New Filtration System for Reef Tanks!!!

[Big Daddy Reefer]

To the contrary it’s very well documented about a corals ability to uptake ammonia (preferred) and nitrate along with amino acids. I would run it through a canister but at an extremely low flow rate.

Coral nutrient uptake article:

Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?

Corals are animals that form close mutualistic associations with endosymbiotic photosynthetic algae of the genus Symbiodinium. Together they provide t…

www.sciencedirect.com

You’ll be the first to know if my coral parish

Why would you run it through a canister?

 

[ZaneTer]

You’ll be the first to know if my coral parish

Why would you run it through a canister?

Purely so that I can control the flow rate through it. There is no other reason.

 

[ZaneTer]

Sorry, double post

 

[Big Daddy Reefer]

Let you

Purely so that I can control the flow rate through it. There is no other reason.

Let me know how that works out? If the flow is slow enough it could work possibly. I don’t have a canister laying around so I won’t be experimenting with it. Going to leave my basket in place and let everybody know how it goes.

 

[Hermie]

Please post pictures of your tank before you added the basket and after

Also, if you have parameters that you tested, can you reference those?

I've found very little data on BCS used in reef aquaria...

 

[Hermie]

I was wondering if the anoxic filter could be applied to marine. Prior to reefing I was keeping discus and at the time of my departure from that hobby there were many beginning to experiment with this method for discus.

What I was wondering was if there were any elements from the kitty litter or iron from the laterite/fluorite that would build up in the system

Flourite has high aluminum, Seachem used to have the elemental analysis on their website, but they removed it as far as I can tell. It's high in aluminum and iron. Not that iron is a bad thing necessarily, just those are the two highest elements by far. I don't know if Flourite has leached aluminum into my tank... never got an ICP test...

But that said, I have a RDSB/RUGF with aragonite and some Seachem Flourite mixed in at the base... my tank is nothing to write home about, just wanted to share that I do have this set up in my tank now.

 

[Big Daddy Reefer]

Flourite has high aluminum, Seachem used to have the elemental analysis on their website, but they removed it as far as I can tell. It's high in aluminum and iron. Not that iron is a bad thing necessarily, just those are the two highest elements by far. I don't know if Flourite has leached aluminum into my tank... never got an ICP test...

But that said, I have a RDSB/RUGF with aragonite and some Seachem Flourite mixed in at the base... my tank is nothing to write home about, just wanted to share that I do have this set up in my tank now.

It’s because you placed it as a sand bed with no plenum, that’s why it’s not performing. The sand bed is typically zero oxygen, says Dr Novak, the bacteria needs a small amount of oxygen. Hence the basket.

 

[Big Daddy Reefer]

Please post pictures of your tank before you added the basket and after

Also, if you have parameters that you tested, can you reference those?

I've found very little data on BCS used in reef aquaria...

Try to understand I was completely embarrassed by my tank, even my seven year old was poking fun at it. Unfortunately I do not have before pictures, my wife and I joke that we should set up the tank again just to document the changes. Take my word for it and it you don’t, YouTube Dr Kevin Novak and watch his small series of videos on fresh water tanks.

I desperately wanted to fix my problem, this was, and is an experiment.

I’ll try to photograph the tank this weekend when I’m back in town.

 

[Hermie]

It’s because you placed it as a sand bed with no plenum, that’s why it’s not performing. The sand bed is typically zero oxygen, says Dr Novak, the bacteria needs a small amount of oxygen. Hence the basket.

I do have a plenum and my nitrates, last time I checked were less than 5ppm... a lot of it gets taken up by algae; either way, I am not trying to discourage you, I have thought about this exact thing for a long time when I first set up my tank; but the thing is... there's no way to test how well your basket is performing IMO unless you have a oxygen probe in the center to be certain that it's an anoxic environment, and even then we don't know how much ammonia is getting processed by the basket...

