New Additions Dying At High Rate In Mature System

[RMS18]

So I spoke with another vendor today who qt's. He said I can't blame myself or Marine collectors. He said the quality of fish that are coming in are not good. Divers are using poison to catch them more, as supply is declining in some parts. In addition fish are not being shipped as quickly due to the lack of direct flights, so they are spending 3-4 days in transport. He is seeing a much high mortality rate when his shipments come in. Then most are treating the fish under qt which is also stressing them then shipping once they are done. He holds the fish for 30 days min now to make sure they have time to destress. Doesn't cover what happened to the og's. In addition he ships 1.023- 1.024. that should work out well, I'm not sure what marine collectors ship in, they don't have it posted that I could find on their site.

 

[DrZoidburg]

That's what gets me the other fish you already had. Big ammonia burns take a substantial amount, and time. Did you ever dump any of the ship water in your tank?

 

[RMS18]

That's what gets me the other fish you already had. Big ammonia burns take a substantial amount, and time. Did you ever dump any of the ship water in your tank?

Negative, I netted the new fish. I looked over their bodies very well no signs of anything, swelling, marks, color, slime coat. They both were fine the day before death eating well. They died after eating their favorite food at least, loved black worms. I haven't gotten them for the tank in almost a year, they have been hard to find. Since I had new fish coming I bought a bag Incase they were picky. Tank looks great today, everyone looks clam and happy. Rhomboid is exploring all over the tank, swimming in middle of water like she should, checking out nooks and crannies. Possum is clinging to rock work picking off pods. Og's are chill doing their normal stuff.

 

[RMS18]

One thing to be aware of (if you're not already). Fish can handle a drop in salinity very well, but any rise is super stressful. There is a huge issue right now with vendors holding fish at lower salinity, a specific gravity of say, 1.019 (less salt costs for them, may help reduce ich issues) but then, people try to acclimate them up to a reef type specific gravity of 1.025 or so. This much of a rise should not be done in one day - you need to set up a tank with the same salinity as the fish are shipped in, acclimate the new fish to that, and then raise the salinity over three or four days.

Jay

Jay,

After days / weeks of watching the fish i noticed one thing. 4/5 fish are doing loops up and down the tank rather than swimming around calmly. This is a new behavior, after some reading this may just be the fish stressed out. Maybe the recent action in the tank of deaths, my hands in there plus a AEFW issue i'm dealing with leading my hands to be in the tank more are causing this stress? No visible signs on the fish still, no breathing at the surface, and appetite is still good. Thoughts?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ca

Jay,

After days / weeks of watching the fish i noticed one thing. 4/5 fish are doing loops up and down the tank rather than swimming around calmly. This is a new behavior, after some reading this may just be the fish stressed out. Maybe the recent action in the tank of deaths, my hands in there plus a AEFW issue i'm dealing with leading my hands to be in the tank more are causing this stress? No visible signs on the fish still, no breathing at the surface, and appetite is still good. Thoughts?

Can you post a video? I’m having difficulty visualizing what you are describing.
Jay

 

[RMS18]

Ca

Can you post a video? I’m having difficulty visualizing what you are describing.
Jay

I was only able to get two of them doing it. The rhomboid and white tail tang will do this also. At one point all 4 we're doing this. I've never seen my fish do this, normally they just swim around the tank not in circles and up and down on the glass.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I was only able to get two of them doing it. The rhomboid and white tail tang will do this also. At one point all 4 we're doing this. I've never seen my fish do this, normally they just swim around the tank not in circles and up and down on the glass.

That's called "glass surfing". It can be a sign of stress. I can't tell you what the stressor might be though. To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience with this issue because all of my tanks are opaque on the back and sides. You could try draping the areas where the fish are doing with with black plastic.

Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

Snarfing huh. Sometime its either your reflection or theirs as well. Mostly I see this with new fish or aggressive until they figure it out. Maybe they think your closer than you are and its food time.

 

[Kona Diver]

So I spoke with another vendor today who qt's. He said I can't blame myself or Marine collectors. He said the quality of fish that are coming in are not good. Divers are using poison to catch them more, as supply is declining in some parts. In addition fish are not being shipped as quickly due to the lack of direct flights, so they are spending 3-4 days in transport. He is seeing a much high mortality rate when his shipments come in. Then most are treating the fish under qt which is also stressing them then shipping once they are done. He holds the fish for 30 days min now to make sure they have time to destress. Doesn't cover what happened to the og's. In addition he ships 1.023- 1.024. that should work out well, I'm not sure what marine collectors ship in, they don't have it posted that I could find on their site.

