Mystery illness and fish death

[tommyiv]

Hi all,
I'm a long time fresh water keeper and new to salt water. Hopefully I'm posting this in the right place. So a little over two months ago I set up a 20 gallon long AIO. I set the tank up with 20lbs of live sand (packaged) and roughly 20lbs of marco rock. For water, i picked up an RODI system and mixed my own with instant ocean. To start off the cycle I ran Dr. Tim's one and only along with stability and added ammonia. After a month the tank was giving me 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and really low nitrate.
I spoke to the owner of my lfs who had this awesome pair of black stubby clowns and by his judgement my tank would be ready for them. So I took them home and drip acclimated them to the tank. The fish were doing great until 2 days ago when i noticed the female looking a little lethargic. Yesterday when I came home from work, the female was laying on the sand breathing heavy and the male was starting to look bad as well. I did an emergency water change and ran to my local big box pet store to dose the tank with Melafix and Pimafix. I have been doing weekly water changes and all of my parameters have been on point. Sadly, when I woke up this morning both fish had passed. I am at a loss as to what happened. Neither fish showed any physical sign of illness, they were the only animals in the tank and nothing new was ever introduced. I don't understand how they could be doing great for 4 weeks and suddenly crash like this.
If anyone could help point me in the direction of what might have happened I would really appreciate it. I own a bunch of animals and take a lot of pride in my husbandry. Losing pets like this sucks.

 

[00W]

Hi all,
I'm a long time fresh water keeper and new to salt water. Hopefully I'm posting this in the right place. So a little over two months ago I set up a 20 gallon long AIO. I set the tank up with 20lbs of live sand (packaged) and roughly 20lbs of marco rock. For water, i picked up an RODI system and mixed my own with instant ocean. To start off the cycle I ran Dr. Tim's one and only along with stability and added ammonia. After a month the tank was giving me 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and really low nitrate.
I spoke to the owner of my lfs who had this awesome pair of black stubby clowns and by his judgement my tank would be ready for them. So I took them home and drip acclimated them to the tank. The fish were doing great until 2 days ago when i noticed the female looking a little lethargic. Yesterday when I came home from work, the female was laying on the sand breathing heavy and the male was starting to look bad as well. I did an emergency water change and ran to my local big box pet store to dose the tank with Melafix and Pimafix. I have been doing weekly water changes and all of my parameters have been on point. Sadly, when I woke up this morning both fish had passed. I am at a loss as to what happened. Neither fish showed any physical sign of illness, they were the only animals in the tank and nothing new was ever introduced. I don't understand how they could be doing great for 4 weeks and suddenly crash like this.
If anyone could help point me in the direction of what might have happened I would really appreciate it. I own a bunch of animals and take a lot of pride in my husbandry. Losing pets like this sucks.

Welcome Welcome to R2R!
Sorry for your losses.
Let's start with the basics and I'll ask you some questions.
"On point " parameters are different for everyone so why don't you post what those are?
Who and how is the testing done?
Flow?
Filtration?
How about some pictures that usually gives us all a better idea of what you've got going on.
What prompted the use of medication?
I've never used medication in my whole saltwater career so I can't speak for that but I'm not sure you want to use both at the same time.
Give me a little more help and I'll do my best to help.
I feel for ya.
Joel

 

[tommyiv]

Welcome Welcome to R2R!
Sorry for your losses.
Let's start with the basics and I'll ask you some questions.
"On point " parameters are different for everyone so why don't you post what those are?
Who and how is the testing done?
Flow?
Filtration?
How about some pictures that usually gives us all a better idea of what you've got going on.
What prompted the use of medication?
I've never used medication in my whole saltwater career so I can't speak for that but I'm not sure you want to use both at the same time.
Give me a little more help and I'll do my best to help.
I feel for ya.
Joel

Thank you for responding. I do my own testing with an app kit (I know will be upgrading soon) ph-8 Ammonia-0ppm Nitrite-0ppm Nitrate<5ppm Phosphate-.25ppm Salinity-1.024 Temp-79°. I haven't been testing for anything else because my current understanding is that the other tests really only become necessary when adding coral. I don't plan on adding coral until some coralline starts to show.
Right now I am running the pumps that came with the innovative marine nuvo with both outflows angled towards the surface of the water. I ran a wave maker for a little while initially but it seemed to stress the fish. The flow I get with the stock pumps seems adequate and my lfs agreed. The two overflows are using 2 stage filter floss that I change out 2x per week. Other than than I have added extra rock into one baffle chamber and some activated carbon in the other.
I've been feeding new life spectrum pellets and frozen mysis, which up until 2 days ago the clown would eat like pigs.
I admit the medication was a panic move as I didn't know what else to do. The bottles also say that you can dose them both simultaneously so that's what I did as a last ditch effort. At the time of dosing both fish were already looking really bad unfortunately.
I plan to leave the tank empty for the next 8 weeks incase it is something that has to starve out. Thanks again for any help here.

