My Royal Gramma is dying, what did i do wrong?

[SlothMartin]

My tank is only 2 months old, and i am sure i was going too fast, but everything was going so well maybe i got ahead of myself.

135g total volume, cycled ammonia after a week, nitrite after 2 more, gave it another week to be sure. Got 2 clowns and a shrimp 2 weeks ago, eating and doing great. 10 coral frags.
over the last 4 days added a small yellow tang, firefish, royal gramma and 2 banggai cardinals.

Everyone was doing amazing, fish and coral. But the gramma hid right away. He was our favorite and we would be so happy when he would come out from a rock, but soon dart back. Today i noticed his tail looked a little ragged. wasnt sure if it was aggression, or they have short tails. Then i saw him on the other side of the tank where he doesnt normally hide, and the tang took a nip at him and he fell over. he is currently alive but obviously dying.

so number one i am bummed because i was in charge of his well being, of course. But number 2 i am worried for the rest of the fish, and 3 i do want a RG but dont want to hurt another one.

Any ideas what could be the problem? was this fish likely sick when it got to the tank, did i mess up acclimation, is it possible the tang was aggressive?

specs:
115g display, 135g total 4ft.
temp 78
salinity 1026 (store was 1022. half hour temp acc. half hour drip acc.)
ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5.7
phos 0.07, alk 7.3, calc 390, mag 1470

let me know if i missed any tests

rest of the tank: all coral are thriving, puffing up big during the day
fish are happy, active, everyone is eating. just starting to recognize when i am about to feed them and run up to get food (except the gramma)
everyone looks fat, no sign of skin disease, no tattered fins except the gramma. they are getting more comfortable by the day and starting to hang out in the front of the tank

filtration
- reefmat
- small chaeto refugium
- some temp filter floss just to catch sand and stuff from when i first set up the tank
- will add skimmer when bio load increases

feeding: quarter of a small cube of mysis (the kind that comes with like a dozen cubes per sheet)
occasional flakes. one sheet or nori every 2 days for the tang, and 2 sinking vegi tabs. (but he seems to eat mysis too)

stocking list
2 young clowns. she is about an inch, he is less than that
2 banggai cardinals
firefish
young yellow tang
coral banded shrimp (have never seen him mess with any fish)

no real CUC because i started pretty sterile with dry rock, dosed bacteria and ammonia etc, will add when i see algae.

i have a picture of him now but honestly its just depressing not sure what sharing it would do.

thanks for any advice you guys can give. And edit, by this time he is now gone. I cant reach him he is under a rock and the rest are picking at him. sad face.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My tank is only 2 months old, and i am sure i was going too fast, but everything was going so well maybe i got ahead of myself.

135g total volume, cycled ammonia after a week, nitrite after 2 more, gave it another week to be sure. Got 2 clowns and a shrimp 2 weeks ago, eating and doing great. 10 coral frags.
over the last 4 days added a small yellow tang, firefish, royal gramma and 2 banggai cardinals.

Everyone was doing amazing, fish and coral. But the gramma hid right away. He was our favorite and we would be so happy when he would come out from a rock, but soon dart back. Today i noticed his tail looked a little ragged. wasnt sure if it was aggression, or they have short tails. Then i saw him on the other side of the tank where he doesnt normally hide, and the tang took a nip at him and he fell over. he is currently alive but obviously dying.

so number one i am bummed because i was in charge of his well being, of course. But number 2 i am worried for the rest of the fish, and 3 i do want a RG but dont want to hurt another one.

Any ideas what could be the problem? was this fish likely sick when it got to the tank, did i mess up acclimation, is it possible the tang was aggressive?

specs:
115g display, 135g total 4ft.
temp 78
salinity 1026 (store was 1022. half hour temp acc. half hour drip acc.)
ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5.7
phos 0.07, alk 7.3, calc 390, mag 1470

let me know if i missed any tests

rest of the tank: all coral are thriving, puffing up big during the day
fish are happy, active, everyone is eating. just starting to recognize when i am about to feed them and run up to get food (except the gramma)
everyone looks fat, no sign of skin disease, no tattered fins except the gramma. they are getting more comfortable by the day and starting to hang out in the front of the tank

filtration
- reefmat
- small chaeto refugium
- some temp filter floss just to catch sand and stuff from when i first set up the tank
- will add skimmer when bio load increases

feeding: quarter of a small cube of mysis (the kind that comes with like a dozen cubes per sheet)
occasional flakes. one sheet or nori every 2 days for the tang, and 2 sinking vegi tabs. (but he seems to eat mysis too)

stocking list
2 young clowns. she is about an inch, he is less than that
2 banggai cardinals
firefish
young yellow tang
coral banded shrimp (have never seen him mess with any fish)

no real CUC because i started pretty sterile with dry rock, dosed bacteria and ammonia etc, will add when i see algae.

i have a picture of him now but honestly its just depressing not sure what sharing it would do.

thanks for any advice you guys can give. And edit, by this time he is now gone. I cant reach him he is under a rock and the rest are picking at him. sad face.

