Moved from 12g to 40g with 15g sump. Week1 Alkalinity/Calcium issues

[dhof]

I need help again.

I had my Fluval 13.5 (about 12 actual gallons) pretty balanced on Alk/Cal dosing. The Fluval 13.5 was running for about 10 months, and pretty mature, but heavily stocked.

Then on 08/22, I moved the corals, rocks, and fish from the Fluval 13.5 to a 40g breeder (about 55 actual gallons with the sump).

1. The 40B has all new substrate (1/2 live ReefFlakes and 1/2 not live).
2. The 40B also has just a little more cured tonga rock as compared to what I moved from the Fluval 13.5 (about 40% of the rock came from the Fluval 13.5 and the other 60% is Tonga that I have been curing for 6 months or so in a Brute). Since 08/22, the Tonga rock does have some algae on it that I brush off pretty easily daily.
3. The 40B has the same AI Hydra above it as the Fluval, but it is about 4 inches higher, and the AI Hydra is hung with a 4 bulb 36" T5 fixture at the same height. Quite a bit more light than the other tank.
4. The 40B chemistry (Alk/Cal/Mag) was exactly the same when I moved everything as the Fluval was at the time of the move. Alk 11.5, Cal 450, Mag 1350.

In my naive mind, I figured that since all the corals were the same, that my Alk/Cal usage each day would be about the same (or at least it would be similar enough that the old dosage would be a good starting point).

Fluval 13.5:

1. Alk = 11.5 ; Using 6.5 mL of Red Sea Liquid alkalinity supplement each day
2. Cal = 450 ; Using 2.3 mL of Red Sea Liquid calcium supplement each day
3. (incidentally, Red Sea is one of those "NOT 1:1 ratio" supplements, so doing a bunch of calculations and work in another thread, I believe the above is actually proper ratio (comparable to 1:1 dosing of other brands), even though the mL is not equivalent)

40Breeder:

Regarding the above:

1. 08/22
   1. DOS Dosed 6.5 mL of Red Sea Alk; 2.3mL of Red Sea Calcium
      1. Alk=10.9 (prev day @ 11.5)
      2. Cal=431 (prev day @ 450)
   2. +Manual dose of 50mL BRS Bicarb and 19mL Red Sea Calcium
2. 08/23
   1. DOS Dosed 6.5 mL of Red Sea Alk; 2.3mL of Red Sea Calcium
      1. Alk=10
      2. Cal=442
   2. +Manual dose of 100mL BRS Bicarb and 8mL Red Sea Calcium
3. 08/24
   1. DOS Dosed 6.5 mL of Red Sea Alk; 2.3mL of Red Sea Calcium
      1. Alk=9.7
      2. Cal=(not recorded)
   2. +Manual dose of 100mL BRS Bicarb
4. 08/25
   1. DOS Dosed 8 mL of Red Sea Alk; 2.8mL of Red Calcium
      1. Alk=10.4
      2. Cal=427
   2. +Manual dose of 100mL BRS Bicarb and 19 mL of Red Sea Calcium
5. 08/26
   1. DOS Dosed 16 mL of Red Sea Alk; 11.3mL of Red Calcium
      1. Alk=9.8
      2. Cal=431
   2. +Manual dose of 75mL BRS Bicarb and 20 mL of Red Sea Calcium
6. 08/27
   1. DOS Dosed 16 mL of Red Sea Alk; 11.3mL of Red Calcium
      1. Alk=9.9
      2. Cal=432
   2. +Manual dose of 100mL BRS Bicarb and 18 mL of Red Sea Calcium
      1. Alk=11(post manual dosing)
7. 08/28
   1. DOS Dosed 29 mL of Red Sea Alk; 10mL of Red Calcium
      1. Alk=10
      2. Cal=461
   2. +Manual dose of 100mL BRS Bicarb and 18 mL of Red Sea Calcium
      1. Alk=11 (post manual dosing)
8. 08/29
   1. DOS Dosed 29 mL of Red Sea Alk; 10mL of Red Calcium
      1. Alk=
      2. Cal=441
   2. DID NOT MANUALLY DOSE ANYTHING
9. 08/30
   1. DOS Dosed 29 mL of Red Sea Alk; 10mL of Red Calcium
      1. Alk=
      2. Cal=444
   2. DID NOT MANUALLY DOSE ANYTHING

If you are still following along, I'm in this situation where I'm basically dosing more and more Alk/Cal but levels are dropping. This would lead me to believe I'm battling precipitation, but I honestly don't see any precipitation on my equipment.

Should I keep dosing more and more Alk/Cal to try to achieve my desired 11.5 and 450?

Is my Tonga rock maybe still degrading a bit and using more Alk than normal so I should just settle on a daily dose amount and manually supplement things each day after measuring?