I wish people did studies on this, the only thing I've seen were studies on "DSB vs not DSB" and it was not promising really

if a BCS can process ammonia OUT of a system before algae can uptake it, that would be great... but since corals require ammonia, nitrates and phosphates in the water column and they do not have ROOTS, they can't get their nutrients the same way that plants do. I am just mentioning this because I am thinking of it now, not that it's the final disputation of BCS in saltwater. I don't mind talking about it more. Someone that knows a good amount on anaerobic bacteria is @Lasse (I think)

 

[Big Daddy Reefer]

I do have a plenum and my nitrates, last time I checked were less than 5ppm... a lot of it gets taken up by algae; either way, I am not trying to discourage you, I have thought about this exact thing for a long time when I first set up my tank; but the thing is... there's no way to test how well your basket is performing IMO unless you have a oxygen probe in the center to be certain that it's an anoxic environment, and even then we don't know how much ammonia is getting processed by the basket...

I wish people did studies on this, the only thing I've seen were studies on "DSB vs not DSB" and it was not promising really

if a BCS can process ammonia OUT of a system before algae can uptake it, that would be great... but since corals require ammonia, nitrates and phosphates in the water column and they do not have ROOTS, they can't get their nutrients the same way that plants do. I am just mentioning this because I am thinking of it now, not that it's the final disputation of BCS in saltwater. I don't mind talking about it more. Someone that knows a good amount on anaerobic bacteria is @Lasse (I think)

That is a very interesting point, you’re completely right about plants and maybe the coral, that much I do not know. What I do know is that my livestock is alive and healthy, my Duncan is growing new heads, algae is gone and I haven’t done a water change since March.

 

[leyan16]

Would this work on an AIO reef tank? Litter and flourite in a media bag? Or in some form of container at the at the back chambers?

 

[Lasse]

Please - if it possible - take an ICP test on your water now and - let us say - another one after 3 months. It is important to know how much of different compounds that will be released.

I love new thinking, I love when people combine techniques from different fields but sometimes I do not think that the explanations why it work is the right. Most of this "new" approach works - but how and why.

This concept here combine many different reactions - both biological and chemical IMO

Let start with the bacteriological approach. The process refereed to here - NH3/NH4 conversion into N2 with help of NO2 have a name - the anammox process (here is another link). The process relay on a steady supply of NO2 and NH3/NH4 and the final process NH4+ + NO2− → N2 + 2H2O. Is a true anaerobic process. The low oxygen part is in reality a bad nitrification cycle - leaving some NH3/NH4 and produce some NO2 for the rest of the reaction IMO. Both processes are autotrophic. Both processes rely of inorganic carbon and nutrients.

The time frame for facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria to develop and effectively work to reduce ammonia in our aquariums is 45 days.

This is not true - facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria switch the source of electron acceptor from O2 to whatever needed very fast - otherwise they should die and as state above - the process is not heterotrophic - it is an autotrophic process

If I look at your construction - it seems like it should work - the outer layer of the basket and substrate can accomplish a partly nitrification - leaving some NH3/NH4 and NO2 for the final N removal - the inner part will be for the anammox bacteria from the phylum planctomycetes and some slow denitrification. The anammox processes have one disadvantage - as most autotrophic bacteria - their growth is very slow. It takes time and probably much more time than 20 - 30 days.

A closer look at your suggested substrate - first the cat litter. Can you use Cat Litter in aquarium - yes some of them. The ones that are of bentonite clay. This clay is know to absorb organic toxins and heavy metals. There is products on the market using this technique - like Easy Life and Happy Life liquid filters

The Sea Chem product - It seems to contain a lot of thing - especially iron. Iron is known to speed up the anammox process.

Here is a fresh water guy explaining some thing that can be useful even for us. I can add that both aluminium and iron can act as PO4 removers and as sinks for PO4

Summary

I do not doubt that anammox works in aquarium, i have no doubt about the benefits of bentonite clay but I´m not clear if the sea chem product can leak any unwanted compound into the aquarium or if it will give us the right amount of many trace element.