Its hard to say without seeing pics and a little more history but I see stocking too soon and too fast and would hold off with any more additions and allow tank to mature further as a sudden bio-load has been created with possible spikes in ammonia.

 

[christinna77]

To me, it sounds like the gramma got really bullied by something. Possibly the tang?

 

[winxp_man]

Have a black cap basslet I gave to my brother. He hid a lot during his first time in QT. Then as time went on, he got used to his surroundings. Then started coming out to swim more and feed. They are shy fish from what I see and will hide till they get used to the tank. Funny part, he also goes back into hiding if new fish are also introduced that are a bit too large for him to feel safe.

Can it also be disease for sure. But without pictures under bright white lights, and maybe a video under same lights hard to say. Get something posted and help can possibly be suggested.

How is it’s breathing? And do you QT fish? Or just drop them in the tank?

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

It sounds like aggression. How is the rockwork in your tank, RG's like to hide in tight spaces, is the rockwork providing hiding spots to the fish?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Im not sure how assessments are being made without pictures for confirmation

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

My tank is only 2 months old, and i am sure i was going too fast, but everything was going so well maybe i got ahead of myself.

135g total volume, cycled ammonia after a week, nitrite after 2 more, gave it another week to be sure. Got 2 clowns and a shrimp 2 weeks ago, eating and doing great. 10 coral frags.
over the last 4 days added a small yellow tang, firefish, royal gramma and 2 banggai cardinals.

Everyone was doing amazing, fish and coral. But the gramma hid right away. He was our favorite and we would be so happy when he would come out from a rock, but soon dart back. Today i noticed his tail looked a little ragged. wasnt sure if it was aggression, or they have short tails. Then i saw him on the other side of the tank where he doesnt normally hide, and the tang took a nip at him and he fell over. he is currently alive but obviously dying.

so number one i am bummed because i was in charge of his well being, of course. But number 2 i am worried for the rest of the fish, and 3 i do want a RG but dont want to hurt another one.

Any ideas what could be the problem? was this fish likely sick when it got to the tank, did i mess up acclimation, is it possible the tang was aggressive?

specs:
115g display, 135g total 4ft.
temp 78
salinity 1026 (store was 1022. half hour temp acc. half hour drip acc.)
ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5.7
phos 0.07, alk 7.3, calc 390, mag 1470

let me know if i missed any tests

rest of the tank: all coral are thriving, puffing up big during the day
fish are happy, active, everyone is eating. just starting to recognize when i am about to feed them and run up to get food (except the gramma)
everyone looks fat, no sign of skin disease, no tattered fins except the gramma. they are getting more comfortable by the day and starting to hang out in the front of the tank

filtration
- reefmat
- small chaeto refugium
- some temp filter floss just to catch sand and stuff from when i first set up the tank
- will add skimmer when bio load increases

feeding: quarter of a small cube of mysis (the kind that comes with like a dozen cubes per sheet)
occasional flakes. one sheet or nori every 2 days for the tang, and 2 sinking vegi tabs. (but he seems to eat mysis too)

stocking list
2 young clowns. she is about an inch, he is less than that
2 banggai cardinals
firefish
young yellow tang
coral banded shrimp (have never seen him mess with any fish)

no real CUC because i started pretty sterile with dry rock, dosed bacteria and ammonia etc, will add when i see algae.

i have a picture of him now but honestly its just depressing not sure what sharing it would do.

thanks for any advice you guys can give. And edit, by this time he is now gone. I cant reach him he is under a rock and the rest are picking at him. sad face.

It does sound like aggression. However, that’s a lot of fish and coral for a new tank. I wouldn’t add anything else except CUC for algae control.

 

[SlothMartin]

Hi, i apologize for the lack of pictures i thought this failed to post last night and was rewriting it.
I note that this morning when i got him out, his mouth is open. the other RG thread said possibly oxygen problem.
Flow is Jebao 10000 at 30% with 2 outputs. 2 DMP40 at 30% random flow. i aimed the outputs at the top of the water to create more agitation, but everyone else seems OK.

the white spots on him are sand, i dont notice anything that looks like ich or velvet to my amateur eye.

As to QT, i did not. My (risky i know) plan was to initially stock when there was little at risk in the tank and buy QT fish for further stocking, which i did not plan to add any more fish for 3-6 months, this was supposed to be the starting crew. I know i rushed, my fault, hard lesson learned.

the tank picture has the lights off because i was trying to reduce stress. I know it looks very sterile but numbers appear OK to me

thanks again for all of the feedback

 

[W31Olds]

Grammas are very prone to Flukes. They also need hiding spaces and can fit into really small openings.
Assuming your Tank is cycled, I would feed more Mysis than 1/4 Cube. At least 1/2 cube. A heathy Gramma can hold it's own and should be out swimming about 80% of the time.

 

[SlothMartin]

Grammas are very prone to Flukes. They also need hiding spaces and can fit into really small openings.
Assuming your Tank is cycled, I would feed more Mysis than 1/4 Cube. At least 1/2 cube. A heathy Gramma can hold it's own and should be out swimming about 80% of the time.

