Mystery problem

[Kati537]

Hey guys, I've been keeping coral for a while and it's always been pretty smooth sailing for me up until now. I moved to a different city (I don't know if that has anything to do with it, hence the thread name) about 3 years ago and I've been trying to get back into keeping coral and not having much luck. I had a 29 gallon with HOB filters/skimmers and I figured my system just wasn't good enough, so I upgraded to a 75g with a 29g sump (live rock rubble as media), 150int reef octopus skimmer, 4 bulb T5/Orphek bar LED combo (putting out ~150 par towards the top of the tank if I had to guess), and two ~1250gph powerheads moving the water in a circular fashion. I switched from instant ocean to red sea mixed reef salt mix about 6 months ago when upgrading to the 75g. I haven't had any problems with fish but coral do NOT thrive for me in this system. Nothing seems to melt/die right away but rather they either don't grow or very slowly wither away. I had a superman rhodactis mushroom slowly stop expanding for a year before he finally jumped off his rock. I have a few zoa's that either don't like to open or have only grown by 1 or 2 polyps. My green star polyp frag has expanded but only by a few inches over a year or so. Kenya trees and green sinularia are fairly doing well, but no where near the explosive growth i've had with soft corals in the past. I bought a torch and hammer within the past two months and they are still alive, but get just a teeny bit smaller every day (~60% the size that I bought them). I keep thinking that i've figured out the issue and find something to upgrade (most recently I upgraded the powerheads to something much more powerful, with no results). It may be worth noting that I've had ZERO nuisance algae/diatom/cyano problems. I've seen a few dinoflagellates pop up recently, which i'll explain below. I feed my fish frozen (mysid, clam, etc mix) every day and dose my corals with amino acids 2x a week (korallen-zucht). I don't dose anything else as I figure at this stage it would do more harm than good , instead I try to do frequent partial water changes. It may be worth noting my corals are just frags that take up very little tank space, and I'm assuming don't uptake all too much from my water.


So I figure all of my equipment is adequate, and it has to be something to do with my water. Here are my wild theories:


About a month ago I was convinced there was something noxious in the tap water here (DC city area). I upgraded my cheap RO buddy to a 5 step RO/deionizing unit and was able to go from 6 tds to 0 tds (tap water is 150tds). Since then I've done two ~20% water changes. I'm not sure if I should keep going with a few more large water changes, as I can't be certain this was not the issue.

Maybe my skimmer does too good a job. My nitrate and phosphate, in the past, using my cheapo API test kit, has tested close to 0. This is kind of supported by the fact that I'm not seeing nuisance algae (I guess?). Am I starving out my coral? I dose amino acids (probably not as much as I should, and I guess the skimmer can take a lot of them out) should I increase my dosage?

There is some sort of precipitant reaction going on that I'm only just becoming aware of. I see a grey "snow" like matter suspended in the tank, and when I use a turkey baster, I get a TON off of my live rock. My alkalinity/calcium is high (see below) but I didn't think it was unreasonably so. I'm just really unfamiliar with participants and what they mean.

So now on to my parameters. I'd like to add that ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-phosphate has come up as pretty much 0 until today, when I got the idea in my head that it had to be my nitrate was too low and I needed to boost it by feeding heavily this morning and turning down my skimmer.

Temperature 78
salinity 1.0255
alkalinity 11.2 dKH
pH 8.2
calcium ~500-520
ammonia ~0-0.25 (usually 0)
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
phosphate 0.05-0.015 (usually closer to 0)

I do not own a magnesium or potassium test but if I had to guess I'd say it's around the salt mixes parameters of 1350 for magnesium and 390 for potassium. Although somehow my calcium has seemed to have crept up so maybe I can't make this assumption...

Does anyone have any ideas of what I'm doing wrong? Even if you aren't certain, I'd appreciate hearing new perspectives and maybe I can find an avenue I haven't explored yet.

 

[Rp8]

Salinity is low dont know if that was an error. 1.026 is an optimal range. That might be some of the problem

 

[Kati537]

Salinity is low dont know if that was an error. 1.026 is an optimal range. That might be some of the problem

That was an error on my part, thanks! I edited the post. My salinity was at 1.026 and i’ve been trying to bring it to 1.025 so it’s at 1.0255 now. Maybe i’ll keep it at that point for now

 

[Nano sapiens]

Sorry to hear about the lack of coral success, especially after 3 years.

