Need help??

[ahiggins]

@Faygoaddict I agree with the consensus on live rock and heres why:
You dont have enough surface area for the good bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrates SO even though you went through a cycle, the fish most likely produced too much ammonia and overcame your nitrifying bacteria. In essence, you started another cycle and thats why your fish died. You want between 7-15# of live rock in that tank. I have 8# in my 10 gallon but I only have a single small fish. The more fish you put in there, the more surface area you need (live rock) to be able to handle the waste they produce.
The hardier corals will be ok with short bursts of ammonia if worst comes to worst, they wont out right die.
You dont NEED a protein skimmer for a tank that small IMO. but you are heavily stocked for a smaller nano which means more water changes. In my 10 gallon, I have a small 250GPH powerhead and a HOB filter rated for a 35-40 gal tank. You dont need anything fancy for filtration on a tank that small, just some filter floss to catch big particles and some chemipure elite on hand to clear up the water every month or so.
You probably know the freshwater rule of 1" of fish per gallon...think of the saltwater equivalent of 1" of fish per 5 gallons or so. I have a small damsel in my 10 gal, 3 small fish in my 25, and a 2x 4" in my 40.
Starting up saltwater, we have ALL learned by mistakes. Dont let it discourage you. Some of us have lost hundreds (Im sure even thousands at one point) of $ worth of livestock when we make a massive mistake-always always always take it slow. Nothing good ever happens by introducing things too fast.
Good luck :)

 

[AndrewNC]

Yup what iron man said. I would get some porous live rock. That would help out with your filtration. Also one of the big keys that is properly the hardest part of this hobby is to be patient. Especially with such a small tank. For beginners, I would recommend a tank a bit larger. One of the major pet stores I believe still have the $1 per gallon deal. And you can use the 10 gallon as a sump or ato container. Equipment you can usually find others selling for good deals. Especially if you get to know some of your local reef clubs. Always best not to cut corners and just go slowly and buy slowly so the dent isn't too big in your pocket. It's important to test often especially at first and get to know how you tank functions. If you need anything you can always message me and I'll try to help out

 

[ironman20725]

@Faygoaddict I agree with the consensus on live rock and heres why:
You dont have enough surface area for the good bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrates SO even though you went through a cycle, the fish most likely produced too much ammonia and overcame your nitrifying bacteria. In essence, you started another cycle and thats why your fish died. You want between 7-15# of live rock in that tank. I have 8# in my 10 gallon but I only have a single small fish. The more fish you put in there, the more surface area you need (live rock) to be able to handle the waste they produce.
The hardier corals will be ok with short bursts of ammonia if worst comes to worst, they wont out right die.
You dont NEED a protein skimmer for a tank that small IMO. but you are heavily stocked for a smaller nano which means more water changes. In my 10 gallon, I have a small 250GPH powerhead and a HOB filter rated for a 35-40 gal tank. You dont need anything fancy for filtration on a tank that small, just some filter floss to catch big particles and some chemipure elite on hand to clear up the water every month or so.
You probably know the freshwater rule of 1" of fish per gallon...think of the saltwater equivalent of 1" of fish per 5 gallons or so. I have a small damsel in my 10 gal, 3 small fish in my 25, and a 2x 4" in my 40.
Starting up saltwater, we have ALL learned by mistakes. Dont let it discourage you. Some of us have lost hundreds (Im sure even thousands at one point) of $ worth of livestock when we make a massive mistake-always always always take it slow. Nothing good ever happens by introducing things too fast.
Good luck :)

The reason I said he needed a skimmer was because of the bio load h has is such a small tank

 

[ahiggins]

The reason I said he needed a skimmer was because of the bio load h has is such a small tank

I can see why-it would be easier maintenance-wise. Less volume water changes.

 

[Faygoaddict]

Thank you for all of your answers guys! But, I still don't understand why my water turned so cloudy so fast? Should I be worried about it happening again?