 

[00W]

Thank you for responding. I do my own testing with an app kit (I know will be upgrading soon) ph-8 Ammonia-0ppm Nitrite-0ppm Nitrate<5ppm Phosphate-.25ppm Salinity-1.024 Temp-79°. I haven't been testing for anything else because my current understanding is that the other tests really only become necessary when adding coral. I don't plan on adding coral until some coralline starts to show.
Right now I am running the pumps that came with the innovative marine nuvo with both outflows angled towards the surface of the water. I ran a wave maker for a little while initially but it seemed to stress the fish. The flow I get with the stock pumps seems adequate and my lfs agreed. The two overflows are using 2 stage filter floss that I change out 2x per week. Other than than I have added extra rock into one baffle chamber and some activated carbon in the other.
I've been feeding new life spectrum pellets and frozen mysis, which up until 2 days ago the clown would eat like pigs.
I admit the medication was a panic move as I didn't know what else to do. The bottles also say that you can dose them both simultaneously so that's what I did as a last ditch effort. At the time of dosing both fish were already looking really bad unfortunately.
I plan to leave the tank empty for the next 8 weeks incase it is something that has to starve out. Thanks again for any help here.

Well it sounds like you've got a good handle on the situation and a nice understanding of the hobby so good job there.
I mean your tank looks basically brand new, which it basically is and I can't really give you any conclusions on the fish suffice to say might just have been too soon for them.
I really don't know.
Diseases are definitely not my specialty just trying to help in any way I can.
Leaving it fallow is probably a good idea.
Keep oxygenation good, flow good during fallow period.
Don't give up.
Sometimes no matter how hard we try things are just out of our control.
This probably doesn't help you in any way but I thought I'd say hello and try to be positive.
If you need anything else please ask and best of luck.
Joel

 

[Duane family]

Hi, sorry to hear about your loss.

I'm curious why you did not consider a quarantine process ?
I'm also curious if you did any research on the clownfish before you decided to purchase them ?

With research you should have understood that clown fish very commonly carry Brooklynella which results in significant losses of clown fish in captivity.

I'm not saying this is exactly the reason for your fish dying but there is a significant chance this is why.

In my experience over decades of keeping marine fish and owning a marine fish store, is that 95% of fish die due to a situation caused by ether the collector (if applicable) the supplier or the fish keeper. It's highly unlikely that a healthy fish just died for no reason.

I'm trying not to be harsh but I would like to make the point that if someone is going to buy fish and plop them straight into a display tank then what you have experienced is going to continue to happen.

 

[00W]

Fish were in a brand new tank by themselves for 4 weeks I consider that a quarantine, at least an observation period.
If Brooklynella fish would have gotten it way earlier not 4 weeks later.
Trying to keep things as upbeat and positive as possible for the OP.
Reading his response to me he seems as though he's done his due diligence, might just need some positivity and everyone deserves a break now and again.

 

[Duane family]

Fish were in a brand new tank by themselves for 4 weeks I consider that a quarantine, at least an observation period.
If Brooklynella fish would have gotten it way earlier not 4 weeks later.
Trying to keep things as upbeat and positive as possible for the OP.
Reading his response to me he seems as though he's done his due diligence, might just need some positivity and everyone deserves a break now and again.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/
The above quarantine guidelines were not written for anyone's entertainment. They were written to avoid what is likely to occur when a fish is acquired from a fellow reefer or a store and put straight into a display tank. Disease/bacterial infections or most commonly parasites are transferred with the fish. Without experience the owner will not know what to look out for, when there is a problem it's often to late.

Quarantine protocols should not be for sick fish, they are for all fish as a preventative measure.

The trend of knowingly taking a short cut or neglecting to run a quarantine process due to a lack of knowledge plays its self out over and over again. I don't mind at all being the grindge who highlights this point.