Should I stop DOS dosing entirely for a day or two and manually adjust each day to see what the actual utilization is before figuring out a dosing strategy?

Appreciate any advice,

 

[OrionN]

I don't keep such a close eye on my Ca and Alkalinity. However, check your sand bed. Often, the precipitation is going to be in your sand bed and convert a sand bed to solid rock. Use a small stick poke into the sand bed and make sure the sand is still sand, not solid rock.

 

[Brew12]

Your corals could also be getting better light and flow improving growth. Are you seeing any change in growth of your coral?

 

[dhof]

Your corals could also be getting better light and flow improving growth. Are you seeing any change in growth of your coral?

Yeah, the corals are growing like bonkers in the new tank. I know it's only been a week, but I would say the coral growth is noticeable. I considered that maybe utilization might be higher, but it seems unlikely that it is this much higher. Still trying to figure things out.

 

[dhof]

I don't keep such a close eye on my Ca and Alkalinity. However, check your sand bed. Often, the precipitation is going to be in your sand bed and convert a sand bed to solid rock. Use a small stick poke into the sand bed and make sure the sand is still sand, not solid rock.

Good advice. I checked the substrate and the top of the substrate does seem to be a little 'crusted' together. I bet that is where the precipitation is going. Now on to research what to do to fix precipitation.

 

[Brew12]

Yeah, the corals are growing like bonkers in the new tank. I know it's only been a week, but I would say the coral growth is noticeable. I considered that maybe utilization might be higher, but it seems unlikely that it is this much higher. Still trying to figure things out.

I think it is reasonable if you are seeing much better SPS growth.

 

[OrionN]

I am glad you detect that. Break them up and don’t aim for level so high. Seed the sand bed to get living animals in there. They will keep the sand from solidifying (in addition from not having super saturated level of Ca and Carbonate)

 

[dhof]

Well, I broke up the 'crust' on the substrate, as suggested. I then thoroughly vacuumed the substrate, and did a 20% water change. I also stopped dosing anything for 24 hrs. In thinking back, I do remember getting the tank prepped for moving everything into it from my old tank, and the Alk was quite low, so I dosed quite a bit of alk in the 2 days prior to moving everything over, and that likely caused all the precipitation.

During the 24 hr "no dosing period", the PH dropped quite a bit to a more normal level for my tank (during precipitation it was something like 8.2 on peaks, and it now functions at 8.0). I took this as a sign that things were catching up from the precipitation.

I was using an Apex DDR dosing Red Sea Alk and Red Sea Calcium. The DDR always seems to get air bubbles in the tubing (I tried literally everything to get rid of them), and the Red Sea Calcium and Alkalinity give me tons of problems since they aren't truly 1:1 ratio (it's hard to track and calculate sustainable doses). The Red Sea Alk and Calcium also constantly precipitate in their jugs and also in the DDR itself, so basically I'm sick of heating it up and constantly mixing it all the time.

I put some BRS Soda Ash and BRS Calcium in Mr. Chilis Mixing jugs and I'll use the BRS stuff with the DOS. So far, the connections on the BRS bulkheads for the containers seem to be way higher quality than the DDR fittings. I've also had the BRS Soda Ash and Calcium made up for several months and there has been no settling or precipitation like the Red Sea liquid has.

It's been a few days now dosing the BRS Soda ash and Calcium, and I've been measuring before and after dosing. I'm at a point where I can calculate the dose needed and actually achieve the dose in measurement (previously I could not really ever hit a targeted dose due to the precipitation). I feel like I have my daily dosing already figured out, and should be fine-tune it in again in a week.

Thanks for all your suggestions and help.

 

[dhof]

So now it's been over a month. In my Fluval I had Alk/Cal balanced perfectly. Ever since I moved to this 40Breeder, I'm still having difficulty maintaining Alk/Cal.

Previously, I ran my Fluval at 11.0dkh, 450ppm Cal, and 1350. When I moved to the 40breeder, I thought I would try to do the same. You can see above how much trouble I had in the first week, and per the responses, I suspected I had precipitation occurring in this 40B, so I dropped my targets to:

1. Target dkh = 9.0
2. Target ppm Cal = 425
3. Target Magnesium = 1350

My total system water volume is 55 gal (tank+sump)

I'm currently dosing the following via dosing pump each day

1. 56.6mL of BRS Soda Ash
2. 56.6mL of BRS Calcium Chloride

I have no precipitation occurring, to the best of my knowledge.

