" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "

[fishybizzness]

Just did a water change with nsw. Blasted the rocks and sand with a turkey baster. Sand is nice and white just like I like it!

 

[blusop]

@brandon429 I think we've talked before ... and as always I respect and value your insight .... I'm actually about to begin a comparison between a tank using my method and one that's running on a basic method of no sand movement at all ... to see how each responds .... it's a bunch of details I need to chart down ... using my own tank is a beginning step and other reefers tanks do give me an idea of how it varies from different reefing methods but it's still not an exact analysis because I'm not controlling the variables some one else is ... but as you said I need an accountability for my claims beyond my own system ... hopefully you won't have to wait too long ... as you can tell it takes me a few days to get a response on this thread because of my work schedule and being a single parent ... but I've been thinking about a thread as you mentioned to see the varying degrees of success and failure related to my method ... I haven't heard any horror stories yet but that does not mean they don't exist .... if there are I would love to see where they deterred from my method or if they followed it exactly and I have flaws that need to be addressed so that I can adjust them.... anything that betters this hobby for ALL refers is worth doing the leg work and making sure it's viable

 

[brandon429]

Not once in these fine scientific hashings was I aiming any challenge at you although in a willing mosh pit, we all get some shoves heh. I'm a supporter of sandbed stirring all the way. I support the extreme actions beyond of full removal of a sandbed, boiling it for example to kill anything after pre rinsing it, or any other kill step, and putting it back as totally clean grains.

Self empowerment over a misbehaving reef, or preventative actions accomplishing no invasion vs backseat reactive reefing, it's all I've ever wanted and demanded from peers heh.

The fact my method kills small animals really offends many, but I'm claiming it's the equivalent of a no sandbed tank which myriad examples show also grows coral, in fact, its building as the most common option

See Mike Palettas massive documented build. After reading, he is taking steps away from common sandbedding. He's running a reef not like the normal way, nondisturbance. He has accounted for detritus fully. Completely...he wrote the article on OTS so I'd expect no less consistency.

your thread is a fine vehicle for staunch challenges because it's one of the few action threads on a sandbed we can find

The other is the sand rinse thread, heh, actioners are no majority, they're against the grain

Pun intended

The people I wish would test written theory and -post- that non theory work are, in order:
Lasse.

That'll do. Your thread already is an action thread on its own, what we need are the proponents of total waste storage and nutrient tuning for all invasions to make some work, yours doesn't need alteration. But if you want to step in and add comparative science to the null hypothesis or any other, then that's more stepping up on your part admirably.

How about some proponents of hands off, detritus storing old school advocates post a ten page thread work, that'd be awesome additional work linked here for compare and contrast.



I don't want to be told what an ocean study says is happening. I'd rather see the bulk data and lemme scan patterns myself, work threads, people repeating a pattern. Thank you for providing that.

You presented what I find to be the sole credible source of reef tank science, pages of people successfully replicating your offer. Rare as a three dollar bill
B

 

[blusop]

@Pocky thanx my friend .... everything else is fine .... that incident still nags me ... 7 years and it even survived the crash in October that 75% of my corals didn't survive smh ... and when everything is fine (levels were in my normal range) it starts dieing ??? I'm still investigating this one

 

[Lasse]

The people I wish would test written theory and -post- that non theory work are, in order:
Lasse.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lasses-dream-build.246188/

and here is my automatic sand stir method for display tanks.



Note this sand has not been cleaned, no detritus remove anywhere and in the backside - it is a 25 cm thick sand bed. Been redone once - no cleaning whatever. No cleaning of sump. Since more than 20 months- only 6 * 16 % WC 8 months ago. The tank is 26 months old

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

@brandon429
I might have missed a few post in this thread so forgive me if these questions have been up before. But I have so many questions

I agree on cleaning rocks and the sand will make the tank look cleaner. What is the next step in your idea after the cleaning?