 

[tommyiv]

I had done a great deal of research before setting up my tank and starting this hobby. I spent time in my Lfs and observed the fish that I ended up bringing home. I actually had my Lfs hold the fish for an additional week so I could observe them more before bringing them home. As I said in my initial post, the fish did not display any physical symptoms that would lead me to believe it was Brooklynella, Ich or Velvet. They were also eating and defecating normally. I'm not sure if it matters, but both fish were captive bred.
If there had been other livestock in the tank I would have quarantined the new arrivals. Due to the fact that I had observed them for a week already and that the other fish in the LFS looked healthy, I did not want to poison and stress the animals with a copper bath.
Additionally, my general understanding is that most of the parasites and diseases that these animals are susceptible to tend to be fatal in a relatively short amount of time. I am not sure if it even was a disease or parasite seeing that it took a month to be fatal.
The entire reason for my post here is to attempt and get to the bottom of what to me is a mystery. I have already scoured the forums to try and come up with an answer as to whether this is a tank issue or an animal ailment.
The presumption that measures were "short cut " due to ignorance is arrogant. It also does not serve to answer what my initial question was.

 

[Duane family]

I think the possibility of there being something potentially fatal with your water chemistry or your system is highly unlikely. You seem to have a good understanding of what is required to keep fish healthy.

As an example, someone with a basic 1 year experience with keeping marine fish should be able to keep a pair of clownfish alive for more than 4 weeks in a 10gallon tank with a airstone and a heater.

The possibility that you received unhealthy fish and just didn't recognize this is significant.

I say again, I believe your tank is fine and you did a decent job there.

 

[luis angel]

Hi, sorry to hear about your loss.

I'm curious why you did not consider a quarantine process ?
I'm also curious if you did any research on the clownfish before you decided to purchase them ?

Is 4 weeks in a tank with only sand and rocks not considered quarantine? Does it matter if they were in the main tank or a separate tank if they were the only ones in the tank? Because As far as I know, Melafix and Pimafix have nothing to do with having sand and rocks in the tank to medicate.

With research you should have understood that clown fish very commonly carry Brooklynella which results in significant losses of clown fish in captivity.

Could you explain what kind of research can be done to keep a pair of clownfish?

I'm trying not to be harsh but I would like to make the point that if someone is going to buy fish and plop them straight into a display tank then what you have experienced is going to continue to happen.

I don't understand your point my friend. If you hadn't wanted to be harsh, you wouldn't have written so much and you would have asked the OP some simple questions before assuming

 

[Duane family]

Is 4 weeks in a tank with only sand and rocks not considered quarantine? Does it matter if they were in the main tank or a separate tank if they were the only ones in the tank? Because As far as I know, Melafix and Pimafix have nothing to do with having sand and rocks in the tank to medicate.


Could you explain what kind of research can be done to keep a pair of clownfish?


I don't understand your point my friend. If you hadn't wanted to be harsh, you wouldn't have written so much and you would have asked the OP some simple questions before assumi

Is 4 weeks in a tank with only sand and rocks not considered quarantine? Does it matter if they were in the main tank or a separate tank if they were the only ones in the tank? Because As far as I know, Melafix and Pimafix have nothing to do with having sand and rocks in the tank to medicate.


Could you explain what kind of research can be done to keep a pair of clownfish?


I don't understand your point my friend. If you hadn't wanted to be harsh, you wouldn't have written so much and you would have asked the OP some simple questions before assuming

Please read carefully the quarantine protocol linked in my post. Which is carefully and diligently created by a professional in the industry and point out exactly where it identifies a 4 week period in a tank without any intervention as a quarantine method.
Observation better describes this, Observation will not cure any underlying issues a fish may have. Quarantine methods as described in the protocol will cure underlying issues.
Researching clownfish would have brought anyone to understand what potential parasites and other issues significant with this species.
I made general statements, I did not accuse him or her of anything. And of course I must assume the possibilities how else ?

I say again there is a significant problem with tossing fish into a display aquarium directly from an a source not under your control. That is a fact, and a simple temporary quarantine tank and a few extra weeks will change that.

 

[luis angel]

Please read carefully the quarantine protocol linked in my post.

Not interested

Which is carefully and diligently created by a professional in the industry and point out exactly where it identifies a 4 week period in a tank without any intervention as a quarantine method.

what the OP did, or not?

I made general statements, I did not accuse him or her of anything. And of course I must assume the possibilities how else ?

You did it, and I quote your own words

"I'm curious why you did not consider a quarantine process ?
I'm also curious if you did any research on the clownfish before you decided to purchase them ? "

I say again there is a significant problem with tossing fish into a display aquarium directly from an a source not under your control. That is a fact, and a simple temporary quarantine tank and a few extra weeks will change that.

