Need help on clownfish

[Aj050]

Last week I lost a clownfish already what looked like stress signs. The other one I have was doing good till now.
Ive added a video and a picture of the fish to see if you guys can help with ID on why my fish are dying or looking like dying.

Tank size is 80 gallons with sump
Tank is up for 3 months, started with dry rock and sand, and been adding Bacteria for the cycle. Currently adding bacteria every 15 days (prodibio biodigest)
Skimmer is a red sea 300, bioblocks in sump, red sea carbon in bag.

Parameters are:
Salinity 1.024
Temp 24.9 celcius
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 15
Phosphate 0.08

The other fish that unfortunately died last week was loosing colours rapidly, and it looked like it died a night.

 

[fishguy242]

@Jay Hemdal #reefsquad

 

[Reefahholic]

I can’t see the pics well or the video. However, clownfish typically have two specific parasites a lot more frequently than others. One being Brooklynella and the other is Uronema.

You can get on my YouTube and go to the disease section and see what both parasites look like.

 

[Aj050]

Sorry to say my clown actually died just 25 min ago.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello,

Your water tests seem fine. I watched the video - yes, the clownfish does look like it is in distress; it is swimming in a agitated manner, and its fins are folded in the still images. However, I cannot see any symptoms other than that. Do you have any invertebrates in the tank, or other fish? If so, how do they look? If there is nothing but this single clownfish, then I would have to think there is a disease issue, but I just do not see any symptoms that would point us in the right direction in regards to a possible treatment. I presume the clownfish isn't eating? Does it seem to be breathing rapidly?

Thanks,

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to say my clown actually died just 25 min ago.

Sorry to hear - I was working on my reply as that happened...

So now, you need to think about "damage control". The same questions I asked still apply, you don't want the issue to affect other animals or any new fish. I would of course suggest that your quarantine all new fish for your aquarium. That isn't a 100% solution to these sorts of issues, but it does help.

Jay

 

[Aj050]

It did eat till today. I feed mysis, Artemia and Hikari Pallets S.
No other fish or living animals in the tank. Breathing was heavy ad mostly in the top half off the tank.

 

[Aj050]

Sorry to hear - I was working on my reply as that happened...

So now, you need to think about "damage control". The same questions I asked still apply, you don't want the issue to affect other animals or any new fish. I would of course suggest that your quarantine all new fish for your aquarium. That isn't a 100% solution to these sorts of issues, but it does help.

Jay

I really want to learn from this, it is a hard way to learn, but willing to.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I can’t see the pics well or the video. However, clownfish typically have two specific parasites a lot more frequently than others. One being Brooklynella and the other is Uronema.

You can get on my YouTube and go to the disease section and see what both parasites look like.

Hi, I just watched your video - just one thing - the Asfur angel just has Cryptocaryon, not Crypt and velvet - the way you can tell is that its respiration rate is normal, not elevated as with Amyloodinium.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Bummer and it is worse when you rae trying to figure it out and not afforded the oportunity

 

[Reefahholic]

Hi, I just watched your video - just one thing - the maculosus just has Cryptocaryon, not Crypt and velvet - the way you can tell is that its respiration rate is normal, not elevated as with Amyloodinium.

Jay

Jay, I watch all the fish and see exactly what they have before I make a video on it. Most of the fish l’ve already been watching them for weeks.

Velvet has many different stages and not every stage will show tachypnea. Just like Ich, Brook, and Uronema. You cannot make a diagnosis off respiratory distress alone.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, I watch all the fish and see exactly what they have before I make a video on it. Most of the fish l’ve already been watching them for weeks.

Velvet has many different stages and not every stage will show tachypnea. Just like Ich, Brook, and Uronema. You cannot make a diagnosis off respiratory distress alone.

Sorry, I would STRONGLY disagree with that . In fact, Amyloodinium will often present ONLY as increased respiration in many cases, followed by fish loss. Barring an actual gill biopsy, and using visual clues only, that fish does not have Amyloodinium, just Cryptocaryon. It is really a moot point, as aggressive copper Rx would be the way to go in either case, I just wanted to clarify the visual diagnosis was incorrect in this case.

Jay

 

[Reefahholic]

Sorry, I would STRONGLY disagree with that . In fact, Amyloodinium will often present ONLY as increased respiration in many cases, followed by fish loss. Barring an actual gill biopsy, and using visual clues only, that fish does not have Amyloodinium, just Cryptocaryon. It is really a moot point, as aggressive copper Rx would be the way to go in either case, I just wanted to clarify the visual diagnosis was incorrect in this case.