Sounds like bull$hit to me tbh. Where did these fish come from?

supply of marine or ornamentals are not declining anywhere. That’s all political jargon not based in reality. Same goes for cyanide. At this point I would be surprised if anyone with the exception of a few places in the Philippines would be using destructive practices as the availability of fine mesh monofilament netting is readily available and superior anyhow. Not to mention the skill set to properly use a net like this has been disseminated worldwide.

most all places have been using proper gear for well over a decade, if not two


bottom line, you should never trust someone else’s procedure to be your firewall for your tanks well-being. You need to have a onsite quarantine setup simply for observation if nothing else.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sounds like bull$hit to me tbh. Where did these fish come from?

supply of marine or ornamentals are not declining anywhere. That’s all political jargon not based in reality. Same goes for cyanide. At this point I would be surprised if anyone with the exception of a few places in the Philippines would be using destructive practices as the availability of fine mesh monofilament netting is readily available and superior anyhow. Not to mention the skill set to properly use a net like this has been disseminated worldwide.

most all places have been using proper gear for well over a decade, if not two


bottom line, you should never trust someone else’s procedure to be your firewall for your tanks well-being. You need to have a onsite quarantine setup simply for observation if nothing else.

That actually isn't true - cyanide is still widely used, and Covid caused massive supply chain disruptions. Shipping delays means longer bag times, higher ammonia, etc. Prices are rising and the quality of fish is lower than I've seen it since the early 1970's.

Here is an excerpt from my fish disease book on the topic:

Cyanide collection
The collection of marine aquarium fishes with sodium cyanide has been well documented and is the primary cause of death in freshly collected marine fish from certain regions. Exporters handling these fish tend to either categorically deny that this practice takes place or just sidestep the issue and say that it doesn’t really harm the fish.

In one unpublished 1983 study, 61% of a group of suspected cyanide-collected fish died within 30 days of their importation. None of the control fish housed in same the aquarium system died, and only 9.1% of the fish originating from more sustainable areas, including Hawaii and Sri Lanka, died during the same time. The sample size was 448 fish, so it was large enough to reveal a general trend.

A similar test undertaken in 2006 showed that 55% of a group of Philippine and Indonesian fish died within 30 days of importation versus 3.1% of the control fish housed in the same system. In a third study, which followed a group of marine fish for 40 days after their arrival, 55.9% of the fish from suspect cyanide collection areas died while only 6.2% of the fish acquired from more sustainable regions and quarantined in the same system (at the same time) died.

There are currently movements afoot that are helping to limit cyanide collection in the Philippines, but the problem seems to continue mostly unabated in Indonesia. There are rumors that cyanide collection is increasing in Vietnam, the Red Sea and the Cook Islands. It is not unknown for dealers to “re-label” their fish as having originated from an area that does not use cyanide. This can happen at any stage of the supply chain, so even your dealer may have been misled.

Areas where marine fish collections are known to be less sustainable

Haiti - Overharvesting of Condylactis anemones is suspected from this country, as well as some dubious transactions involving live rock and mushroom anemones. Transshipped Haitian fish (royal gramma, pygmy angelfish and jawfish) have flooded the US market with cheap, but weak fish for decades.

Hong Kong - The live food fish markets in Hong Kong are notorious for selling fish collected with cyanide for human consumption. The presumption is that their aquarium fish supplies are likewise compromised.

Philippines - The first country to use cyanide to collect marine aquarium fish dating back to the early 1960’s, there has been some recent improvements to the quality of fish from this country. There are still a number of “grade B” fish originating from this country that are handled poorly, and likely still collected with cyanide. These lower quality fish are often smaller in size, are thin and have poor color – but they are cheap. In the past few years, a few exporters have begun to try to clean up the export trade.

Vietnam - A relative newcomer to the marine aquarium trade, there have been some concerns about the quality of fish from this region, especially penned raised seahorses. Rumors indicate that cyanide use may also be prevalent. The secretariat for CITES has identified that this country is unsustainably supplying seahorses in the trade (mostly as dried animals used in Traditional Chinese Medicine - TCM).

Indonesia- Early on, in the 1970’s and early 1980’s, Indonesia was a better-quality option than acquiring cyanide-collected fish from the Philippines. Starting in the mid 1980’s, cyanide collection suddenly became more common, and the quality of their fish quickly dropped. In addition, rumors persist that CITES export documents for corals could be purchased from the government, with no regard to quotas. In 2018, Indonesia halted the export of all stony corals in response to these abuses.

Singapore - Exporters in this area serves mainly as a forwarding agent for fish collected in other regions. The extra handling reduces their thriftiness, and the origins of the fish may include those from known cyanide collection areas. There are a few species collected locally; some clownfish, a few butterflyfish and tasseled filefish. These tend to be sturdier than the non-local fish offered by these exporters.

