Need help with ID

[StickyThwomp]

TL;DR: Splotches on clowns face, what is it and how should it be treated?

Hi All, I finally pulled the trigger on getting some fish, went to the local fish store and brought home two aquacultured clowns. Unfortunately, one of the clowns appears to be in bad shape. I didn't know enough of what to look for in the store to notice if any of this was pre-existing.

My fish has some white splotches on his face. Neither fish is lethargic, both are eating well after the first two days (9 days ago). Both fish appear to be breathing more rapidly than I expected, but they're so small I can barely see gill movement. I chalked this up to stress from the new environment

• Frodo (the smaller of the two) appears to have a fin ripped or rotted off, this was not noticed in the store or when I first brought them home, I didn't know when it happened. As I look at this video now, I see the smaller fish (so far thought in ok condition, may or may not have a "goatee" of the same thing.
• Sam (The larger of the two) rarely dropped its pelvic fins until recently, (clamping?). I first noticed a small blotch of white on his cheek (4 days ago) It was not very defined, and looking around the net I thought it could be the early stages of brook, since it looked like blotchy skin instead of anything attached or growing on him.

Since Ruby Reef Rally Pro was available quicky, and seemed to treat a whole host of things including brook, I thought it a safe bet. I didn't want to subject the fish to harsh medications without a disease id. Since dosing rally pro according to the directions, 3 days ago, the fishs fins appear more extended, which I'm taking as a positive sign, but the facial splotches don't appear to be improving. I now can also make out a bit below his mouth and on his forehead, which weren't there, or weren't pronounced enough to notice before. The splotches appear much more defined now, so I'm questioning the initial assumption of brook. Now it almost looks like something attached or growing (parasites or lymphocytes)

So... Should I continue to treat with Rally Pro since there's at least one positive sign of improvement (Fin extension)? Should I discontinue because this is obviously <insert id here>. Any help appreciated!

 

[vetteguy53081]

TL;DR: Splotches on clowns face, what is it and how should it be treated?

Hi All, I finally pulled the trigger on getting some fish, went to the local fish store and brought home two aquacultured clowns. Unfortunately, one of the clowns appears to be in bad shape. I didn't know enough of what to look for in the store to notice if any of this was pre-existing.

My fish has some white splotches on his face. Neither fish is lethargic, both are eating well after the first two days (9 days ago). Both fish appear to be breathing more rapidly than I expected, but they're so small I can barely see gill movement. I chalked this up to stress from the new environment

• Frodo (the smaller of the two) appears to have a fin ripped or rotted off, this was not noticed in the store or when I first brought them home, I didn't know when it happened. As I look at this video now, I see the smaller fish (so far thought in ok condition, may or may not have a "goatee" of the same thing.
• Sam (The larger of the two) rarely dropped its pelvic fins until recently, (clamping?). I first noticed a small blotch of white on his cheek (4 days ago) It was not very defined, and looking around the net I thought it could be the early stages of brook, since it looked like blotchy skin instead of anything attached or growing on him.

Since Ruby Reef Rally Pro was available quicky, and seemed to treat a whole host of things including brook, I thought it a safe bet. I didn't want to subject the fish to harsh medications without a disease id. Since dosing rally pro according to the directions, 3 days ago, the fishs fins appear more extended, which I'm taking as a positive sign, but the facial splotches don't appear to be improving. I now can also make out a bit below his mouth and on his forehead, which weren't there, or weren't pronounced enough to notice before. The splotches appear much more defined now, so I'm questioning the initial assumption of brook. Now it almost looks like something attached or growing (parasites or lymphocytes)

So... Should I continue to treat with Rally Pro since there's at least one positive sign of improvement (Fin extension)? Should I discontinue because this is obviously <insert id here>. Any help appreciated!

Ruby tally use was a good move as I suspect it as a possible cause to what you have an associated with brooklynella. With brook, the most significant sign is the amount of slime on its body which is noticeable on the fish as this mucus generally starts at the facial area as well as gills and spreads across the body producing lesions as it progresses often confused with ich and can turn into secondary bacteria. Other symptoms will be lethargic behavior, refusing to eat and heavy breathing from the mucus.

 

[StickyThwomp]

Ruby tally use was a good move as I suspect it as a possible cause to what you have an associated with brooklynella.

Thank you for the speedy reply, puts my mind from "oh crap what did I do" to, "okay, I might just need patience to see change"...

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you for the speedy reply, puts my mind from "oh crap what did I do" to, "okay, I might just need patience to see change"...