Hi sorry i made a typo in the original post. it is a quarter of a cube twice per day, morning and night. I started to increase that a little maybe a half of a cube once and quarter cube once per day

This guy never freely swam about in the 2 days he survived unfortunately. i think he had plenty of hiding places in the rockwork

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi, i apologize for the lack of pictures i thought this failed to post last night and was rewriting it.
I note that this morning when i got him out, his mouth is open. the other RG thread said possibly oxygen problem.
Flow is Jebao 10000 at 30% with 2 outputs. 2 DMP40 at 30% random flow. i aimed the outputs at the top of the water to create more agitation, but everyone else seems OK.

the white spots on him are sand, i dont notice anything that looks like ich or velvet to my amateur eye.

As to QT, i did not. My (risky i know) plan was to initially stock when there was little at risk in the tank and buy QT fish for further stocking, which i did not plan to add any more fish for 3-6 months, this was supposed to be the starting crew. I know i rushed, my fault, hard lesson learned.

the tank picture has the lights off because i was trying to reduce stress. I know it looks very sterile but numbers appear OK to me

thanks again for all of the feedback

With mouth open may be low dissolved oxygen

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi, i apologize for the lack of pictures i thought this failed to post last night and was rewriting it.
I note that this morning when i got him out, his mouth is open. the other RG thread said possibly oxygen problem.
Flow is Jebao 10000 at 30% with 2 outputs. 2 DMP40 at 30% random flow. i aimed the outputs at the top of the water to create more agitation, but everyone else seems OK.

the white spots on him are sand, i dont notice anything that looks like ich or velvet to my amateur eye.

As to QT, i did not. My (risky i know) plan was to initially stock when there was little at risk in the tank and buy QT fish for further stocking, which i did not plan to add any more fish for 3-6 months, this was supposed to be the starting crew. I know i rushed, my fault, hard lesson learned.

the tank picture has the lights off because i was trying to reduce stress. I know it looks very sterile but numbers appear OK to me

thanks again for all of the feedback

The open mouth in death is a sign some fish show due to oxygen deprivation OR high carbon dioxide. However, that does not always mean that the water itself is low in oxygen - gill flukes and other gill diseases impair oxygen uptake.

 

[SlothMartin]

With mouth open may be low dissolved oxygen

I turned the return pipes upward so the water stream breaks the surface. the DMP40s are not aimable, but i could move them up closer to the surface. i had read to put them 6-8 inches from the water surface, i have them offset, one at 5 inches from the surface of the water to the middle of the wavemaker, the other (on the other side) 8 inches.
do you recommend i do anything differently?

 

[SlothMartin]

The open mouth in death is a sign some fish show due to oxygen deprivation OR high carbon dioxide. However, that does not always mean that the water itself is low in oxygen - gill flukes and other gill diseases impair oxygen uptake.

I have since read that royal gramma may be susceptible to flukes. Thats on me for not researching that ahead of time and taking steps.
do you think that if thats the case it could affect the other inhabitants of the tank?

 

[winxp_man]

I turned the return pipes upward so the water stream breaks the surface. the DMP40s are not aimable, but i could move them up closer to the surface. i had read to put them 6-8 inches from the water surface, i have them offset, one at 5 inches from the surface of the water to the middle of the wavemaker, the other (on the other side) 8 inches.
do you recommend i do anything differently?

I have two about 3-4nches from the surface. But only run them at 25% tidal swell and they push good amount of flow at the surface.

I like skimmers right off the start irrelevant of bio load. Dust from the space around the tank, and other things that need to get skimmed out. But the biggest plus side is o2 generation by a skimmer. There is no need to set it to skim if not needed. You can set it to just cycle water. Also, if can take a few days for week to get a skimmer to skim if it’s new. So this helps break in the skimmer and produce biofilm on it.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have since read that royal gramma may be susceptible to flukes. Thats on me for not researching that ahead of time and taking steps.
do you think that if thats the case it could affect the other inhabitants of the tank?

It could - watch for elevated breathing rate and scratching of their heads against the substrate or other hard surfaces.

 

[SlothMartin]

appreciate all the help everyone. skimmer arrives tomorrow, and will watch our for sign of flukes, but right now everyone doing well. checked parameters again today and everything looks close to last weeks tests

 

[SlothMartin]

just stumbled across my old thread and wanted to update for posterity.

No other fish showed any distress signs, and 6 weeks later everyone doing great. however my firefish now hides 95% of the time, seems very afraid when the yellow tang comes by so maybe it really was aggression. (which makes me nervous to introduce future fish) although i have seen the tang go up to him curiously, but never swipe or dart at him

I added more rock for more secure hiding places.
also i cant believe how clean the tank looked less than 2 months ago! no white rock to be seen anymore

 

[W31Olds]

My Firefish spends about 1/2 to 1 hour out of his Cave every day and usually comes out when he smells food. I've had him close to 2 years. He is very skidish, and usually shoots back into his cave when the giants swim by. My large fish could care less about him. I'd like to see him more as he is very attractive and in perfect condition.

 

[SlothMartin]

hey thanks so much for the confirmation of the firefish. he was one of our first and was out a lot more, but is obv scared of the tang. but good to know its normal and *maybe* the tang is not terrorizing him