Solomon Islands -Rumors have it that at least some collectors in this region use cyanide. In 2016, the CITES secretariat has identified that this country is unsustainably harvesting Tridacna clams (most likely for the food trade). This region does seem to have sustainable coral propagation suppliers.

Taiwan - Exporters here often import fish from many other, undocumented regions. Additionally, many fish originating here are collected at a very large size and do not adapt well to captivity, while other smaller animals of the same species from different sources fare better.


Jay

 

[Lavey29]

I sent you a PM since I have had similar occurrences with the same vendor.

 

[Kona Diver]

That actually isn't true - cyanide is still widely used, and Covid caused massive supply chain disruptions. Shipping delays means longer bag times, higher ammonia, etc. Prices are rising and the quality of fish is lower than I've seen it since the early 1970's.

Here is an excerpt from my fish disease book on the topic:

Cyanide collection
The collection of marine aquarium fishes with sodium cyanide has been well documented and is the primary cause of death in freshly collected marine fish from certain regions. Exporters handling these fish tend to either categorically deny that this practice takes place or just sidestep the issue and say that it doesn’t really harm the fish.

In one unpublished 1983 study, 61% of a group of suspected cyanide-collected fish died within 30 days of their importation. None of the control fish housed in same the aquarium system died, and only 9.1% of the fish originating from more sustainable areas, including Hawaii and Sri Lanka, died during the same time. The sample size was 448 fish, so it was large enough to reveal a general trend.

A similar test undertaken in 2006 showed that 55% of a group of Philippine and Indonesian fish died within 30 days of importation versus 3.1% of the control fish housed in the same system. In a third study, which followed a group of marine fish for 40 days after their arrival, 55.9% of the fish from suspect cyanide collection areas died while only 6.2% of the fish acquired from more sustainable regions and quarantined in the same system (at the same time) died.

There are currently movements afoot that are helping to limit cyanide collection in the Philippines, but the problem seems to continue mostly unabated in Indonesia. There are rumors that cyanide collection is increasing in Vietnam, the Red Sea and the Cook Islands. It is not unknown for dealers to “re-label” their fish as having originated from an area that does not use cyanide. This can happen at any stage of the supply chain, so even your dealer may have been misled.

Areas where marine fish collections are known to be less sustainable

Haiti - Overharvesting of Condylactis anemones is suspected from this country, as well as some dubious transactions involving live rock and mushroom anemones. Transshipped Haitian fish (royal gramma, pygmy angelfish and jawfish) have flooded the US market with cheap, but weak fish for decades.

Hong Kong - The live food fish markets in Hong Kong are notorious for selling fish collected with cyanide for human consumption. The presumption is that their aquarium fish supplies are likewise compromised.

Philippines - The first country to use cyanide to collect marine aquarium fish dating back to the early 1960’s, there has been some recent improvements to the quality of fish from this country. There are still a number of “grade B” fish originating from this country that are handled poorly, and likely still collected with cyanide. These lower quality fish are often smaller in size, are thin and have poor color – but they are cheap. In the past few years, a few exporters have begun to try to clean up the export trade.

Vietnam - A relative newcomer to the marine aquarium trade, there have been some concerns about the quality of fish from this region, especially penned raised seahorses. Rumors indicate that cyanide use may also be prevalent. The secretariat for CITES has identified that this country is unsustainably supplying seahorses in the trade (mostly as dried animals used in Traditional Chinese Medicine - TCM).

Indonesia- Early on, in the 1970’s and early 1980’s, Indonesia was a better-quality option than acquiring cyanide-collected fish from the Philippines. Starting in the mid 1980’s, cyanide collection suddenly became more common, and the quality of their fish quickly dropped. In addition, rumors persist that CITES export documents for corals could be purchased from the government, with no regard to quotas. In 2018, Indonesia halted the export of all stony corals in response to these abuses.

Singapore - Exporters in this area serves mainly as a forwarding agent for fish collected in other regions. The extra handling reduces their thriftiness, and the origins of the fish may include those from known cyanide collection areas. There are a few species collected locally; some clownfish, a few butterflyfish and tasseled filefish. These tend to be sturdier than the non-local fish offered by these exporters.

Solomon Islands -Rumors have it that at least some collectors in this region use cyanide. In 2016, the CITES secretariat has identified that this country is unsustainably harvesting Tridacna clams (most likely for the food trade). This region does seem to have sustainable coral propagation suppliers.