 

[ahiggins]

The cloud was most likely a bacterial reaction in response to the ammonia. Or the dead fish. Or both.
If you don't beef up the surface area where bacteria can live, and overstocked your tank...it will for sure happen again.
But every mistake is a potential lesson :) now you know what not to do :)

 

[FishLover01]

I agree with the previous poster that anything can happen quick in a small tank. It's all the more reason to check parameters on a daily basis. You noted that your pH was at 7.4 before the water change which is pretty low for clownfish. You stated after the water change, it was normal which is or should be around 8.2-8.4ppm. It's possible that a big pH swing happened after.the water change. A swing from 7.4 to around the normal range is quite a bit difference. It's just one guess, but I may very well be wrong.

 

[a-mused]

If you've got a leather in there, you're going to need carbon in the filter. The mucus coat of a leather is rather toxic. Leathers in general are one of the more problematic soft corals due to the amount of toxins they put into the water. As the maintainer of a 2gal pico mixed (floss, carbon, GFO, Purigen, ChemiPure Elite) and a 10gal nano mixed (same, plus a skimmer, chaeto, and ATO) that have been up and stable for 2+ years, I'll tell you the secrets to success with these small tanks:

1) Never Leathers. Ever.
2) Never aggressive fish, unless they're the only fish in the tank.
3) Small vertebrate bioload (one goby in the 2gal, and the 10gal has a Helfrish's Dartfish, two barnacle blennies, and two leopard gobies)
4) Lots of porous live rock (3-4lbs in the 2gal and 10-12lbs in the 10gal)
5) Two months of cycling using pure ammonia and a starter bacteria colony of your choice. Smart Start works well for me. YMMV.
6) Top shelf salt. I use Tropic Marin Bio-Actif. You're not going to go through it fast, so using the best is cost effective.
7) ATO. Use an ATO system and you won't be chasing salinity levels, which will also keep your tank residents happy.
8) FLOW!!! My 2gal has the filtration pump and an MP10. The 10gal has the filtration pump and a pair of MP10s (those are on a ReefLink system with the left pump anti-sync'd to the right pump).
9) LIGHT!!! A Kessil A160WE Tuna Blue over the 2gal and an XR15pro (Gen3, also tied to the ReefLink system) over the 10gal.
10) A good sand/rubble bed. If you're going to put in anything that burrows or sifts (shrimp gobies, sand gobies, etc), put the rockwork in first, then add the sand, that way the rock will always be stable.
11) Daily partial water changes. I change out about 1.5qts. on the 2gal and about 1.5gal on the 10gal daily. These tanks are fairly heavily fed on a food-per-gallon basis. Even with great filtration, the water parameters still needs to be kept in check. I use two layers of floss as the top layer of InTank media baskets. I change the top floss pad out every two or three days and both pads get changed out during the large water change. This *immensely* helps keep nitrates in check.
12) One large water change per week. About 1.5gal on the 2gal tank and 5 gal on the 10gal tank.
13) TESTING!!!! I test both tanks every other day. Salinity, Alkalinity, Phosphate, Calcium, Magnesium, Nitrate. I use an app on my iPad to keep it all tracked. Always test at the same time of day.
14) Don't Chase pH. Seriously. Let the pH be what it's going to be. Soon as you start trying to chase it, the system is going to be out of balance almost constantly.
15) Pick parameters and keep them. I let the salt dictate the parameters. I mix to 1.025SG. That gives me about 7.75dKH Alk, 1350 Mg., and 480 Ca. I aim to keep Phosphates below 0.06ppm (Hanna Checker), and Nitrates below 10 (API test) - ideally around 2-3ppm. Alk is also measured with a Hanna Checker. I find the Salifert Mg test kit to be good. API tests are sufficient for everything else. Use a good refractometer to test the SG of the water and calibrate it weekly with a good 35ppt/1.026 calibration solution. Never calibrate to RO water. Any defects in the prism (and since you're not spending $1000+ on the refractometer, there *are* defects in the prism) will magnify reading errors once you get up into the 1.025+/- range. If you calibrate to 35ppt/1.026, any defects will not alter the accuracy of where you want your salt mix to be.
16) A reasonable CuC. The 2gal has one emerald crab and one Astrea snail. The 10gal has 2 Astrea snails, 2 emerald crabs, and a peppermint shrimp. If you get additional CuC members from your live rock, so much the better. The 2gal ended up with spaghetti worms and another type, both are excellent. The 10gal came with white bristle worms, also excellent. Keep a sharp eye out for undesirable hitchhikers though!
17) Pods, pods, pods and good phytoplankton. I'm a fan of Algae Barn's 16oz. 5280 pods and their phytoplankton in the 8oz size. I add one bag of pods per month, proportionally split between the tanks and the phytoplankton as directed. Zooplankton are added via Tropic Marin's Zootonic. A little goes a very long way in these small systems.