Jay

I'm sorry sir, but with all due respect... I strongly disagree with your clarification. There's is absolutely no way for you to say 100% sure that this fish was only suffering with Ich. I was there and watched the fish. You were not. There is no way for you to know. Velvet will not "ONLY" present with tachypnea. Velvet has many other stages and signs depending on what part of the life cycle it's currently in. Initially, some fish show very little or ZERO visual signs. Velvet does not ALWAYS kill a fish like you mentioned above. Please show me any documentation for the claims you made. The burden of proof is on you since you made the assertions. Best of luck.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hi, I just watched your video - just one thing - the Asfur angel just has Cryptocaryon, not Crypt and velvet - the way you can tell is that its respiration rate is normal, not elevated as with Amyloodinium.

Jay

This fish is 100% covered in Velvet in this video.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm sorry sir, but with all due respect... I strongly disagree with your clarification. There's is absolutely no way for you to say 100% sure that this fish was only suffering with Ich. I was there and watched the fish. You were not. There is no way for you to know. Velvet will not "ONLY" present with tachypnea. Velvet has many other stages and signs depending on what part of the life cycle it's currently in. Initially, some fish show very little or ZERO visual signs. Velvet does not ALWAYS kill a fish like you mentioned above. Please show me any documentation for the claims you made. The burden of proof is on you since you made the assertions. Best of luck.

Hello,

Respiration rates are a key diagnostic in this case. I've studied rates in aquarium fish for 30+ years. The fish in your video was breathing about 80 BPM, just slightly elevated. With Amyloodinium, severe enough to cause body lesions, the respiration rate would be 150+ BPM. Here is my reference: Hemdal 2019. Breathe Easy – Using Fish Respiration Rates to Determine Relative Stress Levels in Fish. Coral 16(4):104-111

Please see Noga's Fish Disease P. 146 He describes this as primarily a gill disease, with skin lesions being secondary. He then says about skin spots, "...however, this is not a common finding, and fish often die without obvious gross skin lesions." He also says definitive diagnosis can only be made by gill biopsy.

In the landmark paper involving peroxide treatment of Pacific threadfin, Montgomery et-al says, "The primary infection site appears to be in the gills..."

Goemans and Ichinotsubo: "One of the first signs of this disease may be rapid breathing..."

Finally, here is an excerpt from my Aquarium Fish Disease book:

Amyloodinium (a.k.a. marine velvet disease)

Cause
Commonly known as “marine velvet” in hobby parlance, Amyloodinium is caused by a dinoflagellate protozoan that can produce severe epidemics in aquariums. Furthermore, it can infect fishes that are normally more resistant to other marine protozoan diseases (e.g., Cryptocaryon), such as sharks, rays, and eels.

Symptoms
The life cycle of Amyloodinium is very similar to that of Cryptocaryon, as are the possible treatments available, but it has less distinctive early symptoms and can cause fish mortalities much sooner than other protozoan infections—sometimes within 12 hours of the onset of obvious symptoms. This disease begins as an infection of the fish’s gills, and only in advanced cases does it spread to the skin, giving it a “velvety” look. Symptoms include rapid breathing and hovering in the current from pumps.

Beginning aquarists often miss the first symptoms and commonly report, “All my fish suddenly died, but the invertebrates are all fine.” Since invertebrates are typically more sensitive to water-quality issues than fish are, the fact that the fish suddenly died but the invertebrates were unharmed means that water-quality problems can be ruled out. That leaves a fish disease, and Amyloodinium can often be diagnosed without even needing to perform a necropsy on the fish due to the rapidity of the fish loss!

Diagnosis
The key to early diagnosis of Amyloodinium is to monitor the fish’s gill health by taking regular fish respiration rates. This is a simple matter of counting the number of gill beats in one minute for a representative fish in the aquarium and then rechecking the respiration rate every few days to watch for any elevation in that rate.

Newly acquired fish that are not being treated prophylactically should have their respiration rate checked daily, as these fish are the ones at greatest risk of developing this disease. The actual respiration rate is not that important, it is a rise in the rate that must be monitored for.

Different species of fish will respire at different rates. Smaller fish breathe faster than large ones, and fish in warmer water will respire faster as well. Typically, tropical fish will respire between 60 and 120 gill beats per minute. If you can’t view the fish for a full minute, you can try counting for 15 seconds and multiplying the result by four.