Taiwan - Exporters here often import fish from many other, undocumented regions. Additionally, many fish originating here are collected at a very large size and do not adapt well to captivity, while other smaller animals of the same species from different sources fare better.


Jay

My main point is regarding the decline in fish populations causing any of the alleged problems. It’s not a resource issue.
Did I say it couldn’t be supply chain issues? No I didn’t. Two issues are being conflated into one. I merely commented on the practicality of it being cyanide UNLESS the fish were collected where? the Philippines. More than likely, the fish ARE wobbly because of supply chain issues over seas, or issues at the supplier here in the US. My main gripe is questionable suppliers nationally or abroad, suggesting this so-called perilous situation with fish populations declining, driving destructive fishing practices which IS NOT true. That’s a throw-away excuse

with all due respect on the rest of your comment, I’m already informed . I’m in the trade…have been for a long time. I’ve worked/trained fisherman in different regions of the world….some places you mentioned. I’ve imported, exported etc etc.
My main expertise is the capture of marine fish, holding, and export.

A lot of information that is out there is garbage
Some is true, some is half true, some is out right gossip and hearsay. Have a nice evening Jay

 

[RMS18]

That's called "glass surfing". It can be a sign of stress. I can't tell you what the stressor might be though. To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience with this issue because all of my tanks are opaque on the back and sides. You could try draping the areas where the fish are doing with with black plastic.

Jay

Ok, they have never done that before. Feeding time they come to the glass but never do that. I was hiding behind a wall, when they see me they stop and think food is coming. So this behavior is them "alone" the foxface, tang and yellow tail wrasse are og's with me for just over 3 years. The Rhomboid is new, she was also doing this the other day. The butterfly is the only one not doing this.

 

[RMS18]

That's called "glass surfing". It can be a sign of stress. I can't tell you what the stressor might be though. To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience with this issue because all of my tanks are opaque on the back and sides. You could try draping the areas where the fish are doing with with black plastic.

Jay

Btw last week I lost my 3rd og fish, a 6 year old blackcap basslet. He was actually famous, him and I had a article written about venting his swim bladder, it's a sticky somewhere on R2R. And Reefedition did a write up as well. I blocked this loss out of my head, and still in denial. He was my second fish I ever owned, been with me through a lot, always built him a sweet cave in the 4 systems he lived in. http://www.reefedition.com/emergency-fish-operation-venting-swim-bladder/

Thoughts on treating the display with metro? I run UV but just not sure what I may be fighting here.

 

[RMS18]

Sounds like bull$hit to me tbh. Where did these fish come from?

supply of marine or ornamentals are not declining anywhere. That’s all political jargon not based in reality. Same goes for cyanide. At this point I would be surprised if anyone with the exception of a few places in the Philippines would be using destructive practices as the availability of fine mesh monofilament netting is readily available and superior anyhow. Not to mention the skill set to properly use a net like this has been disseminated worldwide.

most all places have been using proper gear for well over a decade, if not two


bottom line, you should never trust someone else’s procedure to be your firewall for your tanks well-being. You need to have a onsite quarantine setup simply for observation if nothing else.

They were bought from Marine Collectors, where around the world they came from I have no idea. I have 6 qt set ups in the attic as I used to do all my qt myself and save sick fish from Petco and a LFS no longer around. I just don't have that time anymore with a 1 year old... Kids come and poof there goes most your time lol, I didn't believe till I had one.

 

[DrZoidburg]

JW thinking a few things here.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Have you lost any fish since oct 25? Sometimes bad bacteria can be there but wont kill fish, and kill others. The basslet i would think can chalk up as old age that is pretty old. I wonder though you said aefw issue. Have you been dosing anything for them? Have you done any icp tests or anything?

 

[RMS18]

Have you lost any fish since oct 25? Sometimes bad bacteria can be there but wont kill fish, and kill others. The basslet i would think can chalk up as old age that is pretty old. I wonder though you said aefw issue. Have you been dosing anything for them? Have you done any icp tests or anything?

The blackcap passed on 10-28 not other losses since then, but at this point in losing a og fish once every 2 weeks... Yes I do have aefw another great task I'm facing in this hobby. I did purge back in may-july but it didn't work. I also dosed KZ FWS but that only reduced their numbers. Next week I'll be cutting all colonies off to start dipping. I did a ICP not to long ago, 4 weeks ago about.. I do them every qtr, chrome was a bit higher than normal but not off the charts, I believe it's from dosing kz coral colors program.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Chrome can be toxic if high enough. I wonder though does any death of fish correlate with a dose of flatworm med, or die off of these?

 

[RMS18]

Chrome can be toxic if high enough. I wonder though does any death of fish correlate with a dose of flatworm med, or die off of these?