Therefore - if you are able to take an ICP test now and after three months another one - or anyone else setting up this system could do that - we can get a lot of valuable information. Thank you for posting this thread. This is one supplier of ICP tests - there are more brands

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reefwiser]

This is similar to the deep sand bed method only simpler for sump setups. It just makes a home for anaerobic bacteria to find a home and remove nitrates and keep them low along with keeping phosphates low. Cheato is fun to watch grow but will not remove as much as bacteria will in a deep bed system. Flow in a canister would have to be really slow as this relies on a non -forced flow-thru of the water to work well.

 

[reefwiser]

Lasse this is really old thinking people used this deep system 30 years ago. Then everyone got infatuated with Wizbang "reactors" so they could spend more money on their aquariums.

 

[reefwiser]

Would this work on an AIO reef tank? Litter and flourite in a media bag? Or in some form of container at the at the back chambers?

You could add a system in one of your back chambers it will take at least 3 months for the bacteria to build up in the clay and laterite.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I would like to introduce a new filtration system to the hobby. It's very inexpensive, easy to make and is very effective at reducing ammonia from the aquarium. Let us start this thread with typical information and methods in our hobby, a conventional biological filter:

Fish continuously excrete ammonia which is toxic to them, and so it has to be removed from the pond water before it can cause them harm. We all know this. Any well designed conventional biological filter system will be effective at taking this ammonia and converting it, first into nitrite, and then into nitrate by a process called the “nitrogen cycle”. This is also well known. Having achieved the conversion of ammonia into nitrate, the task of a conventional biological filter is complete. No further biological action to remove the nitrate takes place and so the level of nitrate in the water slowly rises. Nitrate is a plant fertilizer. A rising level of nitrates will encourage blanket weed and the kind of algae that turns water and rocks green. Water changes will help but, even after a 10% water change, the nitrate level will still be 90% of the original value, and, as more ammonia is converted, the nitrate level will soon begin rising again.


Now lets talk about an alternative method to the nitrogen cycle:

The Anoxic filtration system was designed and developed over many years by Dr Kevin Novak PhD. The anoxic system doesn’t rely on converting ammonia to nitrite and then into nitrate. With the Anoxic system, ammonia is converted directly to nitrogen gas which is a safe method of exporting from our aquariums.

So what is an Anoxic filter?

The biological information behind an Anoxic filter is basically a home for facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria. Facultative bacteria can function in either an aerobic or in an anaerobic environment. The filter system works as a network of never clogging negatively charged sites in baskets that are coined, biocenosis-clarification-baskets.

A biocenosis-clarification basket is composed of three simple items:

1. A plastic pond basket with holes on all sides
2. cat litter but it must be clay, non-clumping, and preferably without odor control (“Special Kitty” Cat Litter available at WalMart for about $4 for a 25lb bag works well)
3. flourite red by seachem

Fill the basket half full with cat litter, place 1/4" layer of flourite and then fill the remaining area with cat litter.
The time frame for facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria to develop and effectively work to reduce ammonia in our aquariums is 45 days.

Be sure to provide adequate flow (not forced with pumps or powerheads) around all sides of the basket (including the bottom) as the bacteria will "draw" ammonia into the basket like a magnet.

My personal experience is simply amazing, my new reef tank went from an amazon of green algae to peach fuzz of brownish "hair".
The hair algae in my refugium literally disintegrated into white sludge.......and.......I have not done a water change in four months.

I'm sure there will be plenty of questions, don't hesitate to ask!

When I started reef keeping October 2017 I set up a wet dry filter with a 5 gallon bucket above the refugium and only use cat litter in the bucket. I was missing a layer of flourite. I didnt add it. Why? Maybe forgot, or hard to get? I do remember after a month or more the wet/dry was more of denitrator, water backed up and overflowed bottom was open on the bucket too. Worked great.

 

[Big Daddy Reefer]

Would this work on an AIO reef tank? Litter and flourite in a media bag? Or in some form of container at the at the back chambers?