Ruby Rally takes a couple of days to start working and taking effect. Be sure to remove carbon if any

 

[Jay Hemdal]

TL;DR: Splotches on clowns face, what is it and how should it be treated?

Hi All, I finally pulled the trigger on getting some fish, went to the local fish store and brought home two aquacultured clowns. Unfortunately, one of the clowns appears to be in bad shape. I didn't know enough of what to look for in the store to notice if any of this was pre-existing.

My fish has some white splotches on his face. Neither fish is lethargic, both are eating well after the first two days (9 days ago). Both fish appear to be breathing more rapidly than I expected, but they're so small I can barely see gill movement. I chalked this up to stress from the new environment

• Frodo (the smaller of the two) appears to have a fin ripped or rotted off, this was not noticed in the store or when I first brought them home, I didn't know when it happened. As I look at this video now, I see the smaller fish (so far thought in ok condition, may or may not have a "goatee" of the same thing.
• Sam (The larger of the two) rarely dropped its pelvic fins until recently, (clamping?). I first noticed a small blotch of white on his cheek (4 days ago) It was not very defined, and looking around the net I thought it could be the early stages of brook, since it looked like blotchy skin instead of anything attached or growing on him.

Since Ruby Reef Rally Pro was available quicky, and seemed to treat a whole host of things including brook, I thought it a safe bet. I didn't want to subject the fish to harsh medications without a disease id. Since dosing rally pro according to the directions, 3 days ago, the fishs fins appear more extended, which I'm taking as a positive sign, but the facial splotches don't appear to be improving. I now can also make out a bit below his mouth and on his forehead, which weren't there, or weren't pronounced enough to notice before. The splotches appear much more defined now, so I'm questioning the initial assumption of brook. Now it almost looks like something attached or growing (parasites or lymphocytes)

So... Should I continue to treat with Rally Pro since there's at least one positive sign of improvement (Fin extension)? Should I discontinue because this is obviously <insert id here>. Any help appreciated!

Your clowns may have multiple issues. One thing you need to manage is aggression. Clowns are sly, they won’t fight while you’re watching them. However face damage and ripped fins tell the true story.

 

[StickyThwomp]

Your clowns may have multiple issues. One thing you need to manage is aggression. Clowns are sly, they won’t fight while you’re watching them. However face damage and ripped fins tell the true story.

Thanks Jay, I'll look into some strategies for managing that. I have a second tank if need be but I'd hope there's something a bit more subtle than complete separation. Are you looking at his face and seeing it as evidence of fighting _instead of_ brook? Or just floating aggression as a possibility?

So far they've seemed to get along, I've twice seen the little one do the shakes after the big one lunges near when I first got them but they don't seem to nip at each other. Frodo always darts away, never fights. Fingers crossed that fin was preexisting damage and I'd feel really bad if Sam was that big of a bully.

Thanks again for the help, I see both of you answering questions all over this forum, it's awfully kind. Are they paying you a salary yet? :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[StickyThwomp]

It's a change, but not clearly better or worse, just shifting it looks like. I'm still dosing rally pro, and have now added metroplex/focus to their food according to package instructions. Sam has also had occasional "poop on a string", but not long white strings, so I figured this couldn't hurt in case he had some internal issues as well.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's a change, but not clearly better or worse, just shifting it looks like. I'm still dosing rally pro, and have now added metroplex/focus to their food according to package instructions. Sam has also had occasional "poop on a string", but not long white strings, so I figured this couldn't hurt in case he had some internal issues as well.

I know the package has instructions, but they are wrong. Metronidazole needs to be mixed into food at 1 to 2% by weight. Since they don’t give you an amount of food to use, it simply isn’t going to be correct. You need a gram scale - you can get them on Amazon for around $16

 

[StickyThwomp]

...Since they don’t give you an amount of food to use...

Odd, you're right, it wasn't actually the Metroplex instructions that give you food dosing. Its Garlic guard. SeaChem really wants you to work for it to get accurate dosing :upside-down-face:

• SeaChem MetroPlex is 70% metronidazole, Water dosing states "One level measure (160mg) for every 40L"
• SeaChem Focus says: "Use in combination with medication of choice in a 1:1 ratio by volume"
• SeaChem Garlic Guard says: "Add 1 measure of MetroPlex™ to 1 measure of Focus™ per tablespoon of food. Completely soak this food mix in GarlicGuard™, refrigerate, and feed once or twice daily for 1–2 weeks."
• 1Tbsp Reef Nutrition TDO Chroma Boost X-Small pellets is ~7.3 g

So slap it all together and you've got...
(.7 * .160) / ((2 * .160) + 7.3 == 0.0147 (1.47% Metronidazole by Weight) ... if you ignore the Garlic Guard...