1. There is no white crust anywhere on the waterlines, not in my tank, not in my sump, not anywhere
2. I have a primary heater, and a backup heater. They are as clean as the day I put them in over a month ago.
3. I took out my COR-15 today, and there isn't any hint of calcium carbonate on it. I took it apart and cleaned it, and it was essentially just like new.
4. I have a Sicce 0.5 stirring the water where the dosing tubes drop Alk/Cal into the sump. Took that apart today and it is as clean as can be.
5. Every couple of days, I reach in to check the substrate, and I don't have any crusting going on in my substrate.
6. Almost every day I blow water jets on my new rocks with a turkey baster. There is occasionally a very slight 'dust' that blows off, but I would say it is pretty minimal. Hard to distinguish if it is actual 'dust' or if it is a bunch of air bubbles from the algae.

Now, I calculate that my current daily dose of 56.6 is 1.03 mL per gallon. According to BRS, that would be an appropriate dosing rate for a Moderate-to-Heavy demand tank. My corals are doing fantastic, and grow like crazy. The old rock has almost no coralline algae. The new rock has hundreds of small dots of coralline, and the sump has a spattering of coralline on the glass. I would say I have a "Moderate" or "Moderate to low" demand tank. Here's a few pics:



I test everything every day since I moved to the 40 Breeder. Currently at 56.6mL, the tank still drops about .3 dkh and about 4ppm calcium in 24 hrs. I dropped my daily dose to 24.8ml (which is exactly what the fluval was using) and Alk dropped about 1.4dkh per day. I've left my daily dose at 24.8mL for several days, and then moved it to 31.5mL for several days, then moved it 37.5mL for several days then to 41mL for several days, and finally 56.6 (which is today, and has been for a week).

By my calculations, I need to increase to 65 or 70mL of BRS soda ash per day, just to maintain a dkh of 9!! That seems crazy to me, as it would put me in what BRS considers "heavy demand", which I don't actually perceive is the case. I did add T5 lights to my tank when I moved to the 40Breeder, and the corals are growing pretty huge over the past month.

Any and ALL advice is appreciated. I'm stuck and really need some help. Is dosing 70mL of BRS SodaAsh and 70mL of BRS Calcium each day crazy for a 40 breeder?

Thanks,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are dosing about 1.4 dKH per day. Seems reasonable to me and unless you detect a problem other than concerns about the volume dosed, I would not look for a problem.

 

[dhof]

You are dosing about 1.4 dKH per day. Seems reasonable to me and unless you detect a problem other than concerns about the volume dosed, I would not look for a problem.

That's a refreshing perspective, thanks Randy. I see that I am 1.4dkh per day when I dose 56mL of BRS Soda Ash. Maybe I should focus on the consumption in terms of dkh and ppm rather than volume like the BRS video states. I like the idea of focusing on consumption a heck of a lot better, but I don't really know any reference points for consumption.

Is there any sort of recommendations in a table? Like 0.50dkh per day for low coral load, 1.4 for moderate load, and 2.0 for high load? Or something like that? If there were such a thing, I could at least tell when I'm dosing crazy amounts as I try to get this fixed...

I'm thinking of upping my daily dose to 70mL, which woudl be 1.8dkh per day. Does that seem like a reasonable amount still for a low-moderate demand tank?

 

[dhof]

So I moved to dosing just over 1.8dkh per day of Soda Ash, and Alk/Cal still seemed to need more. At 71mL of BRS soda Ash per day (55gal total volume), I still had to supplement a 0.5 to 0.7 dkh per day loss. I'm sure there is precipitation occurring, but I have no idea where. I cleaned the heck out of my sump and I really don't see anything white/hard/crust anywhere.

Yesterday, I noted an article somewhere else on this board where the suggestion was to switch to Sodium Bicarbonate for a while. I did switch yesterday to BRS Bicarbonate in my doser (doubled the amount dosed compared to soda ash). I only lost 0.1dkh over 24 hrs, which is promising!!! I'll keep monitoring daily to if this helps solve things. My hope is that I can get it to stabilize with bicarbonate and then eventually move back to soda ash down the line. My PH is way higher (8.3) in this basement than it was in my tank upstairs (8.0) (I know this makes no sense..), so I don't think I'll run into any harm using bicarb for a while.

 

[dhof]

Anecdotally, the switch to Sodium Bicarb from Soda Ash several days ago completely solved my problem. Alk and Calcium have been stable as a rock for about 6 straight days now since the switch. PH doesn't really seem to be affected at all.

I'm sure there is some sort of science at play, but I don't understand it. I just know that things are stable again and I'm happy!

 

[dhof]

Well, that success lasted a month.