I haven't seen that much writing about nutrient levels in your posts. What are your thoughts on the nutrients(in the water)?

I've seen you write that an older tank is more stable/resistance against what you call invaders. Why do you think that is?

You often write things like the detritus in the sand bed is what causes the problems (like cyano etc). How come old tanks can have white sand and no problems, even if the sand is full of detritus?

 

[brandon429]

For the nutrients part i want to refer to last page of the sand rinse thread for an active measure.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/page-12

I usually do not work with peoples nutrient levels, including the 10 page peroxide works thread, because being tank invaded is a human -psychological- condition of allowance and permissiveness... it’s not a nutrient issue or I would have been using nutrients the last decade in building these threads.

Nutrtient tuning is valid, for growback prevention and for lessening cleaning work. There are 110 ways to prevent cyano, and about one good way I know to cure it when it’s there anyway.

I do not ever advise someone to use nutrient controls to make a tank uninvaded, to change water parameters while corals are growing well but an invader nests alongside them...that’s why we’ve never bleached any corals in all my works, not one.


I see and read in messages ALL the time about people bleaching corals through nutrient adjustments, no pox, gfo and pellet use.

we work on the invasion part by trying to sell people on becoming uninvaded, and they usually hesitate/ fight it in little ways we can see as they mentally hold on to their invader for one or more reasons. To the degree they let go of the invasion and do the deep clean, that’s the degree of sustain / turnaround time it takes to restore the tank.


After my cleaning, they can become sand stirrers like in Blusops thread for all the preventative steps they need wo another big takedown


Psychology of being invaded:
-I can’t clean, it destabilizes the tank and kills bacteria.
-I can’t clean the tank, it removes little tiny worms in my sandbed I can’t see, but know are there due to my microscope.
-I can’t clean because that doesn’t fix anything (though anyone actually reading my threads for patterns doesn’t see tank rejuvenators claiming that at all, only outsiders state that)
-I can’t clean the cyano bc my tank is new and it’s in the uglies phase.
-I can’t expect my tank to be invasion compliant because I used dry white rock and dry sand, zero internal competitors.
-I can’t clean, it’s too much work, I’ve got a 210 and you have a one gallon, not fair. (Woes of the large tanker)
-I can’t be cyano free until I get my N and P in line and sustain that
-Many more I can’ts...

‘I can’t’ is the sole part of being invaded I was meant to work in (against) and we don’t need to know N and P to address the amazing psychology of purposefully holding onto an invasion while asking for help curing it. My threads are aimed undoing each I can’t, then taking pics of it.

There is no I can’t on the last page of the sand rinse thread, that man was an I can, we did, make a video of our family having a fun evening taking back control of our home aquarium, and laughing with fun while doing it. Rare

The last part above, about successful large tanks, I agree those exist and I have my opinions as to why that dichotomy exists BUT let’s let these sand stirrers speak. All these tanks are big, and many mention coming back from the brink of cyano only by stirring and releasing detritus vs being pent up with it, why if large tanks can find balance without ejection work, do we have a multi pager here of being non invaded solely by working the bed physically? If hands off worked as well, water tuners and nutrient tuners would produce similar works threads

Variation exists in being hands off, and in that variation are the thousands of wrecked tanks asking for help. Some have zero problems and work well, agreed.
My goal on the threads is to stop variation and make outcomes align by using simple cleaning + rules I know from working in the microbiology industry and so far it’s working to the tune of 90% sustained happy cured reef tanks. I have a few noncompliants as any large thread maker will eventually see (and I cants certainly factor there as well)

*It's easy to find theories about what causes and controls cyano and blanketed invader issues in aquariums, but it's very hard obviously to find threads that consistently cure it for pages. Seems like the hands on crew got everyone else by a car length? They're providing the sole proof in pics at least.

 

[fishybizzness]

I stir and blast my sand with a baster regularly and I still have a healthy worm population. I also have a green brittle star that shows itself every once in a while! Along with the gobies that tunnel under all the rocks, my sandbed stays pretty clean.

