" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "

[Lasse]

When you mention a slow conversion to monoculture

How can that be tested or replicated in a system that won’t take twenty years to demo?

Using only large systems as the inference model imo allows for too many attribution errors to outcomes

Everything but small reefing has opinions varying on causality of invasion, unstoppable eutrophication etc (and they never agree sandbed waste is it)

We are usually extrapolating the maturation process for old large systems in the theory portion of these pages, can you make a nano reef reflect that process somehow and will others see the same issues on the same timeline? We can show those processes in the smaller reef relating to, and being arrested by, solely the management of cloud in the system


My system still has pods and worms in the sand after rinsing, they are re seeded by the live rock over time but not as dense as the unrinsed bed. I must surmise no bacterial issues are caused by me simulating tidal flushing actions due to the age of the micro systems and the repeatability by others, I’m able to get more than a hundred systems from others on live feedback showing very streamlined maturation check points, all predictable


If your counter model for aging is repeatable it should be able to be predicted, and modeled, by many and if we use smaller systems it won’t take so long to know does that sound reasonable? You should be able to create the stratification or location of your test system sandbed in the smaller systems, downscale the bioloading to match, and be able to intercept any form of invasion or noncompliance ahead of time, without factoring in the sand since the goal here will be to foster diversity vs guide out diversity and keep only the adapted residents who aren’t affected by tidal action. * imo the test isn’t validated but you pulling it off, it’s validated when twenty others get the same result and you collect those all in one thread for pattern trending

There are members of flora and fauna who can’t be ejected by tidal action...someone always hangs on for sure, rinsing isn’t as thorough as it’s made out to be/my claim

I always like when you post bc nobody else has worked in aquaculture that I know here. You and I once discussed backflushing of large filters to get at detritus, how that’s required in production since bioloading outpaces natural means of balance in high production pools etc...I consider my sand rinse technique and what I advise others to do so we can get ahold of their invasions just another means of backflushing...detritus/POM excellent description. The way most people stock fish in a reef tank makes it more like production aquaculture vs natural models

Stick stirring is not flushing agreed it’s relocation and only partial export (whatever gets caught in filter socks due to the exchange) but at least it is not a compound storage action...the smaller actual export portion is still a net loss in overall density of POM/det ideally. it prevents stratification aging in the sandbed by keeping the detritus aerated, like in Paul’s RUGF approach, which is much safer mulm than mulm spending its time in anaerobic or totally anoxic conditions where metabolites from protein rot are usually lethal vs foodstuff when cast back up before reduction in that mode was complete (takes much longer to mineralize in restricted 02 zones)

Berlin method allows for no such action and pure storage, and only biological mineralization/cacheting the waste into the right zones, hopefully

I don’t consider hand guided tanks sterile, they’re just visually cloudless and therefore not as crash-prone or invasion-prone biologically. Anyone one of the entrants into this thread can be sandbed less, nothing to stir, and they’ll still see everyday compounding the very waste that would have been out of sight out of mind (right up till invasion time) and they’ll still be able to farm all the corals and pods we all like, microflora w be in adjusted rations over time related to real estate changes made but I never viewed the pop shifts as sterility, merely selecting for only the bare essential reef guiders and not the rest of the cloud (reduced heterogeneity agreed)

Mike Palettas article on OTS used key terms about pore plugging and detritus, not any mention of monoculturing, if there is an alternate biosystem undescribed that accounts for senescence of the overall reef system then we should be able to model that with the general public for new feedback and articleworks

A water drop from your reef looks still like mine under the scope.

We should not discuss the total removing of detritus in this thread because it is a thread about stirring the sand to make bacteria or particular organic matter available for filter feeders. There is a special thread about detritus and if it is positive or negative for a reef aquaria. Let us take that discussion in that thread.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Ok ill check there let me know what you think about test modeling, will do

 

[Lasse]

The way you write it is difficult to understand and seems gimmerish. The words themselves I completely understand, its the way you use the words that is so odd.

@brandon429 Land Shark just nailed my feelings when I am reading some of your post´s. I thought it was because I´m not a native English speaker that I did not understand. For me it many times like a reefing version of Procol Harum´s A whiter shade of Pale - One of the best song´s ever - but what´s is the meaning of the words .

