More dead fish ....

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

Ok I'm baffled here... maybe someone can chime in, cause I'm stuck...

So I posted in the Clown/Nem forum, helped a friend set up a clowns tank... 11 Clowns mixed fancy and regular...
In a few weeks all were dead.
I thought it was a bully situation, last clown standing was alive for a week alone and then died herself.
No signs of sickness and she had chunks missing but most likely the CUC...

Anyway 1-2 weeks later, friend buys a yellow tang and a snowflake clown.
today, 1 week later... Tang and Clown both dead...
All week long they have been super healthy, swimming, eating, looking as happy as can be.
This morning on his way out he didnt top at the tank and look but he definitely glanced and could see the tang swimming around just as normal, he didnt see the clown but he didnt look so it could have been in its cave...

All sudden both dead, his wife reports they are dead and looking through camera you can see tang laying on the sand bed....

removed them and the tang still looks normal, no discoloration, no missing flesh, no spots, full of color.... and fat... so it wasn't starving or anything...
Clown was in the goby den and CUC looks like it was starting on it...

I have him check the water every other day and params look fine...

ammonia 0
nitrite .1
PH 8.0
Nitrate 5.0

Same params as when he acclimated them, 2 hour acclimation, floating with bag clipped to side and basting water in every 15 mins...

I'll post pic of tang in a bit, waiting for him to forward to me.

Anyone have any ideas? this has been an expensive trip for him to lose everyone 2 times...
Spotted Goby is perfectly fine... Nem is fine, Goni and Xenia all flourishing, Fire Shrimp x2 all fine... Sea urchin fine, Stars fine...

pgravis · Apr 10, 2015

That's a frustrating spot to be in. I went through a phase of losing fish for no reason and other fish doing fine. A couple thoughts (just throwing them out there, more like brainstorming than answering your question!). Check salinity with more than one device; maybe acclimating too long; hitch hiker, watch the tank at night with red flashlight; these new losses may be coincidental, and unrelated to why the initial clowns perished, how long were they at lfs, etc; any micro bubbles in tank? This was the only variable in my tank that seemed to change the outcome of new fish. When I had bubbles, I had very low success, when I solved the problem, new fish additions started doing better. Again, that may have been coincidental, new batch of fish, healthier fish. Are the fish being overly stressed when added? A bunch of faces pressed up against the tank will make it harder for the fish to settle in.
I hope you can solve this, losing fish sucks and it really takes the joy out of the hobby

haleyf1024 · Apr 10, 2015

Has there ever been chromis in either tank? If so maybe there is uronema in there? I only mention it because I lost 9 fish because of it, and none showed signs of illness. I only know about it since my last fish in that QT showed signs and I saved him

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

Forgot to post the Salinity he checks with a refractometer and shows 1.025 as should.
and the first round of fish lasted total about 3 weeks, little by little dying 1 or 2 at a time.

This time both tang and clown lasted a week. They looked great, I myself watch them while at work and especially the tang was constantly grazing and you can even see him after he died, nice and plump...

No chromis in the tank at any point. Its a 45 Cube and hes about to do a 15 gal new water change today and do more if he needs...

As far as stress.... faces on the glass.... he has 2 cats... and they are always on the stand staring it. But he assures me they cannot get in as it is covered. Plus the fish are always left in there...
you think the cat stalking can stress that much?

I mean with the first batch of clowns I know clowns can fight but again I never saw them fight... So unless they were going into rage at night I didnt want to believe it was them fighting either...

joekool · Apr 10, 2015

Sorry to here bud.

Has your friend had the LFS check his parameters and salinity. Also some refractometers don't calibrate the same. Mine is a brine unit so I have to use a solution. If I use ro then I'm off by 5 so he could be at 1.020 not 1.025 if he's not calibrating correctly. I'm going to by the Red Sea unit that is made for sea water not brine water for myself. Supposed to be more accurate.

I would double check the salinity at LFS. Also not huge but unless the tank is new you don't want to see any nitrite but some nitrate is fine but I would keep it under the point 0.9 or below. A deep sand bed in the sump will really help with nitrates but it's not an overnight change it takes time for it to work as a filter and has to be undisturbed always. At least a cube 6" deep of sand. But this is long term. It is not necessary to keep a nice tank just a nice feature for longevity.