Frankly, I do not know if it would work. Dr. Kevin Novak suggests plastic baskets 7" square. If you are willing to experiment, I know all of us would appreciate you posting the results.

 

[Big Daddy Reefer]

Please - if it possible - take an ICP test on your water now and - let us say - another one after 3 months. It is important to know how much of different compounds that will be released.

I love new thinking, I love when people combine techniques from different fields but sometimes I do not think that the explanations why it work is the right. Most of this "new" approach works - but how and why.

This concept here combine many different reactions - both biological and chemical IMO

Let start with the bacteriological approach. The process refereed to here - NH3/NH4 conversion into N2 with help of NO2 have a name - the anammox process (here is another link). The process relay on a steady supply of NO2 and NH3/NH4 and the final process NH4+ + NO2− → N2 + 2H2O. Is a true anaerobic process. The low oxygen part is in reality a bad nitrification cycle - leaving some NH3/NH4 and produce some NO2 for the rest of the reaction IMO. Both processes are autotrophic. Both processes rely of inorganic carbon and nutrients.


This is not true - facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria switch the source of electron acceptor from O2 to whatever needed very fast - otherwise they should die and as state above - the process is not heterotrophic - it is an autotrophic process

If I look at your construction - it seems like it should work - the outer layer of the basket and substrate can accomplish a partly nitrification - leaving some NH3/NH4 and NO2 for the final N removal - the inner part will be for the anammox bacteria from the phylum planctomycetes and some slow denitrification. The anammox processes have one disadvantage - as most autotrophic bacteria - their growth is very slow. It takes time and probably much more time than 20 - 30 days.

A closer look at your suggested substrate - first the cat litter. Can you use Cat Litter in aquarium - yes some of them. The ones that are of bentonite clay. This clay is know to absorb organic toxins and heavy metals. There is products on the market using this technique - like Easy Life and Happy Life liquid filters

The Sea Chem product - It seems to contain a lot of thing - especially iron. Iron is known to speed up the anammox process.

Here is a fresh water guy explaining some thing that can be useful even for us. I can add that both aluminium and iron can act as PO4 removers and as sinks for PO4

Summary

I do not doubt that anammox works in aquarium, i have no doubt about the benefits of bentonite clay but I´m not clear if the sea chem product can leak any unwanted compound into the aquarium or if it will give us the right amount of many trace element.

Therefore - if you are able to take an ICP test now and after three months another one - or anyone else setting up this system could do that - we can get a lot of valuable information. Thank you for posting this thread. This is one supplier of ICP tests - there are more brands

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you for your input. Once I'm back in town, I will test my water to share with everyone.

 

[Lasse]

This is similar to the deep sand bed method only simpler for sump setups. It just makes a home for anaerobic bacteria to find a home and remove nitrates and keep them low along with keeping phosphates low. Cheato is fun to watch grow but will not remove as much as bacteria will in a deep bed system. Flow in a canister would have to be really slow as this relies on a non -forced flow-thru of the water to work well.

I do not think that we can say that this is DSB for sumps. The result may be the same - lower NO3 as rest product. But the biochemical pathways are different IMO. This is a fresh water system from the beginning. Fresh water aquarists believe that free NH3/NH4 will favors micro algae growth and NO2 is highly toxic for fresh water organisms. They need a fast method to take care of the NH3/NH4 and NO2. Maybe this can work in SW too but more observations and experiences is needed.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Big Daddy Reefer]

Might to provide pictures of how you have this set up on your tank. [emoji3]

Building an Anoxic Filter suitable for both indoors and outdoors by: Milos Laznicka

Anoxic Filtration System: Is a biological filtration system using Biocenosis Clarification Baskets to attract positive ions out of the water body.

anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogspot.com

Thank you for posting links and videos. Everything that I've found to date is fresh water related, mostly koi ponds. But, I believe the same problems that plague fresh water applies to saltwater. Should be interesting to see how my reef livestock reacts, so far so good.