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Your wording and terminology was not an easy task as well, monoculture I had asked for clarification, why that wasn’t mentioned in Palettas article, but I’m able to pick up your meaning anyway for the purposes of discussion since I’m not trying to debate writers craft here


If you want clarification then post a snippet here and I will. All I wanted for clarification on your side was some repeatable testing and not a single source for the claims made (however I take your work with aquaculture to factor, I know you have works that are not linked, it’s appreciated when you post a challenge as I interpret them as sincere and definitely contributing to our evolution)

You seemed to position a fully opposite means of OTS cause and remediation, I had asked to see how you can model and repeat it using a larger data set. Below is a reminder of a time where your writing made it hard for me to follow your point

looks like when we’re passionate, we get a little complex

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-are-the-root-causes-of-cyano.338028/page-2


I quit following after page 5 as no actual cyano tanks were fixed and the ecological science writing made it seem like nobody had a language barrier and everybody knew the cure and cause...it was just never actually demonstrated (a pattern I see in web debates)

It was hard for me to relate the biochemistry you were typing there to any method of curing cyano challenges, as no cures were ran or collected.

If someone is posting about cyano I want to see cyano work across tanks to tie in the chemistry typing to a real world outcome.


If someone is posting about OTS I want to see old tanks fixed, or new tanks designed in a way that prevents OTS from manifesting, not just types about your own reef, that’s what I mean by work links and that’s why the sand rinse thread is twelve pages.

a stick stirrer could have showed up and made impactful change in you guys’ cyano thread without any fancy descriptions. Then the thread would’ve had a single works example.

 

[Lasse]

?????

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

you stated theory about cyano causes for pages but never applied your rationale in a single cyano challenge tank for proof (fix a cyano challenge tank using your method, fix ten of them even better)




I don’t know what your method is after reading the example thread and it’s ten pages. I could not gain from the example thread what causes cyano, because nobody bothered to actually work with any cyano to bring it about then suppress it.


You state here a well written challenge to the position of OTS cause and cure...you claimed something opposite from Mike Palettas article on OTS

again I haven’t seen your alternate take on OTS applied and tested in others tanks, and the fact you are working with a reef of significant dilution and volume means I think you’ll have a hard time curing cyano or preventing OTS in any system that doesn’t provide dilution.

There is however a neat way to change my mind, however.


If you want to communicate better with me, do it in work links where we don’t have to read each other’s descriptions. This is an example of work links below, not theory type. 99% of the thread is other people testing my claims. We make a prediction, we follow through, and the results are logged.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Blusops thread here is a fine example of a works link, his statments are being vetted by others


I don’t think anyone is qualified to make final statements about OTS, or the cause of cyano problems, until they take on and document a bunch of real work.

Sincerely, B

 

[Lasse]

How to prove - I have always followed the general aspects outlined in post 33 and there is no Cyanobacteria mats in my tank - and I have since 2008 talking about this at the Swedish reef scene. And as long as I follow this - I do not get any cyanobacteria mats in my aquaria. I also put up a thinkable theoretical hypothesis why the methods work. If you claim that your method (taking away detritus) is right because it works for you and for the people you advise - I think that I can use the same argument.

My way of using words (and my way of choosing words) is because of my background and that I have learned during my lifetime - if someone does not understand a word - like monoculture - the answer is two finger tops away - just Google. And perhaps - there will come som knowledge out of it that can be used in the understanding of the aquaria. But I always try to use the words (especially the words that have a scientifically approach) in a context that´s understandable. I do not want to tell a person - just do that and your problem is fixed. We talking about biological systems there the conditions can change or that different causes can give the same visible result. One thing can be the right thing once but give a total disaster another time - even if it looks like it is the same thing is happen. My way of explaining is more of give some basic understanding of biological and ecological interactions - hence make it easier to make own decisions based on their own knowledge rather than do this or do that.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

I don’t disagree with you very much at all. The link proof still stands, alone. Google doesn’t tell or show me how monoculturing helped you change the pace and standard for any real world tanks, and I’ve no doubt yours at home are doing well. The running theme is that all reef sages can reef at home exceptionally.

On page one here you debated Mikes work, looks like it’s time for a replacement article or even better, a works thread. The works thread I made supports his claim 1000% and I wasn’t trying to support anyone’s claim, was trying to show that accumulated detritus is a tank killer in real life if someone, anyone, will bother to get accountable and delve in.

Blusops method features a way to prevent the accumulation beforehand. Nice

 

[Lasse]

how monoculturing helped you change the pace and standard for any real world tanks

Monoculture is IMO the reason for OTS - not the help.

There is many persons you can name drop that I´m not agree with in certain questions - it does not rule out my right to have any other opinion than the person in question. I have seen the word OTS many times - but still not any explanation that is more worth than theories based on normally biological knowledge.