I'll tell you straight up that smaller tanks require a LOT more work and dedication than a larger tank. When stuff starts going wrong, it goes wrong *FAST*. Both tanks are AIO systems. The 2gal is a Fluval Spec II, that I wouldn't recommend using - that is slated for a replacement in the next 6 months due to excessive salt creep. The 10gal is an InnovativeMarine Nuvo Fusion 10. Great tank. Love it. Little to no salt creep. Kicking around the idea of getting their 25 Lagoon.

Patience, dedication, time, testing, and maintenance are absolute keys to successful pico and nano reefs along with reasonable bioloads. You can't use the same 1" per gallon rule that you would in freshwater. It just doesn't work out that way in salt.

Good luck with it and don't forget to enjoy them while you're taking care of them!

 

[ironman20725]

If you've got a leather in there, you're going to need carbon in the filter. The mucus coat of a leather is rather toxic. Leathers in general are one of the more problematic soft corals due to the amount of toxins they put into the water. As the maintainer of a 2gal pico mixed (floss, carbon, GFO, Purigen, ChemiPure Elite) and a 10gal nano mixed (same, plus a skimmer, chaeto, and ATO) that have been up and stable for 2+ years, I'll tell you the secrets to success with these small tanks:

1) Never Leathers. Ever.
2) Never aggressive fish, unless they're the only fish in the tank.
3) Small vertebrate bioload (one goby in the 2gal, and the 10gal has a Helfrish's Dartfish, two barnacle blennies, and two leopard gobies)
4) Lots of porous live rock (3-4lbs in the 2gal and 10-12lbs in the 10gal)
5) Two months of cycling using pure ammonia and a starter bacteria colony of your choice. Smart Start works well for me. YMMV.
6) Top shelf salt. I use Tropic Marin Bio-Actif. You're not going to go through it fast, so using the best is cost effective.
7) ATO. Use an ATO system and you won't be chasing salinity levels, which will also keep your tank residents happy.
8) FLOW!!! My 2gal has the filtration pump and an MP10. The 10gal has the filtration pump and a pair of MP10s (those are on a ReefLink system with the left pump anti-sync'd to the right pump).
9) LIGHT!!! A Kessil A160WE Tuna Blue over the 2gal and an XR15pro (Gen3, also tied to the ReefLink system) over the 10gal.
10) A good sand/rubble bed. If you're going to put in anything that burrows or sifts (shrimp gobies, sand gobies, etc), put the rockwork in first, then add the sand, that way the rock will always be stable.
11) Daily partial water changes. I change out about 1.5qts. on the 2gal and about 1.5gal on the 10gal daily. These tanks are fairly heavily fed on a food-per-gallon basis. Even with great filtration, the water parameters still needs to be kept in check. I use two layers of floss as the top layer of InTank media baskets. I change the top floss pad out every two or three days and both pads get changed out during the large water change. This *immensely* helps keep nitrates in check.
12) One large water change per week. About 1.5gal on the 2gal tank and 5 gal on the 10gal tank.
13) TESTING!!!! I test both tanks every other day. Salinity, Alkalinity, Phosphate, Calcium, Magnesium, Nitrate. I use an app on my iPad to keep it all tracked. Always test at the same time of day.
14) Don't Chase pH. Seriously. Let the pH be what it's going to be. Soon as you start trying to chase it, the system is going to be out of balance almost constantly.