10/20/18 to 11/21/18 - Dosed 152 mL BRS Sodium Bicarb and 76 mL BRS Calcium. Perfectly stable at 10dkh and 435ppm. Never fluctuated and I didn't dose anything beyond the daily dose. Finally achieved stability and stopped precipitation

11/21/18 to present (12/11/2018). I'm losing about 0.4-0.6 dkh and associated calcium every day. About the same time of 11/21, I started running some GFO in a reactor, which has been pulled out about a week ago, so everything is the same now as when I had a month of stability.

I'm obviously having precipitation. Cleaned my pumps, heaters, and sump this past weekend. substrate is not crusty. But precipitation is going on somewhere I suppose.

Suggestions? How the heck should I proceed to address this? Drop my daily dosing amount and wait for it to settle again?

 

[Brew12]

Well, that success lasted a month.

10/20/18 to 11/21/18 - Dosed 152 mL BRS Sodium Bicarb and 76 mL BRS Calcium. Perfectly stable at 10dkh and 435ppm. Never fluctuated and I didn't dose anything beyond the daily dose. Finally achieved stability and stopped precipitation

11/21/18 to present (12/11/2018). I'm losing about 0.4-0.6 dkh and associated calcium every day. About the same time of 11/21, I started running some GFO in a reactor, which has been pulled out about a week ago, so everything is the same now as when I had a month of stability.

I'm obviously having precipitation. Cleaned my pumps, heaters, and sump this past weekend. substrate is not crusty. But precipitation is going on somewhere I suppose.

Suggestions? How the heck should I proceed to address this? Drop my daily dosing amount and wait for it to settle again?

What is your magnesium?

 

[dhof]

What is your magnesium?

Mag is running 1360 or 1380. I’m doing 20% water changes every week. I haven’t added mag in months, as I must be getting it from the water changes. Can’t really get it lower than 1360. Using Red Sea coral pro salt. Red Sea test kit.

I dose 4.4ml of each Red Sea reef energy a and b daily

I dose 0.68 ml of each Red Sea trace colors a b c d daily

Nitrate runs 1.5 but I have to dose sodium nitrate every day to keep it there. I have a ton of Cheeto in the Refugium which really doesn’t seem to be growing much at all. Red Sea nitrate pro test kit

Phosphate is running 0.03 to 0.05 pretty consistently. Hanna ulr test kit

I have been dosing vibrant weekly for a few months and started 2x per week recently.

Only notable thing is that the sodium bicarbonate tube I dose from has crystallized material on the edge/outside of the tubing every day. I assume from evaporation. The soda ash never had that.

I’ve almost never had this tank balance since moving to the 40 breeder. In my Fluval 12.5 I had it rock solid. This tank had all new substrate which is caribsea reef flakes.

I’m pretty frustrated so I appreciate any and all ideas on how to stop this precipitation and get the tank running without so much effort.

My corals and fish both are happy as can be and growing like crazy. It’s just the owner that is a mess.

 

[Brew12]

Mag is running 1360 or 1380. I’m doing 20% water changes every week. I haven’t added mag in months, as I must be getting it from the water changes. Can’t really get it lower than 1360. Using Red Sea coral pro salt. Red Sea test kit.

Magnesium helps prevent precipitation so I was worried about it being low. It should be fine where it is at.

If you don't dose for a day, what happens to your alkalinity?

 

[dhof]

Magnesium helps prevent precipitation so I was worried about it being low. It should be fine where it is at.

If you don't dose for a day, what happens to your alkalinity?

I can try turning off dosing for a day but for clarification: turn off dosing alk and calcium? Or turn off alk only?

 

[Brew12]

I can try turning off dosing for a day but for clarification: turn off dosing alk and calcium? Or turn off alk only?

I would turn them both off for a day. Knowing your actual demand will help give you the info you need to figure out how much you "should" be dosing.

 

[dhof]

I would turn them both off for a day. Knowing your actual demand will help give you the info you need to figure out how much you "should" be dosing.

Okay, so last night I turned off Alkalinity and Calcium dosing for exactly 24 hrs:

1. PRIOR to turning off dosing for 24 hrs:
   1. Alk=9.0 dkh
   2. Cal= 443 ppm
2. AFTER 24 hrs of no dosing:
   1. Alk=7.3 dkh
   2. Cal= 432 ppm
3. NET Difference from 24 hr no dosing experience:
   1. Alk = -1.7 dkh
   2. Cal = -11 ppm

Thankfully, my corals look fine, despite the drop being over 1.4dkh. I better turn the dosing back on tonight though.

I have a medium stocked tank, but things are growing like nuts and coralline just really exploded in the past 2 months.

If I were to use the observed decrease in 24 hrs per day above, I would decrease my dosing from 76 mL per day to 66.7mL. I'm assuming some of the -1.7dkh might still be some residual precipitation, so I think I'll set it to dose 60mL/day and assess if it is stable after that. Does this logic check out?