that remains to be seen.

Magnesium can probably be measured once a month and be more than enough. Possibly the same for potassium. Both change slowly, if at all.

pH via test kit? Not desirable, although a meter will also cost, but is more mobile and so can have other uses.

Salinity? Some of the devices we use are used in multiple locations (like new salt water as well as the tank; maybe even limewater potency). You cannot replace that need with the Mindstream.

Not to mention that until I put my absolute trust in this device, I'm still testing with ol reliable kits.
I trust my Apex for Ph and Salinity, but I still back that up with other calibrated devices.
Like you said, FSW, etc will still need to be tested remotely from the tank.
I don't see me ever pulling any device from the DT and running it into the mixing station.

So the cost will still be higher even if said trust is deemed bulletproof in the long term.
But my 2 cents on this is still the same. If this works as documented, its a game changer.

 

[MindStream]

Hi guys, Step Ahead Innovations here. Thank you for all the comments and conversation around the new MindStream monitoring system in this thread. We have been following along and have just created our own forum where we can answer all of your questions. If you'd like to engage directly with us, feel free to head over to our page at bit.ly/1F02qkD. Looking forward to connecting with each of you!

 

[evolved]

Hi guys, Step Ahead Innovations here. Thank you for all the comments and conversation around the new MindStream monitoring system in this thread. We have been following along and have just created our own forum where we can answer all of your questions. If you'd like to engage directly with us, feel free to head over to our page at bit.ly/1F02qkD. Looking forward to connecting with each of you!

If it helps, you are free to engage users in this thread too.

 

[watchguy123]

$500, 600, 700. A lot of money. But it doesn't really matter exactly what price it comes in at. Everyone will buy it if it works as advertised and I truly expect almost everyone will.

The hobby is made up of all sorts. Those with lots to spend and those on a tight budget. The bottom line for reef keeping: tanks thrive when parameters are stable and they flounder when not. This product makes the novice or expert aware of a large number of parameters.

Knowledge is power--right. With this product, a great deal of the critical reef keeping information becomes available and allows you to adjust so you can run stable parameters.

That's all, heck it is a mind blowing breakthrough.

 

[TheEngineer]

@watchguy123 I don't agree with your assessment and others have made similar arguments (yours just happens to be right here )

The argument that we spend money on pumps, skimmers, lights etc. is malformed. Those are fixed, onetime costs with expected lifespans that can be amortized across the lifetime of the device. Here there is a fixed startup cost, but then there is a recurring cost that extends for the usable life of the device (and beyond if the device breaks and you buy another). No one has asked how long this device can reasonably be expected to last, not that I've seen at least. We all know that everything that sits in our tanks takes a beating. How will a sensitive device fair?

There are 8 critical parameters to measure in a reef (source reefkeeping.com): calcium, alkalinity, salinity, temperature, pH, magnesium, phosphate and ammonia. Our own resident expert @Randy Holmes-Farley fairly discounts the value of ammonia, pH, salinity and magnesium (potassium as well, but that's not a critical parameter). That just leaves out CO2 and O2 which are also measured by the device. So now there are calcium, alkalinity and phosphate left of the original eight. Mindstream doesn't test for phosphates according to what I've seen. Now you are left with a $500-700 device with a never-ending recurring cost that measures two important parameters that you need to monitor and wouldn't need something else to measure anyway (temperature, pH and salinity).

Look, I'm not trying to knock what these guys are doing. Innovation in our hobby is needed and I applaud their efforts. This is a clear case of not getting input from your end users or understanding your market well enough. Everyone remember the Segway?

 

[evolved]

Okay, @Step Ahead Innovations, I went through the latter half of this thread and tried to (neutrally) pick all the question I do not believe have been addressed yet, or at least addressed to everyone's satisfaction. I've pulled them all together below with a comment on them; some as a matter of clarification of the question removed a bit from context.

If you could answer these questions here, that would be great. I do think it's fair for all FUTURE question to be redirected to Mindstream's forum (https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/mindstream.820/), apart from this thread.