I would lower nitrates for sure. Doing a 20% water change until it drops. Small water changes won't equal the same amount so larger at one time would help more but I would make sure salinity is spot on.

I would also wait to add anymore fish until parameters are nice and stable.

Ask me if I can offer more help. I don't know everything but willing to help with what I know.

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

Yeah i told him go to LFS and test his water with them, without telling them the fish he just got from them died... then tell them whats going on after he gets results.

joekool · Apr 10, 2015

Fish don't do well with nitrates or wrong salinity but can survive in lower salinity just depends. Let us know what he finds out

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

i will keep the post updated....

FYI my nitrates are nearly 60 and all my fish are perfectly fine...
It sky rocketed last week to 100 when i added 100 LBS dry rock and i did 2x 35 Gal water changes 3 days apart and got them down to 50-60... been a week that high going down with everything in tank looking fine....
2 angels, 2 Tangs, 4 Clowns, 2 Gobies, 1 Blenny, 6 Nems, plenty of coral... All fine... I am working on lowering but IMO nitrates dont have that much an affect.

In his case i wouldn't be shocked if his numbers are off, maybe salinity... We'll see...

Humblefish · Apr 10, 2015

Only ailment I know of that kills that fast is marine velvet disease. However, being this all began with a group of clownfish, Brooklynella is another possibility to consider. Typically, both have obvious visible physical symptoms. Lately however, I've been seeing fish with velvet (at Petco of course

) and some of their tankmates die without ever exhibiting symptoms.

hwell:

Only other things I can think of which can kill fish this fast is a contaminant getting into the water or exposure to ammonia.

Humblefish · Apr 10, 2015

Z06-Hec said:
FYI my nitrates are nearly 60 and all my fish are perfectly fine...

Your nitrate would have to be much higher than that before fish would be affected. Now corals are another story ...

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

Humblefish said:
Your nitrate would have to be much higher than that before fish would be affected. Now corals are another story ...

They are 60 now, they were 100, and thats the highest the test read... so possibly could have been higher. This is besides the point though I'm working on mine.... Wondering what could be wrong with his tank...
His Goby has survived all the deaths... But either way i told him no fish for at least 4 weeks... If there is an infection in there hopefully that is long enough.

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

Ok his params from Petco come to....
PH 8.4
Alk 180
Hardness 300
Nitrate good
Ammonia good
Nitrite good
Not sure what good means but thats how petco tested
he didnt give me a salt reading

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

I guess we determined this was a fish disease and moved it to the less traffic area?

Triggreef · Apr 10, 2015

If disease related you should see something for signs/symptoms. I'm thinking more like a water quality / cycle issue. you said you had nitrite which in much different than nitrate. Even when low it can cause ammonia to be extremely toxic to where either by itself won't effect much but together they are bad even low levels. depeending on the test, any error could be enough to explain the deaths. Make sure tank is well cycled before adding fish. keep feeding blindly, monitor levels and wait at least a few weeks before trying again, in case there was some parasite issue as well which is highly likely if they weren't quarantined.

jokervueboi · Apr 10, 2015

"So I posted in the Clown/Nem forum, helped a friend set up a clowns tank... 11 Clowns mixed fancy and regular...
In a few weeks all were dead. "

sorry but... was this set up cycled? I didn't see it in the initial post.

razorblaze827 · Apr 10, 2015

Does he clean the glass windex? I heard from a LFS owner his display tank at home crashed because his wife got windex in the tank.

Z06-Hec · Apr 10, 2015

for the cycled question, it was a new tank but he had a 29 cube which he transferred water and stock from, so it wasnt new-new tank.
Rock was old, water was used and sand was new, but even in that aspect before adding the initial 11 fish the tank had been up for at least 3 weeks.

Lynn52 · Apr 10, 2015

11 fish are a lot to add at one time to a smaller tank. The "old" rock may not be enough to keep up with the added bio load in the tank.

pgravis · Apr 10, 2015

Frustrating for sure. Best bet is probably letting it be for awhile as everyone has said. Maybe try and get a sample to an lfs that can give a better answer than "results were good"!