Detritus seems to be the new 42

Sincerely Lasse

 

[kaduozores]

Kaduozores

Wonderful aquarium! If you used a stick to stir up a section of the bed would it still cloud heavily into the water? was curious how deep the fish has worked. That open accessible aquascape looks amazing and in balance for sure and your sandbed cross section looks clean as well

Thank you very much, I'm really enjoying this latest build.

my theory:
My substrate is thin, No. 1, the waste has difficulty getting into the substrate, the gold sleeper goby works all day, grinding the dirt and raising it in the water, and is removed in the sump.

I did a test and I can stir 1 1/2" deep into the substrate without raising any clouds, just some finer grains of the substrate. The was rebuild a year ago, and the fishes are there since the beginning.

It's working for me, but with those gobies I can't have a coral in the substrate, those fishes usually cover the corals.

 

[brandon429]

Fantastic feedback, it truly looks to me that you have arranged the no biological lifespan condition and can measure it beyond just test kits.

your system passes all visual confirmations as well from those white clean pics above, and nobody can claim you went lax on fish bioload to get there
You get the entertainment from that big fish loading but arranged natural balances to sustain it


Detritus doesn’t seem to be a liability for you, as you created zoning in your tank to support that


We agree that a massive classic rock wall approach cannot earn the same balance right? Am stating that reef bommies allow for better detritus control no matter how one plans on getting that done, you’ve amplified your janitor’s ability to cast up and circulate waste just by not making the entire sandbed a five hundred pound rock wall support, I can see that detail in your pics and it seems apparent by being able to handle/test the sandbed without consequence.

 

[Sallstrom]

@Brandon4

you stated theory about cyano causes for pages but never applied your rationale in a single cyano challenge tank for proof (fix a cyano challenge tank using your method, fix ten of them even better)




I don’t know what your method is after reading the example thread and it’s ten pages. I could not gain from the example thread what causes cyano, because nobody bothered to actually work with any cyano to bring it about then suppress it.


You state here a well written challenge to the position of OTS cause and cure...you claimed something opposite from Mike Palettas article on OTS

again I haven’t seen your alternate take on OTS applied and tested in others tanks, and the fact you are working with a reef of significant dilution and volume means I think you’ll have a hard time curing cyano or preventing OTS in any system that doesn’t provide dilution.

There is however a neat way to change my mind, however.


If you want to communicate better with me, do it in work links where we don’t have to read each other’s descriptions. This is an example of work links below, not theory type. 99% of the thread is other people testing my claims. We make a prediction, we follow through, and the results are logged.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Blusops thread here is a fine example of a works link, his statments are being vetted by others


I don’t think anyone is qualified to make final statements about OTS, or the cause of cyano problems, until they take on and document a bunch of real work.

Sincerely, B

I've done that several time, just to try it out. We got two reef tanks with low nutrients and a lot of stony corals. This spring both had an decreasing nitrate, but very slow decrease(1ppm/month). This is large systems, 4000 and 12000 litres.
The frag tanks connected to the larger system started to get cyano before the 10000 litre display tank in the same system.
I started adding KNO3 by a dosing pump in one frag tank, and the cyano went away in two weeks. Same procedure worked for the 4000 litre system.

But this is not the first time I've tried this. We've been adding KNO3 to our low nutrient tanks when the nitrate getting too low and we see cyano starting to come since 2010 thanks to Lasse. Works fine in those tanks.

I think this is a pretty well known method by now, isn't it?!

In high nutrient tanks that's another thing, that's not as easy IMO.

 

[Lasse]

Aquarium 2 years old. Remote reversed deep sand bed with fuge above, + 40 fishes, 80 gallon. Since January 2017 - six WC of 10% January 2018. DT only stirred by fishes and other sand dwelling organisms. Heawy rockwork and a lot of spaces between synthetic rocks and the back of the aquarium. Circulation around 650 GPH. sump 20 gallon - never ever cleaned. Cryptic zoone in the sump. PO4 0.04 - 0.1 ppm. NO2 around 4 ppm. Need to add PO4 and NO3 every day in order to have those concentrations.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

I agree that nutrient boosting/balancing has earned the right to be stated as reputable cyano control, able to be replicated.


But easy to replicate? easier than just cleaning out/removing/replacing the bed to restore balance? —> someone feature that. We need a new cyano challenge, gimme what you got thread, with a water tuner as the guide. I already did the hand tuners version. But that’s work heavy and generally only helpful to those willing to take apart their entire reef for one reason or another.

for large tankers the ability to tune nitrate and phosphate so that naturally-occurring competing communities in a reef tank suppress a given target is critical

combining that skill with balanced and tempered detritus or POM management...sounds bulletproof, appears bulletproof on the pages leading up here


Mccarroll is good at that type work, N and P adjustment. in the nuisance algae and invasion forum he’s got a massive work thread furthering that technique and I know you could guide one as well Sallstrom. If I ever have a large tank where physical access isn’t the cheat du jour I’ll be testing for nitrate and phosphate and not necessarily stripping them.