1.) The mindstream alkalinity is going to blow however you test your alkalinity away, even pH titrations.
2.) The sensor disc accuracy will probably be plenty accurate (compared to hobby test kits) for a few months (some may degrade faster than others).
3.) Phosphate and nitrate are not easy to test, and no technology exists (that I'm aware of) to measure their fluorescence in seawater. All these other ones did exist. If you're waiting on those parameters, you should find a comfy chair and good book, cause it's gonna be a while.
4.) Shouldn't be unreasonable to expect the Apex and Mindstream to talk, as they are both cloud based. Now since I barely know what the cloud is, so someone else will now come along and tell me how wrong I am. But it could lead to Apex waiting on mindstream adopters and mindstream adopters waiting on Apex.

Care to comment on this summation?

Why do you have to pay more for Beta than a full up tested product?

That one is straight forward.

They are not doing the Kickstarter for capital....it's simply a very smart marketing pre-sell scheme. They already have financial backers. Don't need the cash.

This type of speculation/opinion has come up several times. However, right along side it (and perhaps the better question), is what happens if the Kickstarter goal is not met?

just post a video of mind stream working and take a test sample straight from the water and do a test with Hanna or something

This idea has also been frequent, and it ties back to the accuracy of the things we know. Ultimately, is there any plan to demonstrate Mindstream results alongside several other popular titration test kits (at least for the big 3 - Alk, Ca, Mg)?

launch of the product depends on raising $300k in Kickstarter

The same question as earlier stated differently; does the launch ultimately depend on the Kickstarter?

[you]would think that the sensitivities would age differently with the different parameters so if you are going to start testing at 30 days to see if the disk is still accurate, what do you test for? And wouldn't that force you to still do at least monthly testing with a titration kit?

If you don't know that the readings are accurate, what is the point? Are you supposed to wait until readings start to drop and then replace the disc? What if things are dropping for a completely different reason?

The disk life (and accuracy) is a big point of concern; anything you could share coupled with these questions in mind would be excellent.

Most of the concerns that people are voicing have to do with the ongoing cost of these discs.

And right alongside disk life, is disk cost. Have the cost estimations of such yet narrowed?

Additionally, what's to stop them from making the cloud-based service a paid service?

Is is a seemingly legitimate question. And while I [we] understand you can't ensure this could never happen, could you discuss this some?

What is it really going to cost to operate long term? What happens if the company website goes down? Any plans for a stand alone version so we do not have to rely on the company's cloud server always being there?

Straight forward again; anything you could offer would be appreciated here.

 

[MindStream]

Okay, @Step Ahead Innovations, I went through the latter half of this thread and tried to (neutrally) pick all the question I do not believe have been addressed yet, or at least addressed to everyone's satisfaction. I've pulled them all together below with a comment on them; some as a matter of clarification of the question removed a bit from context.

If you could answer these questions here, that would be great. I do think it's fair for all FUTURE question to be redirected to Mindstream's forum (https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/mindstream.820/), apart from this thread.


Care to comment on this summation?


That one is straight forward.


This type of speculation/opinion has come up several times. However, right along side it (and perhaps the better question), is what happens if the Kickstarter goal is not met?


This idea has also been frequent, and it ties back to the accuracy of the things we know. Ultimately, is there any plan to demonstrate Mindstream results alongside several other popular titration test kits (at least for the big 3 - Alk, Ca, Mg)?


The same question as earlier stated differently; does the launch ultimately depend on the Kickstarter?



The disk life (and accuracy) is a big point of concern; anything you could share coupled with these questions in mind would be excellent.


And right alongside disk life, is disk cost. Have the cost estimations of such yet narrowed?


Is is a seemingly legitimate question. And while I [we] understand you can't ensure this could never happen, could you discuss this some?


Straight forward again; anything you could offer would be appreciated here.

Thank you Evolved for pulling this together. It's really helpful and we appreciate you taking the time. Following are answers to some of the questions posed:

To Kaba regarding phosphate & nitrate: As far as we know, you are correct that a good method for measuring phosphate and nitrate in saltwater tanks in real time does not exist. We know these two are important parameters to maintaining a healthy tank. We have been investing in developing a Nitrate sensor and have achieved very promising results for a nitrate sensor for freshwater tanks. We believe an accurate nitrate sensor for saltwater tanks is technically feasible and it is a very high development priority for us. Regarding phosphate, it is an important development priority for us as well. However, we anticipate developing a phosphate sensor that does not use reagent technology will be especially complex and difficult to achieve.