 

[brandon429]

Looks really good. Not invaded and that guy is fat n fed

 

[fishybizzness]

It's always a treat to see it come crawling out from under a rock after a month of thinking it's dead!! They are very elusive creatures!

 

[Sallstrom]

For the nutrients part i want to refer to last page of the sand rinse thread for an active measure.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/page-12

I usually do not work with peoples nutrient levels, including the 10 page peroxide works thread, because being tank invaded is a human -psychological- condition of allowance and permissiveness... it’s not a nutrient issue or I would have been using nutrients the last decade in building these threads.

Nutrtient tuning is valid, for growback prevention and for lessening cleaning work. There are 110 ways to prevent cyano, and about one good way I know to cure it when it’s there anyway.

I do not ever advise someone to use nutrient controls to make a tank uninvaded, to change water parameters while corals are growing well but an invader nests alongside them...that’s why we’ve never bleached any corals in all my works, not one.


I see and read in messages ALL the time about people bleaching corals through nutrient adjustments, no pox, gfo and pellet use.

we work on the invasion part by trying to sell people on becoming uninvaded, and they usually hesitate/ fight it in little ways we can see as they mentally hold on to their invader for one or more reasons. To the degree they let go of the invasion and do the deep clean, that’s the degree of sustain / turnaround time it takes to restore the tank.


After my cleaning, they can become sand stirrers like in Blusops thread for all the preventative steps they need wo another big takedown


Psychology of being invaded:
-I can’t clean, it destabilizes the tank and kills bacteria.
-I can’t clean the tank, it removes little tiny worms in my sandbed I can’t see, but know are there due to my microscope.
-I can’t clean because that doesn’t fix anything (though anyone actually reading my threads for patterns doesn’t see tank rejuvenators claiming that at all, only outsiders state that)
-I can’t clean the cyano bc my tank is new and it’s in the uglies phase.
-I can’t expect my tank to be invasion compliant because I used dry white rock and dry sand, zero internal competitors.
-I can’t clean, it’s too much work, I’ve got a 210 and you have a one gallon, not fair. (Woes of the large tanker)
-I can’t be cyano free until I get my N and P in line and sustain that
-Many more I can’ts...

‘I can’t’ is the sole part of being invaded I was meant to work in (against) and we don’t need to know N and P to address the amazing psychology of purposefully holding onto an invasion while asking for help curing it. My threads are aimed undoing each I can’t, then taking pics of it.

There is no I can’t on the last page of the sand rinse thread, that man was an I can, we did, make a video of our family having a fun evening taking back control of our home aquarium, and laughing with fun while doing it. Rare

The last part above, about successful large tanks, I agree those exist and I have my opinions as to why that dichotomy exists BUT let’s let these sand stirrers speak. All these tanks are big, and many mention coming back from the brink of cyano only by stirring and releasing detritus vs being pent up with it, why if large tanks can find balance without ejection work, do we have a multi pager here of being non invaded solely by working the bed physically? If hands off worked as well, water tuners and nutrient tuners would produce similar works threads

Variation exists in being hands off, and in that variation are the thousands of wrecked tanks asking for help. Some have zero problems and work well, agreed.
My goal on the threads is to stop variation and make outcomes align by using simple cleaning + rules I know from working in the microbiology industry and so far it’s working to the tune of 90% sustained happy cured reef tanks. I have a few noncompliants as any large thread maker will eventually see (and I cants certainly factor there as well)

*It's easy to find theories about what causes and controls cyano and blanketed invader issues in aquariums, but it's very hard obviously to find threads that consistently cure it for pages. Seems like the hands on crew got everyone else by a car length? They're providing the sole proof in pics at least.