Knowing your fish’s normal baseline respiration rate is vital; any rise in that rate above 30% (and not attributable to something else, such as the fish being chased by a tankmate) should be viewed as a possible symptom of this disease.

Treatment
Treatments for Amyloodinium cannot be performed with invertebrates present, yet the entire tank usually needs to be treated in order to eradicate it. Copper sulfate at 0.20 ppm for 14 days is one often-used cure. Chloroquine at 8 to 15 ppm as a 30-day static bath is another treatment that has been used with good success.

Performing a five-minute freshwater dip can buy some time in order to develop a full treatment. Hydrogen peroxide dips and moving the fish to a sterile aquarium has been used in aquaculture. Lowering the tank’s temperature is rarely effective. Likewise, hyposalinity treatments (sometimes recommended for Cryptocaryon treatments) will not work for Amyloodinium.


Jay

 

[Reefahholic]

Hello,

Respiration rates are a key diagnostic in this case. I've studied rates in aquarium fish for 30+ years. The fish in your video was breathing about 80 BPM, just slightly elevated. With Amyloodinium, severe enough to cause body lesions, the respiration rate would be 150+ BPM. Here is my reference: Hemdal 2019. Breathe Easy – Using Fish Respiration Rates to Determine Relative Stress Levels in Fish. Coral 16(4):104-111

Please see Noga's Fish Disease P. 146 He describes this as primarily a gill disease, with skin lesions being secondary. He then says about skin spots, "...however, this is not a common finding, and fish often die without obvious gross skin lesions." He also says definitive diagnosis can only be made by gill biopsy.

In the landmark paper involving peroxide treatment of Pacific threadfin, Montgomery et-al says, "The primary infection site appears to be in the gills..."

Goemans and Ichinotsubo: "One of the first signs of this disease may be rapid breathing..."

Finally, here is an excerpt from my Aquarium Fish Disease book:

Amyloodinium (a.k.a. marine velvet disease)

Cause
Commonly known as “marine velvet” in hobby parlance, Amyloodinium is caused by a dinoflagellate protozoan that can produce severe epidemics in aquariums. Furthermore, it can infect fishes that are normally more resistant to other marine protozoan diseases (e.g., Cryptocaryon), such as sharks, rays, and eels.

Symptoms
The life cycle of Amyloodinium is very similar to that of Cryptocaryon, as are the possible treatments available, but it has less distinctive early symptoms and can cause fish mortalities much sooner than other protozoan infections—sometimes within 12 hours of the onset of obvious symptoms. This disease begins as an infection of the fish’s gills, and only in advanced cases does it spread to the skin, giving it a “velvety” look. Symptoms include rapid breathing and hovering in the current from pumps.

Beginning aquarists often miss the first symptoms and commonly report, “All my fish suddenly died, but the invertebrates are all fine.” Since invertebrates are typically more sensitive to water-quality issues than fish are, the fact that the fish suddenly died but the invertebrates were unharmed means that water-quality problems can be ruled out. That leaves a fish disease, and Amyloodinium can often be diagnosed without even needing to perform a necropsy on the fish due to the rapidity of the fish loss!

Diagnosis
The key to early diagnosis of Amyloodinium is to monitor the fish’s gill health by taking regular fish respiration rates. This is a simple matter of counting the number of gill beats in one minute for a representative fish in the aquarium and then rechecking the respiration rate every few days to watch for any elevation in that rate.

Newly acquired fish that are not being treated prophylactically should have their respiration rate checked daily, as these fish are the ones at greatest risk of developing this disease. The actual respiration rate is not that important, it is a rise in the rate that must be monitored for.

Different species of fish will respire at different rates. Smaller fish breathe faster than large ones, and fish in warmer water will respire faster as well. Typically, tropical fish will respire between 60 and 120 gill beats per minute. If you can’t view the fish for a full minute, you can try counting for 15 seconds and multiplying the result by four.

Knowing your fish’s normal baseline respiration rate is vital; any rise in that rate above 30% (and not attributable to something else, such as the fish being chased by a tankmate) should be viewed as a possible symptom of this disease.

Treatment
Treatments for Amyloodinium cannot be performed with invertebrates present, yet the entire tank usually needs to be treated in order to eradicate it. Copper sulfate at 0.20 ppm for 14 days is one often-used cure. Chloroquine at 8 to 15 ppm as a 30-day static bath is another treatment that has been used with good success.