To Kaba regarding Apex: We are currently devoting our development resources to getting our first MindStream monitor to market. The first version will not be integrated with other systems, including Apex controllers. We will certainly consider the merits of working with other aquarium tank system providers, including Neptune Systems, to provide integration down the road.

To RSaalman regarding Beta testing: Kickstarter beta testers will receive three months of replacement sensor discs to last the duration of the beta test period and have the benefit of receiving a pre-production MindStream monitor several months before the initial regular Kickstarter shipments. They will also have the benefit of receiving a new replacement MindStream monitor (for exchange) if meaningful changes are made to the monitor before product launch.

To Redfishbluefish regarding Kickstarter financing: Our Kickstarter campaign plays a very significant role in the development of both our product and our company. From a financial prospect it provides important capital beyond what we have raised from early investors and the expected proceeds are part of our operating budget to complete R&D/testing, purchase long lead time components, and build out manufacturing. It also is an important measure of the demand within this community for the MindStream monitor. We will bring the MindStream monitor to market regardless, and we are counting on a big Kickstarter success to avoid any delays in getting it to you.

To NicksMixedReef regarding comparison to traditional test methods: As you have seen in our Kickstarter campaign, we are doing extensive internal benchmark testing for all the parameters and have shared the results to date for pH with you. We also recently shared results from some of our oxygen testing on Facebook. We will continue with this important testing and will share additional results with you along the way. We are committed to releasing a product that at launch provides results that are at least as accurate as traditional test methods while providing the convenience and insight from real-time, networked, ongoing monitoring.

To DaveMorris regarding disc longevity: We are confident that upon product release disc sensor readings will be accurate for 30 days. We do believe technically, the fluorescent science is capable of performing beyond 30 days. However, there are numerous factors that affect the sensor disc longevity in your tank beyond just the fluorescence sensors. We have been testing and researching methods for extending the disc lifespan, however we don't have enough test data to be able to reliably guarantee accurate readings in the wide variety of possible tank configurations beyond 30 days. We have some solid hypothesis about how we will be able to extend disc life and will continue to research and develop these methods.

To DaveMorris and icecool2 regarding the price of the consumables and access to measurement data: We have been working on the economics of the monthly consumable and cloud access because we have heard how important it is to you. There are significant unknowns in our estimating - especially at what volumes we will be producing, the affordability of automated assembly equipment, and the scale of our cloud-based infrastructure. We've made a lot of progress and hope to be able to provide more clarity on the topic soon. It might be helpful to know that the sophisticated measurement capabilities of the MindStream monitor provide raw data that must then be interpreted and adjusted by algorithms in the cloud. Therefore, our cloud-based functionality is critical to the innovative and revolutionary aspects of the MindStream monitor.

 

[TheEngineer]

Thanks for taking the time to answer the individual questions. I'm still a bit skeptical of your comment about the data needing to "be interpreted and adjusted by algorithms in the cloud" With the power of today's microcontrollers even an Arduino can handle video processing and those are based on <$2 chips. Even if you needed to interpret every pixel of each pad (assuming you use an optical sensor with some appreciable pixel density) that can be handled on a microcontroller. I'd be interested to hear more about why you need cloud access and can't put it on the device directly.

 

[evolved]

Thank you Evolved for pulling this together.

No, thank you very much!
I will see you guys at MACNA!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would just add some discussion to this comment:

"1.) The mindstream alkalinity is going to blow however you test your alkalinity away, even pH titrations."

As expected (and confirmed to me), the Mindstream calculates carbonate alkalinity from pH, CO2, salinity, and temperature. Since it cannot measure borate alkalinity, if it is used to provide total alkalinity, it will have to estimate (guess) a typical borate alkalinity and add that to the calculated carbonate alkalinity. If that were the case (that is, if they choose to provide a value for total alkalinity), it certainly would not "blow away" a pH titration for total alkalinity. However, carbonate alkalinity is actually a bit more useful, IMO, than total alkalinity in monitoring a reef tank. It may just take some folks a little mental adjustment. That said, I do not know what the production unit error bars will be on carbonate alkalinity measurements, but I am not overly concerned about that.

