New Filtration System for Reef Tanks!!!

[Hermie]

I used the kitty litter a few years ago in an sps dominant tank. It was a take on Miracle Mud, they are very similar as the kitty litter is actually Fullers earth but make sure it's unscented with no additives etc. It does work very well, but if memory serves me right, 50% should be changed every year, please do more research before taking that as Gospel.

hard to find "pure" Fullers earth for a reasonable price IME, it's why I had to go with zeolite instead, Dr. Novak suggested it could work in the same manner (being relatively inert once it's "locked up") and it's supposed to prioritize ammonia anyway... Either way, I still don't quite understand how Zeolites and "selectivity" works... it's a chemistry question that I believe Dr Farley Holmes examined about 15 years ago according to some archived message board posts I found, but nobody needs the info anymore...

 

[Stigigemla]

Mathematically a teaspoon of zeolite in a transport bag would safe the animals there from ammonia in the transport.
But I have not heard of any trader using it. (I dont post animals).
I dont know if it works in the real world.

 

[Hot2na]

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this is a product that is similar to fullers earth ,highly absorbative...guys on the planted tank forums use it alot..

 

[Lasse]

Mathematically a teaspoon of zeolite in a transport bag would safe the animals there from ammonia in the transport.
But I have not heard of any trader using it. (I dont post animals).
I dont know if it works in the real world.

Are you getting old Stig? Do you not remember the large Zeovite discussion back in Sweden 10 years ago. I say at that time and I say it now. Zeolite does not accumulate NH4+ in saltwater. It is an ion exchanger - and the couples in this case is Na+ and NH4+ There is enough of Na+ in saltwater - if any NH4+ will be cached - it will more or less directly released again with the recharging with Na+ ions. The difference between zeolite and bentonite clay is that the clay will absorb organic toxins. Much cat litter is bentonite. Zeolite is a perfect nitrification filter if it is used with a zeolite reactor that will be rinsed once or twice a day. But block NH4+ in saltwater - no. In FW - yes but it will bound so tight and in such small cavities that nitrification bacteria can´t process the NH4 further on. In saltwater - the back and forth movement of NH4+ in zeolite will favor the nitrification because the NH4+ come into solutions in the bio film - the nitrification bacteria can process it further.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Stigigemla]

I remember we didnt have exactly the same opinion then...
In that time or maybe a little before Clinophilite was sold in Sweden as Nollnitrat. It was pure clinophilite as stones of 1 - 2 inches. A pound of these often made wonders in tanks of about 100 gallons. Just a sock somewhere out of sight.

 

[Lasse]

I remember we didnt have exactly the same opinion then...
In that time or maybe a little before Clinophilite was sold in Sweden as Nollnitrat. It was pure clinophilite as stones of 1 - 2 inches. A pound of these often made wonders in tanks of about 100 gallons. Just a sock somewhere out of sight.

Go back and read the thread again - it ended up with both me and said the same. It can´t work the way it is explained - it works - but the suggested pathway is not true. I post a link from 2006 for @Stigigemla - he can read Swedish

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Doctorgori]

I have run a DSB with reversed flow (from bottom and up) for more than 3 years now. For the last 1,5 years - I have done a 15 % WC a couple of days ago - still no crash. When can I expect a crash and why?

Sincerely Lasse

....crashes aren't inevitable, just likely ...we both know you nor me can predict that ... usually mine have been at 5-7yrs so I wouldn't use the 3yr mark as a milestone......I've had a few over the last 30yrs, and always the latest, greatest and last thing usually never is ....
...why do tanks crash? I've never been completely confident as to why my tanks have crashed... I've had good guesses, but....

 

[Stigigemla]

Yes I have read that thread now. And I am still not convinced.
A fact that disturbs me is that the zeolite is so fast in their starting the ammonium uptake.
Common carbon sources is much slower to start depending on that the amount of bacteria must multiply many times.
In the "Nollnitrat" method there was no organic carbon added.