15) Pick parameters and keep them. I let the salt dictate the parameters. I mix to 1.025SG. That gives me about 7.75dKH Alk, 1350 Mg., and 480 Ca. I aim to keep Phosphates below 0.06ppm (Hanna Checker), and Nitrates below 10 (API test) - ideally around 2-3ppm. Alk is also measured with a Hanna Checker. I find the Salifert Mg test kit to be good. API tests are sufficient for everything else. Use a good refractometer to test the SG of the water and calibrate it weekly with a good 35ppt/1.026 calibration solution. Never calibrate to RO water. Any defects in the prism (and since you're not spending $1000+ on the refractometer, there *are* defects in the prism) will magnify reading errors once you get up into the 1.025+/- range. If you calibrate to 35ppt/1.026, any defects will not alter the accuracy of where you want your salt mix to be.
16) A reasonable CuC. The 2gal has one emerald crab and one Astrea snail. The 10gal has 2 Astrea snails, 2 emerald crabs, and a peppermint shrimp. If you get additional CuC members from your live rock, so much the better. The 2gal ended up with spaghetti worms and another type, both are excellent. The 10gal came with white bristle worms, also excellent. Keep a sharp eye out for undesirable hitchhikers though!
17) Pods, pods, pods and good phytoplankton. I'm a fan of Algae Barn's 16oz. 5280 pods and their phytoplankton in the 8oz size. I add one bag of pods per month, proportionally split between the tanks and the phytoplankton as directed. Zooplankton are added via Tropic Marin's Zootonic. A little goes a very long way in these small systems.

I'll tell you straight up that smaller tanks require a LOT more work and dedication than a larger tank. When stuff starts going wrong, it goes wrong *FAST*. Both tanks are AIO systems. The 2gal is a Fluval Spec II, that I wouldn't recommend using - that is slated for a replacement in the next 6 months due to excessive salt creep. The 10gal is an InnovativeMarine Nuvo Fusion 10. Great tank. Love it. Little to no salt creep. Kicking around the idea of getting their 25 Lagoon.

Patience, dedication, time, testing, and maintenance are absolute keys to successful pico and nano reefs along with reasonable bioloads. You can't use the same 1" per gallon rule that you would in freshwater. It just doesn't work out that way in salt.

Good luck with it and don't forget to enjoy them while you're taking care of them!

This is an excellent guide line!

 

[a-mused]

I'll add that MP10s are all but mandatory on these systems. Or at least any pump that has the motor on the dry side of the tank. There simply isn't enough water to dissipate the heat from a standard powerhead. I've tried pretty much all the major nano/pico powerheads and they all added too much heat into the system during the summer months that it was ridiculous. The filter pump is bad enough. Ideally, you want to control the temperature with a heater and not try to balance a second heat source with a heater. Don't be surprised if you need to run a small fan across the top of the tank in the summer, depending on where the tank is in your home, whether you have A/C, etc. That's another place where the ATO shines - because you're going to be evaporating a LOT more water than you think.

 

[Frop]

The tank has been up for about a month and a half. I can't remember the exact parameters from this morning, but my phwas lower than normal (about 7.4) and my salinity was low. However, after the water change last night both were normal.

Just a heads up your tank is cold right now. Usually it's set to 79-81.

 

[Faygoaddict]

Just a heads up your tank is cold right now. Usually it's set to 79-81.

I've bumped up the temperature and it's been sitting at a good 78-79 for a couple weeks :)