New fish loss

[ParrotHead310]

Started adding my first fish and dealing with some loss 24-48hrs after transfer to tank.

First additions: mccosker wrasse x1, purple firefish, yellow head gobi, coral banded shrimp, and a clean-up crew. Drip acclimated for approx. 1hr. Gobi didn't look good from first going in the tank and was dead the next day. All others are still doing well to this date. Parameters: salinity 1.025, ph 8.2, alkalinity 8.9, amonia 0, nitrite 0. All the rest are still doing

2nd additions: banggai x2, royal gramma, tomini tang. Gramma and tank dead on 2nd day. Gramma didn't look great upon transfer. Tang hid but came out a little at night poking at rocks. I was surprised to see him dead the next morning. Brought water sample in to LFS day I purchased these and no issues except for a some nitrates. I water tested after the loss: salinity 1.025, ph 8.2, alkalinity 7.2, ammonia 0, nitrate 5, nitrite 0.2. LFS said the nitrite could be toxic but was surprised there was any. When I tested again nitrite was 0.

3rd addition: LFS gave me a replacement on the royal gramma. Day of transfer parameters: Salinity 1.025, ph 8.2, alkalinity 7.0, ammonia 0, nitrate 1-2, nitrite 0. 48 hours gramma was dead.

Alkalinity is low for a reef tank but I don't have any coral yet and don't think that should impact fish health. I know sometimes fish don't handle the stress well but I've lost about 50% of what I put in. I don't want to add anything else cause I really hate seeing them die. This is my first marine tank. Is this rate of fish loss normal? Thanks

 

[InvaderJim]

A few things that stand out to me are, the fish could already be unhealthy when you get them from your LFS. I always make sure they are acting normal and will take food before I agree to buy anything. Also are you drip acclimating everything? Unless they are sensitive fish or inverts it's usually not necessary and you can use the float method. Drip acclimating allows ammonia to accumulate in the bag/container.

 

[jp_75]

What salinity was water from LFS? Maybe acclimated too quick?

 

[jtf74]

I would recommend quarantining all your fish before adding new ones because once you introduce disease you will be facing an uphill battle. 50% loss is not normal.

Drip acclimation for an hour should be sufficient and I doubt ammonia buildup is the issue there. Was the bag floating in the tank ie the same temperature or did you drip it for an hour outside of the tank and then dump the fish in? If you drip for a long time outside of the tank maybe the water could have dropped temperature significantly during that time. Not sure how much temp difference it would take for such a quick and heavy loss, but since you got your water tested and nothing seems to be that far off that's the only thing I could think of.

jp_75 may have a valid point too. Did you check salinity/temperature of both and make sure they have equaled between bag and tank before releasing.

 

[ParrotHead310]

A few things that stand out to me are, the fish could already be unhealthy when you get them from your LFS. I always make sure they are acting normal and will take food before I agree to buy anything. Also are you drip acclimating everything? Unless they are sensitive fish or inverts it's usually not necessary and you can use the float method. Drip acclimating allows ammonia to accumulate in the bag/container.

Fish were all pretty active in the store watched them for a while. Last gramma had his tail fin a little chewed up. LFS told me to drip acclimate all of them.

 

[ParrotHead310]

What salinity was water from LFS? Maybe acclimated too quick?

Didn't test the salinity of the store water. What kind of swing are we talking that could make a difference?

 

[jp_75]

Most Lfs keep their salinity really low. Even if it’s at 1.020 and let’s say yours at 1.025 it takes time to acclimate. It won’t happen in 30 minutes. It’s pretty big difference.

 

[ParrotHead310]

I would recommend quarantining all your fish before adding new ones because once you introduce disease you will be facing an uphill battle. 50% loss is not normal.

Drip acclimation for an hour should be sufficient and I doubt ammonia buildup is the issue there. Was the bag floating in the tank ie the same temperature or did you drip it for an hour outside of the tank and then dump the fish in? If you drip for a long time outside of the tank maybe the water could have dropped temperature significantly during that time. Not sure how much temp difference it would take for such a quick and heavy loss, but since you got your water tested and nothing seems to be that far off that's the only thing I could think of.

jp_75 may have a valid point too. Did you check salinity/temperature of both and make sure they have equaled between bag and tank before releasing.

I don't have a quarantine tank setup but I suppose it's something I really should invest in. The LFS I'm using gets great reviews prices are higher but state do to having quality stock. They have a 7 day return policy if the fish dies from sickness or disease but I've only been offered 1 replacement. I've also spent over $5K there getting this thing setup. They've been great and very helpful answering all my questions and directing me with the setup.

I floated the bags for a little bit when I first got home to get the temp up cause the ride is 30mins. Then dripped them outside of the tank. Water temp certainly could have dropped while they were acclimating out of the tank not sure by how much. How would I avoid temp drop by acclimating outside of the tank?

 

[davidcalgary29]

I don't have a quarantine tank setup but I suppose it's something I really should invest in. The LFS I'm using gets great reviews prices are higher but state do to having quality stock. They have a 7 day return policy if the fish dies from sickness or disease but I've only been offered 1 replacement. I've also spent over $5K there getting this thing setup. They've been great and very helpful answering all my questions and directing me with the setup.