I have a question, as you are a store owner, do you quarantine all the fish you sell?

 

[WalkerLovesTheOcean]

I think the possibility of there being something potentially fatal with your water chemistry or your system is highly unlikely.

How do you know that? I am just curious. How do you know that OP hasn't used any harsh chemicals around the tank, burned candles or used essential oils? Had OP stated the TDS of the water coming from their RODI setup? I don't think so. Before we jump to the conclusion that because OP didn't quarantine (which really, he did IMO just with rocks and sand) caused their fish to die, let's brainstorm some more possibilities.

P.S. I have dropped fish in from both my LFS and a PetCo, and have had no disease. Maybe I am just lucky?

 

[Tamberav]

Sorry about your clowns :(

Did you ever noticed elevated breathing or any sort of scratching or odd behavior?

What did they do when the powerhead was in the tank that made you think they were stressed?

Wondering if there was subtle signs of gill issues. Like perhaps not liking the powerhead because they were already exerting extra energy from illness.

I also wonder about stubby clowns and poor breeding, flared gills, etc but would not think they would both die simultaneously.

 

[Duane family]

Not interested

what the OP did, or not?

You did it, and I quote your own words

"I'm curious why you did not consider a quarantine process ?
I'm also curious if you did any research on the clownfish before you decided to purchase them ? "

I have a question, as you are a store owner, do you quarantine all the fish you sell?

My intention was not to engage in an argument. My intention intention was to highlight that propper research and preparation is required before fish are purchased and that a diligent quarantine process is required after fish are purchased.

So our exchange ends here unfortunately, I hope you learned something

 

[smitten with ocean life]

i think telling someone to thoroughly research a fish is kinda like throwing a blanket over them. yes, you can learn a lot BUT it can also be extremely confusing and scare someone away when, imo, thats not necessary. for me anyways, you learn as you go. and sometimes you lose stuff without learning anything!!! yes, we need to do our due diligence and practice good stewardship. but after awhile you need to start somewhere. and one of the things ive learned here on r2r is that the whole thing on qting is debatable. not arguing either way. just sayin- everyone has their opinion on it!
op- keep on learning and trying. sorry about your fish.
i wish you the best with your next try!

 

[tommyiv]

Thank you for all the responses. I wanted to add some more information regarding the tank and my setup. My RODI water reads 0 before I mix in salt. The powerhead I was using was cheap and too powerful for the tank the fish struggled to swim in it, so i removed it with plans to purchase a smaller one in the future. The tank is in my bedroom and neither I or my wife use candles or spray any chemicals in there.

Something interesting that happed about a week and a half ago that might be related. I had a thin layer of diatoms that started appearing in the tank shortly after i introduced the fish. They never got out of control and slowly faded. What i think was hair algae also started to appear at this time along with copepods. Then I woke up one morning a week and a half ago and it was all gone. As of right now, there are only a few very light green spots on the rocks and a bunch of copepods.

I never noticed any odd breathing in the fish or scratching. At this point, I am going to keep the tank empty until Dec 1st which will make 8 weeks fallow. I will most likely add some ammonia every week to keep the bacteria active and continue with my normal maintenance. Is there anything thing else I should do with the tank during this 8 weeks to give me more of a head start?

 

[Duane family]

Thank you for all the responses. I wanted to add some more information regarding the tank and my setup. My RODI water reads 0 before I mix in salt. The powerhead I was using was cheap and too powerful for the tank the fish struggled to swim in it, so i removed it with plans to purchase a smaller one in the future. The tank is in my bedroom and neither I or my wife use candles or spray any chemicals in there.

Something interesting that happed about a week and a half ago that might be related. I had a thin layer of diatoms that started appearing in the tank shortly after i introduced the fish. They never got out of control and slowly faded. What i think was hair algae also started to appear at this time along with copepods. Then I woke up one morning a week and a half ago and it was all gone. As of right now, there are only a few very light green spots on the rocks and a bunch of copepods.

I never noticed any odd breathing in the fish or scratching. At this point, I am going to keep the tank empty until Dec 1st which will make 8 weeks fallow. I will most likely add some ammonia every week to keep the bacteria active and continue with my normal maintenance. Is there anything thing else I should do with the tank during this 8 weeks to give me more of a head start?