* are they adding detritus to their tanks to restate balance between N and P, or just the N or the P specific dosers? that’s how it matters here overall in my opinion. Detritus has a price when out of balance...if it was good stuff all around it seems simply storing it up like a 1996 Berlin method reef wouldn’t cause all the troubles it does, and none of us would be stirring or blast cleaning.
______________________________________
Again I’m coralline jealous Lasse that’s an ideal reef. matured rocks and substrate have an unmistakable look when they are produced in place, well done for sure it’s what I consider an ideal look. I’m a stickler for no invasion setups and those rocks are solid coralline and corals that are healthy and verifiably well fed.



Two seemingly opposing systems producing identical after pics (yours and mine) - noted

 

[Lasse]

But are they adding detritus to their tanks to restate balance, or just the N or the P, that’s how it matters here overall in my opinion.

Will comeback to this in the other thread later this evening (local time).

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

I agree that nutrient boosting/balancing has earned the right to be stated as reputable cyano control, able to be replicated.


But easy to replicate? easier than just cleaning out/removing/replacing the bed to restore balance? —> someone feature that. We need a new cyano challenge, gimme what you got thread, with a water tuner as the guide. I already did the hand tuners version. But that’s work heavy and generally only helpful to those willing to take apart their entire reef for one reason or another.

for large tankers the ability to tune nitrate and phosphate so that naturally-occurring competing communities in a reef tank suppress a given target is critical

Imagine combining that skill with balanced and tempered detritus or POM management, sounds bulletproof.


Mccarroll is good at that type work, N and P adjustment. in the nuisance algae and invasion forum he’s got a massive work thread furthering that technique and I know you could guide one as well Sallstrom. If I ever have a large tank where physical access isn’t the cheat du joure I’ll be testing for nitrate and phosphate and not necesssrily stripping them.




* are they adding detritus to their tanks to restate balance between N and P, or just the N or the P specific dosers? that’s how it matters here overall in my opinion. Detritus has a price when out of balance...if it was good stuff all around it seems simply storing it up like a 1996 Berlin method reef wouldn’t cause all the troubles it does, and none of us would be stirring or blast cleaning.
______________________________________
Again I’m coralline jealous Lasse that’s an ideal reef. Truly matured rocks and substrate have an unmistakable look when they are produced in place, well done for sure it’s perfect. I’m a stickler for no invasion setups and those rocks are solid coralline and coral



Two seemingly opposing systems producing nearly identical after pics, noted

Well, for me it's easy to replicate. I can just let the NO3 drop in those tanks and do it over again like we've done for some years now But I guess you mean in other tanks.
Well, thats where the patience problem comes in. You give the advice to add nitrate daily and meassure the parameters regulary, and wait the time it takes for the cyano to disappear. Sometime you see some results the first week, sometimes it takes 3 weeks. Most have already poured in some medicine or turned the tank upside down by that time
I see cyanobacteria as something opportunistic, they do well in enviroments thats changing a lot. I like to try keeping everything as stable as possible, to aviod changes. I mean, we've gotten cyano because of an accidentely increase of light hours(2 hours a day). After we switched back to normal light hours the cyano went away in a week. We changed something, perhaps NO3 dropped because of more growth. I don't know. Maybe the temperature went up?
But anyway, I would gladely try to help someone who had similiar cyano as we have now and then.

Edit. Forgot to answer about adding detritus. I rather add KNO3(or KH2PO4 if we need phosphate) instead of adding something else.

 

[ReefWithCare]

Hi there,

I remember seeing this pop up a couple of years ago and totally forgot about it. My tank is less than 5 months and I'm thinking of doing this because I do not have a CUC to stir sand. I'm not sure about doing it everyday though --- is can this be done every week or every 3-4 days instead? I actually prefer this method over a CUC or a sand stirring fish. I do not keep any corals on my sandbed.

 

[brandon429]

in my opinion there is no right frequency to run it, they're showing it can be done as a matter of routine any way you see fit/ that it's unharmful for you to customize.

 

[ReefWithCare]

in my opinion there is no right frequency to run it, they're showing it can be done as a matter of routine any way you see fit/ that it's unharmful for you to customize.

Cool. I just stirred one of the sections of my tank —- hopefully I don’t kill anything [emoji28]