Okey. Thank you for a long answer. I think I got most of it. But I might have to go back later today since it seems like you go back and edit a lot and changing the text

You have a "method" for cleaning a reef tank. That's great. But what I miss in your posts is an idea of running a reef tank without getting into those problems you talk about. Or is the idea to clean it over and over again?
I already got my idea, so I'm okey. Just curious

 

[brandon429]

You're not self inspecting ready information to see if we have to clean forever, I'll let you hunt around. The sand stirrers thread apparently is ongoing cleaning, but then again who has the work threads


You provide that part, how to take reefs in others homes and have them run consistently then. make your link.

The tanks you run at work supported by multi thousand dollar eq do count, that's a lot on the line and extremely powerful experience, but I'm asking for thread work.

Make res publica reef behave, then link it. Make your thesis into a pattern you can elicit in any ten page thread. Sell em on participating, actioners do this night and day why is it always pulling teeth to get water tuners to make a work thread. It's the scariest accountability online, but after page six it's what we like to do 24x7

I think if you start a proof thread asking to cure people's cyano, they'll post.


I think if you make a thread about how to start new reefs, people will submit offers for tracking. Actioners always have this type of material handy, and the sincere show up having already read it and wanting to remark upon certain examples from the threads.

 

[Sallstrom]

You're not self inspecting ready information to see if we have to clean forever, I'll let you hunt around. The sand stirrers thread apparently is ongoing cleaning, but then again who has the work threads


You provide that part, how to take reefs in others homes and have them run consistently then. make your link.

The tanks you run at work supported by multi thousand dollar eq do count, that's a lot on the line and extremely powerful experience, but I'm asking for thread work.

Make res publica reef behave, then link it. Make your thesis into a pattern you can elicit in any ten page thread. Sell em on participating, actioners do this night and day why is it always pulling teeth to get water tuners to make a work thread. It's the scariest accountability online, but after page six it's what we like to do 24x7

I think if you start a proof thread asking to cure people's cyano, they'll post.


I think if you make a thread about how to start new reefs, people will submit offers for tracking. Actioners always have this type of material handy, and the sincere show up having already read it and wanting to remark upon certain examples from the threads.

I'm not sure if you first sentences were answers to the questions about the method after the cleaning was done? Sorry if I don't follow, I'm trying the best I can. English is my second language.
If the answer is - stirr the sand bed and try to get as much detritus out as possible even after the big cleaning, then okey. That's a method.

Yes, I work at a public aquarium. No, we don't have a large budget. Compared to many of the tanks on R2R our ones are low budget(if you look at $ per volume). No, we don't have any magic machines helping us(other then aquarium computers, the hobby version). That's why we need to find easy ways to run tanks. We don't have any volunteers so we need to save time wherever we can. It's not because we're lazy

If you have a look at my build thread you'll see at least two large reef tanks, from start until today. And I'll give all information you like, just ask
There are some more tanks, but since they were started 2005 I don't have pictures or data for the first 5 years. But since 2010 I have.

 

[Lasse]

My tank is 80 gallon - not a large tank. And it still there as an example of that biological mature and stable tanks works without taking out and restart every 3 month or manually remove detritus. You asked for examples that our "theories" works - you got it both from me and David but you can´t still admit that there are many ways to skin a cat.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[blusop]

Wow ... since I've started this thread in 2016 I've seen all kinds of methods of different reefers and theories as well ... keep them coming ... I'm glad to see that many reefers agree that to keep a healthy system is not just achievable by one method only .... I'm a welder by trade and as a welder we learn that no 2 welders will do it exactly the same but if the end result is success then using a different path to get to that success is alright in my book

 

[Devaji]

ah just what I needed...I am debating BB or sand in my 90 reboot. I put the fish LR and corals in a 40br that IS BB and kinda like it.
BUT I LOVE THE LOOK OF SAND so I keep going back in forth BB or sand. I need to spend an hour so so and read through this whole thread.
I love the idea of a nice clean sand bed the GF will to..
question those of you with large LPS do you move them to stir the SB?

I am inspired with sand again.