Performing a five-minute freshwater dip can buy some time in order to develop a full treatment. Hydrogen peroxide dips and moving the fish to a sterile aquarium has been used in aquaculture. Lowering the tank’s temperature is rarely effective. Likewise, hyposalinity treatments (sometimes recommended for Cryptocaryon treatments) will not work for Amyloodinium.


Jay

Respectfully, your googled sources don’t actually support your claims.

We all know that velvet will immediately invade the gills. That’s common knowledge. Rapid breathing (as you listed above...(“MAY BE” one of the first signs), but like I said, you cannot base the diagnosis of velvet or Ich on respiratory rate alone. A proper diagnosis is always determined under a microscope. However, this doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for us know exactly what we’re dealing with if we’ve seen it a thousand times.

I told you that I watched that fish for weeks. That LFS is about 2 minutes from my house and I’ve collected several skin scrapes and gill clippings just to examine them under my scope.

Did you know a fish can have absolute ZERO symptoms of Velvet for 3 weeks? None, Zero, Nothing. Then boom... it’s covered in hundreds of tiny white spots.

A lot of people think of velvet as this mysterious unicorn like disease that appears like a velvet blanket. In various stages it can have a velvet like sheen, but it’s a lot more common to see a fish completely covered in a dust-like powdered sugar appearance. Basically, very tiny little spots. These tiny spots will cover the entire body sometimes appear on the eyes, because the numbers are so heavy.

Remember if you can count it...it’s likely Ich because Ich is a much larger salt-like dot with less numbers. If you cannot count it and the fish is covered, it’s velvet. This is why most fish will die, because in a tiny aquarium the fish is completely overwhelmed with great numbers.

If you go back and look at that fish, you can clearly see it’s Velvet combined with ICH. You can see the larger salt like sprinkles and also the velvet that is completely dusting the fish from tail to head.

Here you go:
Velvet vs Ich


This fish survived quite a long time with repeated dinospore attacks.


Another example of velvet:


Another fish that survived repeated attacks from dinospores.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not sure what you mean about "Google sources" All the reference I showed were from actual print books. The Noga one is key, do you have his book? It is IMO the BEST out there. So - you asked me for references and I supplied a number of them.

Jay

Jay

 

[Reefahholic]

Not sure what you mean about "Google sources" All the reference I showed were from actual print books. The Noga one is key, do you have his book? It is IMO the BEST out there. So - you asked me for references and I supplied a number of them.


Jay

Jay...I’ve read a lot of Mr. Edward Noga’s literature. Look man, I don’t want to get into an argument.

I study fish diseases and have Examined multiple fish under my microscope and spent countless hours searching the fish trying to find what was actually killing the fish over the last several years. I’ve done a lot of skin scrapes, and I’ve snipped off my fair share of fin and gill samples for biopsy. I love playing with fish and helping sick fish survive.

So with that said, I hear a lot of “may be” and “appears to be” in those actual print books that you listed as your definitive evidence to support your claims. The problem is the assertion below is not supported by any literature or study. This is with respect man.

This was your quote:

Sorry, I would STRONGLY disagree with that. In fact, Amyloodinium will often present ONLY as increased respiration in many cases, followed by fish loss.

- the Asfur angel just has Cryptocaryon, not Crypt and velvet - the way you can tell is that its respiration rate is normal, not elevated as with Amyloodinium.

You simply cannot base a Velvet or Ich diagnosis on respiratory rate alone. I’ve been a Respiratory Therapist going on 15 years and have worked at some of the top hospitals in the US, I do know a little something about respiratory rates. Once you get to 80+ it’s almost impossible to count and the patient needs to be and should already be on a monitor. Counting a fishes mouth breathing 80 bpm and trying looking at your watch would be near impossible.

Below is the Asfur Angel you claimed doesn’t have Velvet. The Asfur 100% has Velvet in these pics and in the video I pulled these pics from. This is very clear to see.

Humblefish also agrees with me and I bet if I sent Snorvich a PM he would agree as well, because he basically got me started looking at fish disease and taught me a lot of what I know and still practice today.

Remember Velvet is much smaller than ICH and if you can’t count the spots it’s likely Velvet and if it’s more of a salt sprinkle it’s likely Ich. As you can clearly see above, this is super tiny and it blankets the fish. Angel’s and Tangs are very strong fish and typically tolerate repeated attacks before they finally get beat down. Most fish in these tanks not only deal with one parasite or protozoan, but multiple. Then the open wounds lead to secondary’s.




Here’s HumbleFish’s opinion of the Asfur:

So I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree and I’m fine with that. It’s OK to disagree and people can draw their own conclusions. We all have our own opinions.