I have just collected a pair of clowns from a store so I will brief you on the basic quarantine treatment process to illustrate how straight forward and easy this is. Infact you could set something up and have you fish ready by your Dec date.
These two clowns came from a small display at the shop but even though I've seen them multiple times over a few months I will treat them as though they have parasites and infections of various types. The only reason I took these two is because they have been housed together for some time I know that the one is not likely to try and kill the other which often happens with clownfish in pairs.

First step is prepare the water they came in as a dip bath. The reason I am doing this with the water they came in is because the water I will acclimate them to has copper at 2,4ppm and I do not want to mix the dip additive with copper. For the dip additive I am using Ruby Reef Rally Pro, but there are other products to be used such as Methylene blue for example. For the RRRP dip I am mixing 0.8ml of RRRP with 1Ltr of water. The dip will be for 90min. I will float the dip bucket in my QT tank for temp stability during the 90min.

For the QT holding tank I am using a rectangle salt tub, this is a temp setup which already has 6 other small fish in copper treatment, gobies and fire fish. The bigger QT tanks are occupied at the moment. This temp setup has a hang on back filter, a heater and a airstone. The substrate is only there for the gobies and is solid silica not aragonite or similar. Bare bottom is best. This process will last a month and will kill off any Brooklynella, Velvet or Ick whitespace which the clownfish and others may have. They are fed as normal and I do a 20% water change once a week matching the salinity and copper levels. Because it's closed with a lid evaporation is non existent but I check the salinity twice a week to make sure.

That's it, plain and simple. The only thing you need other than a small tub or tank, airstone, heater and hang on back filter is a Hanna high level copper test kit and Coppersafe or Copperpower.

Much easier than having fish die due to various issues regarding health.

Thank you for all the responses. I wanted to add some more information regarding the tank and my setup. My RODI water reads 0 before I mix in salt. The powerhead I was using was cheap and too powerful for the tank the fish struggled to swim in it, so i removed it with plans to purchase a smaller one in the future. The tank is in my bedroom and neither I or my wife use candles or spray any chemicals in there.

Something interesting that happed about a week and a half ago that might be related. I had a thin layer of diatoms that started appearing in the tank shortly after i introduced the fish. They never got out of control and slowly faded. What i think was hair algae also started to appear at this time along with copepods. Then I woke up one morning a week and a half ago and it was all gone. As of right now, there are only a few very light green spots on the rocks and a bunch of copepods.

I never noticed any odd breathing in the fish or scratching. At this point, I am going to keep the tank empty until Dec 1st which will make 8 weeks fallow. I will most likely add some ammonia every week to keep the bacteria active and continue with my normal maintenance. Is there anything thing else I should do with the tank during this 8 weeks to give me more of a head start?

I have just collected a pair of clowns from a store so I will brief you on the basic quarantine treatment process to illustrate how straight forward and easy this is. Infact you could set something up and have you fish ready by your Dec date.

These two clowns came from a small display at the shop but even though I've seen them multiple times over a few months I will treat them as though they have parasites and infections of various types. The only reason I took these two is because they have been housed together for some time I know that the one is not likely to try and kill the other which often happens with clownfish in pairs.

First step is prepare the water they came in as a dip bath. The reason I am doing this with the water they came in is because the water I will acclimate them to has copper at 2,4ppm and I do not want to mix the dip additive with copper. For the dip additive I am using Ruby Reef Rally Pro, but there are other products to be used such as Methylene blue for example. For the RRRP dip I am mixing 0.8ml of RRRP with 1Ltr of water. The dip will be for 90min. I will float the dip bucket in my QT tank for temp stability during the 90min.

For the QT holding tank I am using a rectangle salt tub, this is a temp setup which already has 6 other small fish in copper treatment, gobies and fire fish. The bigger QT tanks are occupied at the moment. This temp setup has a hang on back filter, a heater and a airstone. The substrate is only there for the gobies and is solid silica not aragonite or similar. Bare bottom is best. This process will last a month and will kill off any Brooklynella, Velvet or Ick whitespace which the clownfish and others may have. They are fed as normal and I do a 20% water change once a week matching the salinity and copper levels. Because it's closed with a lid evaporation is non existent but I check the salinity twice a week to make sure.

That's it, plain and simple. The only thing you need other than a small tub or tank, airstone, heater and hang on back filter is a Hanna high level copper test kit and Coppersafe or Copperpower.

Much easier than having fish die due to various issues regarding health.

 

[Duane family]

@tommyiv @luis angel @smitten with ocean life @WalkerLovesTheOcean

Please take 25min to watch this video it will hopefully be of huge benefit to you and your marine fish keeping journey going forward.