I love it that there are so many ways to reefing and finding the "right" way for each tank and each person is half the fun/challenge.

 

[sghera64]

ah just what I needed...I am debating BB or sand in my 90 reboot. I put the fish LR and corals in a 40br that IS BB and kinda like it.
BUT I LOVE THE LOOK OF SAND so I keep going back in forth BB or sand. I need to spend an hour so so and read through this whole thread.
I love the idea of a nice clean sand bed the GF will to..
question those of you with large LPS do you move them to stir the SB?

I am inspired with sand again.

I love it that there are so many ways to reefing and finding the "right" way for each tank and each person is half the fun/challenge.

I put my goniopora in the sand (metallic green, red and purple). I put a few of my torch corals in there and I have a very large wall hammer in the sand in the back. If fact, it's time to "take the wall down". [I mean, remove and frag it].

I also have a huge blue clam nestled in the sand.

I use 2" diameter x 3" tall PVC pipe to "suspend" my live rock above the sand by 0-0.5 inches.

I only do BB in my sump, fuge and sometimes on "certain" beaches along the French coast. (Just kidding - - - I have some sand in my sump).

 

[Devaji]

I put my goniopora in the sand (metallic green, red and purple). I put a few of my torch corals in there and I have a very large wall hammer in the sand in the back. If fact, it's time to "take the wall down". [I mean, remove and frag it].

I also have a huge blue clam nestled in the sand.

I use 2" diameter x 3" tall PVC pipe to "suspend" my live rock above the sand by 0-0.5 inches.

I only do BB in my sump, fuge and sometimes on "certain" beaches along the French coast. (Just kidding - - - I have some sand in my sump).

well you know there are beaches in Hawaii that are Bare bottom no need to go to the french cost...lol
I have decided to keep the sand on the reboot and make an effort to keep it clean. never was really bad. but sure would like it like @blusop

 

[brandon429]

how about this

I like the look of sand too, I need it for overall zen balance but not its diapering ability

in your 90, assemble a removable if needed but locked-in type column or small wall that sits on the bare bottom. plan for it as if its a bare bottom setup, the weight is already balanced and locked and ready for bare bottom aging. then when ready add some bags of pre rinsed live sand, cloudless, to the bottom and cover around the live rocks already resting on the bottom. small bits of detritus w get up under them but not too bad

the vision I had was that you still get the look of sand, but its not covered by nor it is supporting the weight of your overall rock scape, therefore it is accessible for stirring, occasional change outs, wrasses etc.

use the sandbed, but know the accessibility is key and plan for being able to disassemble clean the tank if needed. mind your fish bioloading as they're the top contributors to sandbed waste, and live rocks are second in my opinion. live rock pumps out detritus daily, its tenants do.

 

[Devaji]

how about this

I like the look of sand too, I need it for overall zen balance but not its diapering ability

in your 90, assemble a removable if needed but locked-in type column or small wall that sits on the bare bottom. plan for it as if its a bare bottom setup, the weight is already balanced and locked and ready for bare bottom aging. then when ready add some bags of pre rinsed live sand, cloudless, to the bottom and cover around the live rocks already resting on the bottom. small bits of detritus w get up under them but not too bad

the vision I had was that you still get the look of sand, but its not covered by nor it is supporting the weight of your overall rock scape, therefore it is accessible for stirring, occasional change outs, wrasses etc.

use the sandbed, but know the accessibility is key and plan for being able to disassemble clean the tank if needed. mind your fish bioloading as they're the top contributors to sandbed waste, and live rocks are second in my opinion. live rock pumps out detritus daily, its tenants do.

interesting idea...I do have a sand sleeping wrasse and might get a cpl more...kinda a wrasse guy. he 's doing well in the BB tank.
I also love large bouncy LPS, lobos, trachys, scollys etc. so I worry about moving them to stir the SB. but better that than nasty sand.
I will also be using an ATS as well as a carbon reactor, so hopefully with everything I can have a delicious sand bed.