However, I have become excited at some of the calculated parameters it may be able to provide based on the things it does measure that geeky folks might find very interesting. I don't want to say what they are since I do not know which of them will be included in the final device, but there are a variety of chemically-related parameters that can be calculated from the assortment of things the Mindstream measures (a simple one being bicarbonate concentration). These parameters might very well find a place in future ways of thinking abut the chemical parameters of reef aquaria. To date they have not been readily obtainable.

 

[MindStream]

Thanks for taking the time to answer the individual questions. I'm still a bit skeptical of your comment about the data needing to "be interpreted and adjusted by algorithms in the cloud" With the power of today's microcontrollers even an Arduino can handle video processing and those are based on <$2 chips. Even if you needed to interpret every pixel of each pad (assuming you use an optical sensor with some appreciable pixel density) that can be handled on a microcontroller. I'd be interested to hear more about why you need cloud access and can't put it on the device directly.

The MindStream monitor uses the Internet and individual tank cloud-based profiles in a number of ways. Besides the ability to continuously refine and update our algorithms, and optimize the interplay between various parameters (as Randy Holmes-Farley points out above), we also use the network to communicate critical alerts via email/text to tank owners when something looks wrong, provide ease of use and universal access on multiple tank owner devices (smartphone, iPad, desktop computer, etc.), track and store many months worth of parameter histories, and automatically "push" firmware updates to Monitors in the field. None of these things would be possible without the advanced networking capabilities of the MindStream monitor.

 

[TheEngineer]

Thanks again for your response. While I'm not going to be an early supporter of your product, I do hope you are successful at it.

If I might add one additional suggestion, I'd suggest you push enough basic functionality to the device itself and leave some of the "nice to haves" to the cloud so that it can stand on its own. You're likely to attract more buyers, in my opinion of course, if they have something they know will still work if your business doesn't. The risk of anyone being an early adopter is the risk of the product not working or a service folding. You can alleviate a lot of that risk by putting the most important functions on the device itself. Things like tweaks at the individual tank level, history, pushed updates are great, but if you aren't able to scale the people who own the device will still have some use out of it (for as long as they have discs).

 

[lexinverts]

.........The risk of anyone being an early adopter is the risk of the product not working or a service folding. You can alleviate a lot of that risk by putting the most important functions on the device itself. Things like tweaks at the individual tank level, history, pushed updates are great, but if you aren't able to scale the people who own the device will still have some use out of it (for as long as they have discs).

The point is moot, since, if they go under, the fluorescent disks will not be available and the device will not be functional anyway. The longevity of the support for the product is just a risk that early backers will have to take. If this thing works like it supposedly does, I can't imagine Step Ahead Innovations will be going anywhere soon.

 

[TheEngineer]

The point is far from moot. Users have the option of buying discs for the expected lifetime of the device. Let's call it 3 years. After 3 years the device is nonfunctional and you're out of discs. If they go under in 2 years you still have a year of useful life left.

You can't imagine they would go anywhere? Why? They're clearly undercapitalized and have yet to attract more than 200 people willing to put money on it. This my friend is the very definition of risk. Kickstarter is a really easy early litmus test for a new business. So far converting interest into sales is pretty poor.

They are taking on the noble goal of creating something new and we need more people like them. Don't for a second think that an idea and some positive comments on a forum are enough for this idea to become a sustained business.

 

[lexinverts]

The point is far from moot. Users have the option of buying discs for the expected lifetime of the device. Let's call it 3 years. After 3 years the device is nonfunctional and you're out of discs. If they go under in 2 years you still have a year of useful life left.

99 out of 100 users are not going to buy 3 years of disks in advance. Maybe you'd do that, but I don't think it would be wise given that they are calibrated in batches and things could easily change over 3 years so that they make improvements in their processes. I would want the latest disk in my device, not a 3-yr-old one. For 99 of 100 users, I think your point is moot, yes.

You can't imagine they would go anywhere? Why? They're clearly undercapitalized and have yet to attract more than 200 people willing to put money on it. This my friend is the very definition of risk. Kickstarter is a really easy early litmus test for a new business. So far converting interest into sales is pretty poor.

That's correct. They have stated themselves that they are bringing the product to market regardless. They need the Kickstarter "kick" to speed up the process.