Measuring out the weight of the GarlicGuard needed to "completely soak" 1tbsp of food is an exercise I'll leave for another time...

Thanks for bringing the 1-2% to my attention!

 

[StickyThwomp]

Clowns won't touch the medicated food, and now seem to have only very little interest in their regular food. I'm coming up 7 days of ruby rally pro without any objectively positive effects.

The little guy now also has some white poking out if one of his gills and is breathing heavier than before. Also looks to have some damage of some sort on his white stripe. (Pic attached) I haven't seen him rubbing on anything, so that might be from Sam attacking?

Should I abandon the Brook hypothesis, quit adding rally pro, and switch to something else? I have prazipro, copper power, general cure, meteoplex/focus on hand, but without really having a clear idea of what this is I don't know what's the best approach.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Clowns won't touch the medicated food, and now seem to have only very little interest in their regular food. I'm coming up 7 days of ruby rally pro without any objectively positive effects.

The little guy now also has some white poking out if one of his gills and is breathing heavier than before. Also looks to have some damage of some sort on his white stripe. (Pic attached) I haven't seen him rubbing on anything, so that might be from Sam attacking?

Should I abandon the Brook hypothesis, quit adding rally pro, and switch to something else? I have prazipro, copper power, general cure, meteoplex/focus on hand, but without really having a clear idea of what this is I don't know what's the best approach.

Metro in food is very bitter. It can also cause fish to start shying away from other foods. However, lack of appetite can also be due to disease progression of course.

Metroplex in the water is a better choice than oral dosing by far. They look to be in a hospital tank. The dose you listed above is close to the published dose - add it every other day for 3 treatments. I like to do a 25% water change before the second and third treatments.

 

[StickyThwomp]

Yes, hospital tank so no worries on dosing the water. Thoughts on continuing the reef rally in parallel?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes, hospital tank so no worries on dosing the water. Thoughts on continuing the reef rally in parallel?

I've never combined them, but I don't see any contraindication in their ingredients.

 

[StickyThwomp]

I'm saddened to report Sam didn't make it, after not eating for several days, he migrated to a corner of the tank, stopped moving, and died.

Frodo is in a very similar situation, just looks to be a day or two behind in terms of behavior. I don't think there's anything I can do at this point, given the medication they've received hasn't had any effect, and the only other meds I have (copper) suppress appetite. I think euthanizing him might be the best option assuming he progresses down the same path of symptoms further. Right now it's heavy breathing, staying in the same low flow area at the bottom of the tank, and zero interest in food of any type. The only positive sign is that he's still continuing to actively maintain his upright position.

I've learned a few lessons from this that are hopefully the correct ones to learn:

• I should have had a variety of meds and clove oil on hand, I have no way to know if the delay waiting for treatment had any impact on its effectiveness, and the clove oil because I never want to watch a fish deteriorate like that again.
• I should have followed the quarantine protocols, maybe skipping copper due to not seeing anything suspicious was ill-advised.
• Pets dying sucks... These were the first pets of my adult life.
• Don't get attached/name your fish until they're out of quarantine.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm saddened to report Sam didn't make it, after not eating for several days, he migrated to a corner of the tank, stopped moving, and died.

Frodo is in a very similar situation, just looks to be a day or two behind in terms of behavior. I don't think there's anything I can do at this point, given the medication they've received hasn't had any effect, and the only other meds I have (copper) suppress appetite. I think euthanizing him might be the best option assuming he progresses down the same path of symptoms further. Right now it's heavy breathing, staying in the same low flow area at the bottom of the tank, and zero interest in food of any type. The only positive sign is that he's still continuing to actively maintain his upright position.

I've learned a few lessons from this that are hopefully the correct ones to learn:

• I should have had a variety of meds and clove oil on hand, I have no way to know if the delay waiting for treatment had any impact on its effectiveness, and the clove oil because I never want to watch a fish deteriorate like that again.
• I should have followed the quarantine protocols, maybe skipping copper due to not seeing anything suspicious was ill-advised.
• Pets dying sucks... These were the first pets of my adult life.
• Don't get attached/name your fish until they're out of quarantine.

Sorry to hear. I never name my fish, they can die from so many reasons that I just don't want to become attached to them (even though I still feel responsible).

There are two issues that clowns often get that cannot be treated: viral diseases and coccidia. Your fish have/had symptoms that I cannot rule out as being either of those issues.