Couple things stick out to me:

1. Definitely need to bring the calcium down as high levels like that can lead to precipitation events (anywhere between 400-460 ppm is fine).

2. Alkalinity is a bit high, too (somewhere between 8-10 dKh would be better).

3. Strongly suggest purchasing a magnesium test kit and maintain a level between 1300 and 1400 ppm (proper levels help to deter precipitation of calcium carbonate).

4. Did you start this 75g with dry rock and/or dry sand? I've seen a few threads very similar to yours in the last year or two and often the reef system is lacking in the many bacteria species that help define a 'mature' system which lead to a better chance of success with corals.

5. Undetectable (aka '0') PO4 and NO3 is not a good thing in a system that has very little coral or other organisms (indicates a true starvation scenario, not just a situation where nutrients are being consumed so rapidly that the water column shows 'undetectable' levels). How many fish and what kind? Depending on what you have, possibly more fish or feed the ones you have more often.

6. For increasing nutrients when running a skimmer, many people run their skimmer just at night (helps with oxygenation). Some turn off/remove their skimmer completely when trying to increase nutrients (a skimmer is an aid, but is not essential to running a reef aquarium).

BTW - The size of a reef system is not an indicator of the likelihood of success. Just that greatly different sized systems require a somewhat different approach to maintenance and such.

Remember to make changes slowly and constantly take an assessment as to how things are progressing (a log book is very helpful to record parameters and jot down comments).

Hope that helps

 

[Roachbeef19]

What sapient said makes sense. Also might wanna try phytoplankton dosing. I just started doing my tank and I notice my corals and anemone look amazing the next day. Might be something to look into

 

[Tiki Reef Joshua]

Alk and calcium are too high. Check your par. 1.025 is fine. Get your nitrate up stat. The corals will grow.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, that calcium is not concern. 400-550 ppm is fine.

The tendency for it to cause precipitation of calcium carbonate (at 520 ppm compared to 420 ppm) is exactly the same as a 0.09 pH unit increase in pH. Not that significant, IMO.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Alk is a bit high. Not doubting the results of API tests but I would suggest taking a water sample to a trusted LFS and have them test water for you to verify the results and to compare with yours

 

[Kati537]

Thanks for taking the time to help me out guys. I use red sea coral pro salt mix for mixed reefs. This salt mix has pretty high levels: KH - 11-12°dKH, Ca - 435 - 465 mg/l, Mg 1310 - 1390 mg/l. I picked this mix in hopes that biweekly water changes would replenish my levels, and I could avoid dosing the tank. Do you think I should switch salt mixes? It seems if I want to get rid of precipitants I might need to.

I’m definitely going to try adding more nutrients to the tank and see how that works. I’m debating my two options, decreasing skimming or increasing feeding. I’m not sure if I would turn down my skimmer or put it on a timer. I’ve heard that timers can be rough on the AC skimmer pumps since they are not designed to start/stop regularly. But if I have a happy tank and have to replace the pumps a little more often I guess I can live with that. I’ll also pick up a bottle of phytoplankton and start feeding that along with my usual frozen foods. I’m a little nervous about spiking my levels up too high and harming my fish or feeding an algae bloom, but I guess I can deal with that when it happens.

 

[Acros]

Something else I would look at is the parameters of Red Sea salt when mixed (do not trust what’s on the bucket) vs what your tank parameters were. If you have done a series of water changes with the new salt, Your tank parameters should be closer to the Red Sea salt mix.


Switching salts is a possible culprit here. Your Alk looks too high as well. I wonder if it went above 12 at some point. API test kits are not easy to read and their phosphate sensitivity is garbage. Ideal phosphate levels are 0.003ppm. API test kit read in steps of 0.25, which is useless. I use API only for ammonia and nitrite.

 

[Cory]

Id say you need better lighting and keep no3 and po4 detectable. 150 par at the surface is very low at the bottom. The foggyness is probably caused by the aminos acid stuff your dosing id stop using that for that reason and because you said you seen dinos. Dinos are a disaster if you get them. Your ph looks low and if you can open tbe windows. Low ph will not help calcification.

I had the same problem with low nutrients ,foggy water and dinos and no growth. I added a uv and dinos are gone and the water is crystal clear. And im not using mechanical filtration either! Just a skimmer. Growth is slowly getting better. I think microorganisms are doing a lot more than we realize and i believe they were doing something negative to my tank.