I floated the bags for a little bit when I first got home to get the temp up cause the ride is 30mins. Then dripped them outside of the tank. Water temp certainly could have dropped while they were acclimating out of the tank not sure by how much. How would I avoid temp drop by acclimating outside of the tank?

You might want to ask the LFS precisely what their water parameters are and what they are dosing in their systems. I do this with every fish that I buy online, and I buy everything online: I don't have a choice, as I'm a ten-hour roundtrip by car to the nearest store. I now buy from four different stores, and they all keep their fish at 1.025. Two of the establishments dose copper and other meds, but none of them at standards that I maintain for my own tanks. So, yes, I have a quarantine tank running.

I'd also ask the LFS for the precise history of the fish that you're buying: where did they get it from, how long have they had it, what's it eating, who are its tankmates, and what observations have been made about behaviour? If you don't get answers, don't buy it. It's your money, and I'm sure you have other options.

 

[MB_Fahrer]

Cyanide collected maybe?

 

[Jedi1199]

I floated the bags for a little bit when I first got home to get the temp up cause the ride is 30mins. Then dripped them outside of the tank. Water temp certainly could have dropped while they were acclimating out of the tank not sure by how much. How would I avoid temp drop by acclimating outside of the tank?

Depending on many variables, the temp could have dropped significantly. I always leave the bags floating in the water. I float them for about 30 mins or so to balance temp, then open them and drain about 2/3 of the store water. then slowly, 1/4 cup at a time, every 15 mins, add in tank water over the next 2 hours. Then pour the fish out of the bag into the net and introduce them to the tank.

 

[ca1ore]

Few observations ....

LFS will regularly keep their fish systems below 1.020 .... one of mine is at 1.015. A one hour drip should be fine to get up to 1.025. Ammonia buildup is only a problem when a fish has been in the bag for a while .... typically for overnight shipping. Unless your LFS is many hundreds of miles away, it’s not an issue for locally sourced fish.

You’ve added a lot of fish in short period of time. How big is your tank? I would suggest slowing down a bit. Yellow head sleeper goby is a tricky fish, they are often already starved by the time you get them. Gramma and tomini may simply have not been healthy to begin with. Latter are often starved also.

Other than salinity and ammonia, no other water quality parameters are likely explanation candidates.

 

[FishTruck]

Didn't test the salinity of the store water. What kind of swing are we talking that could make a difference?

I have had disasters with fish that start at 1.015 - 1.017 bringing them up too fast.

I currently bring them up no faster than .001 per hour for those that start in the 1.020 range.

The ones that come in 1.015 - for me - need a QT and a week or two to bring them up to 1.026.

 

[Tchung23]

I don’t have a qt tank but I usually only add 1-2 new fish a week. Not too many at one time.

Im sure I’ll get ripped for how I do things but. I live quite close to all my lfs so when I get home I place bag in tank get temp up to level. Then while bad is still floating I add 1/4 cup of tank water every 15 minutes until I’ve doubled the volume of water. Then I remove all water from bag and release fish in with no water from bag going into my tank.

So far it has worked for my fish and tank.

 

[Greg P]

LFS said the nitrite could be toxic but was surprised there was any.

Nitrite is NOT toxic to SW fish. That LFS staff member needs a talking to.

Salinity differences may not be the issue, but if it is the case;
In future test the Sg of the LFS water. It's suggested to not raise the salinity for fish by more than 0.003 Sg per day.
If the LFS water is much lower than your's you'll need to at the very least keep the fish in an Observation tank or bucket/tub for an appropriate # of days to match their water to your DT. This of course will require at the very least a heater and thermometer, and air pump w/stone. And a loosely fitting cover.
You'd start off by having the tank/bucket/tub Sg match the LFS so acclimating is simplified, then raise an appropriate amount daily per 24hr period.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

How long between additions?
D

 

[CavalierReef]

Nitrite is NOT toxic to SW fish. That LFS staff member needs a talking to.

Salinity differences may not be the issue, but if it is the case;
In future test the Sg of the LFS water. It's suggested to not raise the salinity for fish by more than 0.003 Sg per day.
If the LFS water is much lower than your's you'll need to at the very least keep the fish in an Observation tank or bucket/tub for an appropriate # of days to match their water to your DT. This of course will require at the very least a heater and thermometer, and air pump w/stone. And a loosely fitting cover.
You'd start off by having the tank/bucket/tub Sg match the LFS so acclimating is simplified, then raise an appropriate amount daily per 24hr period.

This is the first I've heard of NITRITES not being toxic to fish. At certain levels, over time, nitrites are even toxic to humans. Makes sense that at elevated levels they would be toxic to fish as well. His .02 maybe wasn't an issue however.

 

[Greg P]

OK, I'll rephrase it;
Nitrites in our Marine tanks will ALMOST NEVER get high enough to be toxic to Saltwater fish

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php