 

[Lasse]

But Stig - They use 30 g zeolite in 30 ml water. Flow rate was 6 ml/minute. The report here description of SIR 600 here The producers says:

SIR-600 can be used to remove modest concentrations of ammonia from waters with TDS in the potable water range (less than 500 ppm TDS).

Test the TDS of saltwater

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Hermie]

Well, I read the Swedish board thread (thanks to Google Translate) and I think I agree mostly with Lasse that the "Zeovite" method would be still successful when the zeolite material is substituted with any other "suitable" host for nitrifying bacteria. However, I think that the advantage of using *clinoptilolite zeolite is that it acts as an ammonium "sponge" and it is meant to be replaced on schedule just like we do with activated carbon. Using the zeolite as an "expendable" is another way to lower nutrient levels (ammonium specifically) to achieve the NSW/ULNS goals...

 

[ramona]

Please - if it possible - take an ICP test on your water now and - let us say - another one after 3 months. It is important to know how much of different compounds that will be released.

I love new thinking, I love when people combine techniques from different fields but sometimes I do not think that the explanations why it work is the right. Most of this "new" approach works - but how and why.

This concept here combine many different reactions - both biological and chemical IMO

Let start with the bacteriological approach. The process refereed to here - NH3/NH4 conversion into N2 with help of NO2 have a name - the anammox process (here is another link). The process relay on a steady supply of NO2 and NH3/NH4 and the final process NH4+ + NO2− → N2 + 2H2O. Is a true anaerobic process. The low oxygen part is in reality a bad nitrification cycle - leaving some NH3/NH4 and produce some NO2 for the rest of the reaction IMO. Both processes are autotrophic. Both processes rely of inorganic carbon and nutrients.


This is not true - facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria switch the source of electron acceptor from O2 to whatever needed very fast - otherwise they should die and as state above - the process is not heterotrophic - it is an autotrophic process

If I look at your construction - it seems like it should work - the outer layer of the basket and substrate can accomplish a partly nitrification - leaving some NH3/NH4 and NO2 for the final N removal - the inner part will be for the anammox bacteria from the phylum planctomycetes and some slow denitrification. The anammox processes have one disadvantage - as most autotrophic bacteria - their growth is very slow. It takes time and probably much more time than 20 - 30 days.

A closer look at your suggested substrate - first the cat litter. Can you use Cat Litter in aquarium - yes some of them. The ones that are of bentonite clay. This clay is know to absorb organic toxins and heavy metals. There is products on the market using this technique - like Easy Life and Happy Life liquid filters

The Sea Chem product - It seems to contain a lot of thing - especially iron. Iron is known to speed up the anammox process.

Here is a fresh water guy explaining some thing that can be useful even for us. I can add that both aluminium and iron can act as PO4 removers and as sinks for PO4

Summary

I do not doubt that anammox works in aquarium, i have no doubt about the benefits of bentonite clay but I´m not clear if the sea chem product can leak any unwanted compound into the aquarium or if it will give us the right amount of many trace element.

Therefore - if you are able to take an ICP test now and after three months another one - or anyone else setting up this system could do that - we can get a lot of valuable information. Thank you for posting this thread. This is one supplier of ICP tests - there are more brands

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, is this one you are talking about?

Any benefit to put it in a small mesh bag in the sump?
Thank you!

 

[ramona]

Picture didn't show up; use this link:

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[Lasse]

Lasse, is this one you are talking about?

Any benefit to put it in a small mesh bag in the sump?
Thank you!

I can´t follow your link but I was refereeing to the first posrt in the thread - Quoted below

I would like to introduce a new filtration system to the hobby. It's very inexpensive, easy to make and is very effective at reducing ammonia from the aquarium. Let us start this thread with typical information and methods in our hobby, a conventional biological filter:

Fish continuously excrete ammonia which is toxic to them, and so it has to be removed from the pond water before it can cause them harm. We all know this. Any well designed conventional biological filter system will be effective at taking this ammonia and converting it, first into nitrite, and then into nitrate by a process called the “nitrogen cycle”. This is also well known. Having achieved the conversion of ammonia into nitrate, the task of a conventional biological filter is complete. No further biological action to remove the nitrate takes place and so the level of nitrate in the water slowly rises. Nitrate is a plant fertilizer. A rising level of nitrates will encourage blanket weed and the kind of algae that turns water and rocks green. Water changes will help but, even after a 10% water change, the nitrate level will still be 90% of the original value, and, as more ammonia is converted, the nitrate level will soon begin rising again.