 

[Kati537]

I just looked up some graphs from the orphek website for their bar LED’s, looks like par should be 116-130 at 22.5 inches away (bottom of my tank) and 416-460 at 6 inches away. That doesn’t include the 4 bulb t5 lights.

Does anyone have any advice on which product to use for phosphate removal? I’m thinking phosphates may rise quicker than my nitrates.

I’ll have to invest in a better test kit for nitrate/phosphate. For alkalinity i’ve been using a red sea titration test kit, and API as a back up.

I’m also a little frustrated by my choice of salt mix, that stupid bucket was like $100. I’m not sure if I should toss it and get a new type or get a different one with lower parameters and mix the two.

 

[Cory]

Id keep the salt I dont think its your problem.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I just looked up some graphs from the orphek website for their bar LED’s, looks like par should be 116-130 at 22.5 inches away (bottom of my tank) and 416-460 at 6 inches away. That doesn’t include the 4 bulb t5 lights.

Does anyone have any advice on which product to use for phosphate removal? I’m thinking phosphates may rise quicker than my nitrates.

I’ll have to invest in a better test kit for nitrate/phosphate. For alkalinity i’ve been using a red sea titration test kit, and API as a back up.

I’m also a little frustrated by my choice of salt mix, that stupid bucket was like $100. I’m not sure if I should toss it and get a new type or get a different one with lower parameters and mix the two.

I agree with Orphecs intensity recommendation and run close to that (small mixed reef). A PAR meter (bought or rented out) would be really helpful.

It may be likely that PO4 rises more than NO3, but not for everyone. Just slowly increase feeding until you see detectable levels and then you'll see which one outpaces the other (if you are lucky, they'll rise together so you won't have to add any additional products).

I've been mixing salt for years as there are typically no issues doing so. If you want to bring alkalinity down to say 10'ish, then you can use something like 1/3 Red Sea Blue Bucket (mixes to around 8.0'ish) and your current salt. IME, best practice is to thoroughly mix a salt in it's respective bucket first, then thoroughly mix both together in whatever proportion you want.

 

[Vwluv10338]

I have been looking at switching to a Red Sea salt but probably going for the blue bucket because of the elevated alkalinity of the coral pro. FYI my last batch of Reef Crystals mixed up at 11dkh when I was trying to get mine down to 9 from 10.

I have had two mini tank crashes when my nutrients dropped to zero. I was running a fuge with macro on opposite light schedules and it was too much and it caused my an outbreak of dinos. I had to dose nitrate and phosphate but I also had to upgrade to better tests than the API. I got the Redsea nitrate which is a pain to do but it’s great for low readings. I also got the Hanna ULR Phosphate tester which is also good. I now have Hanna alk but my Red Sea rests the same. I got my numbers up to 5nitrate and .03 phosphate and things were good with my lowered light schedule on the fuge. Two months later it seemed to start taking a downward turn and I test my nitrates again and I was back to 0.25. I only lost a few zoa polyps but it’s clear my issues come when my nutrients drop.

 

[Cory]

Does anyone have any advice on which product to use for phosphate removal? I’m thinking phosphates may rise quicker than my nitrates.

Imo i wouldnt attempt to lower your phosphates because it will bring about a dino explosion. But gfo or rowaphos is good.

 

[Miller535]

I would buy a Triton ICP test kit, especially since you were not using a full RODI for years. This will let you know if there are any contaminants in the tank. I would aim to lower your alk and cal, they are not going to kill your corals, but it's good to get them into a better range say 8dkh and 420 Cal, and keep them there very stable. I would also rent a par meter just to check what you are actually putting out. BRS rents them. I would also invest in some better test kits and make sure you have detectable Nitrates and Phosphates.

 

[KingTideCorals]

I would agree in some of the answers you received about the calcium and alk levels! Id say work on getting those down a bit. As for your salinity I feel you are sitting pretty.

Regardless, know it can be frustrating after not seeing results.. stick with it, this forum/community is here to help and see your success!

 

[Bfragale]

Hello. Sorry your having these issues.

nothing in your post pointed to this: but your story sounds like a friend of mine. He had a beautiful tank and set up but corals would either not Grow or die. long story short: he found a screw that had fallen into his sump and was rusting away. This one little screw caused all his problems. - just food for thought or something to check. -

Personally, I kind of had same issue in the beginning but my tank was young. Things would just not do “well”. They survived but didn’t thrive. After about the 9 months mark I really noticed things looking and growing better. I believe this is due to how “established” the tank was.

good luck and I hope you solve you issue.

happy reefing!