Now lets talk about an alternative method to the nitrogen cycle:

The Anoxic filtration system was designed and developed over many years by Dr Kevin Novak PhD. The anoxic system doesn’t rely on converting ammonia to nitrite and then into nitrate. With the Anoxic system, ammonia is converted directly to nitrogen gas which is a safe method of exporting from our aquariums.

So what is an Anoxic filter?

The biological information behind an Anoxic filter is basically a home for facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria. Facultative bacteria can function in either an aerobic or in an anaerobic environment. The filter system works as a network of never clogging negatively charged sites in baskets that are coined, biocenosis-clarification-baskets.

A biocenosis-clarification basket is composed of three simple items:

1. A plastic pond basket with holes on all sides
2. cat litter but it must be clay, non-clumping, and preferably without odor control (“Special Kitty” Cat Litter available at WalMart for about $4 for a 25lb bag works well)
3. flourite red by seachem

Fill the basket half full with cat litter, place 1/4" layer of flourite and then fill the remaining area with cat litter.
The time frame for facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria to develop and effectively work to reduce ammonia in our aquariums is 45 days.

Be sure to provide adequate flow (not forced with pumps or powerheads) around all sides of the basket (including the bottom) as the bacteria will "draw" ammonia into the basket like a magnet.

My personal experience is simply amazing, my new reef tank went from an amazon of green algae to peach fuzz of brownish "hair".
The hair algae in my refugium literally disintegrated into white sludge.......and.......I have not done a water change in four months.

I'm sure there will be plenty of questions, don't hesitate to ask!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I answered before your edit

No - I am refereeing to the calcium bentonite clay. The one you link to will probably clog directly. I was unclear when I talk about cat litter - there is different types of bentonite as I understand it now - the one that clog (sodium bentonite) and the one that absorb toxins - calcium bentonite. But I have never use them (I use Easy life and/or Happy life but not granulated bentonite clay. I was only given comments from a theoretical point of view

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ramona]

How do you use Easy life/Happy life? Sorry for a novice question.

 

[Lasse]

Not on a regular base. I use it if I suspect to much toxins. I have used it twice in this aquarium. At least it calm me down

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ramona]

Thank you

 

[GeoSquid]

I wonder if the Laterite or flourite red by seachem is only useful for freshwater plants. Could this work with just the cat litter of some other matrix in the middle like zeolite media?

 

[Hermie]

I wonder if the Laterite or flourite red by seachem is only useful for freshwater plants. Could this work with just the cat litter of some other matrix in the middle like zeolite media?

the purpose of the laterite is to provide iron to the bacteria in the core of the basket, so there would need to be some source of iron if laterite is not used

 

[Lasse]

I wonder if the Laterite or flourite red by seachem is only useful for freshwater plants. Could this work with just the cat litter of some other matrix in the middle like zeolite media?

the purpose of the laterite is to provide iron to the bacteria in the core of the basket, so there would need to be some source of iron if laterite is not used

As I understand - an iron source is very important for the growth of anammox bacteria. I do not know if GFO (iron based) media mixed together with the other media could work. I do not either know if a under gravel filter with normal or reversed flow there GFO or another iron sources is mixed in the gravel is a good idea or not. I do not either know if a coral system with no NH3/NH4 will work either. I understand FW aquarist that will defeat NH3/NH4 because they believe it trigger alga outbreaks but the zooxanthellae in corals is an algae. We maybe need some free NH3/NH4 for coral health. But for sure - the original idea in this thread is worth testing. Using calcium bentonite clay may help in detoxification of organic toxins too if there is a slow flow through it.

@Big Daddy Reefer - do you have more experiences?

Sincerely Lasse