New Kole Tang, May be sick, Need Help!

[domination2580]

That's most likely a bacterial infection, but it might be secondary to a preexisting worm or parasite infestation. I would FW dip the fish (instructions below) to check for flukes. The FW dip may kill him, but to be quite honest with you I don't except that fish to live much longer anyway. So it's a calculated risk at this point.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes & "Black Ich", Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

Follow this guy. Just curious humblefish doesn't it look like hlle? How do you deduce that?

 

[domination2580]

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

The condition referred to as head and lateral line erosion (HLLE) is different from the above ailments as it is a non-pathogenic ailment. A tang afflicted with HLLE will present with pitting and scarring along its lateral line and on the head. Fading color is also quite common. Like hole-in-the-head disease, HLLE is not very well understood, but it is our experience that it is often related to malnutrition or prolonged exposure to hyposaline conditions. Stray electric current (e.g., from faulty powerheads) is also sometimes believed to be the culprit.

There are many other suspected causes of HLLE, and because the causes are not well understood, effective treatment can be difficult to nail down. Here is what we suggest:

· Insure water quality is high and stable
· Use a supplement for synthetic saltwater such as Kent Marine’s Essential Elements
· Insure a varied and nutritious diet (using a vitamin supplement like Selcon) is being offered
· Reduce the amount of chemical filtration (if any) on the system, especially activated carbon
· Remove any potentially faulty powerheads, heaters or other equipment that could be releasing stray voltage into the aquarium

Frequently HLLE will not lead to death, but rather it will result in disfiguration and, ultimately, discomfort to the animal necessitating euthanasia. If you observe the signs and symptoms, act quickly.

 

[Humblefish]

Follow this guy. Just curious humblefish doesn't it look like hlle? How do you deduce that?

HLLE typically starts localized and then spreads out. It doesn't form splotches on a fish here & there. It also won't usually develop on a fish this quickly (but a bacterial disease will.)

 

[Glasswalker]

At home now, doing freshwater dip now.

 

[4FordFamily]

That's most likely a bacterial infection, but it might be secondary to a preexisting worm or parasite infestation. I would FW dip the fish (instructions below) to check for flukes. The FW dip may kill him, but to be quite honest with you I don't except that fish to live much longer anyway. So it's a calculated risk at this point.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes & "Black Ich", Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

X2 on the dip perhaps killing but it's better than doing nothing.

 

[domination2580]

HLLE typically starts localized and then spreads out. It doesn't form splotches on a fish here & there. It also won't usually develop on a fish this quickly (but a bacterial disease will.)

Thanks for the new info. In trying to help i did some searching on google and that last pic was what it produced

 

[Glasswalker]

Well, he didn't make it... He didn't make it to the fw dip actually... While aerating and heating I watched him. He was laying down, breathing heavy. He moved one last time and laid down again. About 5 min later he twitched and stopped breathing.

At this point fw dip had only been heating for 25 min, and aerating the same... So I put the net in to nudge him, he didn't react. So scooped him up gently and put in fw dip anyway... No reaction at all... I did notice once in fw dip he looked a lot worse...

At this point assuming he is dead, I let the dip runs its course 5 min, to see if it flushes parasites out to help with diagnosis.

No noticeable parasites exited, searched after couldn't find any.

Noticed once I removed him from dip, the white spots were covering open sores, and he looked really bad... He looked perfectly fine yesterday, amazed (and somewhat horrified) that it could progress this far this fast...

Anyway now I'd like to know what I should do next, to ensure the safety of the fox face still in the qt, he is behaving perfectly fine, swimming about and looks fine. Also has been eating much more than the kole.

Here are pics of the kole post-mortem (a bit graphic)

Spoiler: Click for graphic photos and details wrapped in spoiler tag for those who don't want to see

So the wounds were extensive, and the body appeared sunken in places. Also much discoloration, which was not apparent while he was in the tank.

Also when I flipped him to photograph other side, left behind noticeable blood on the paper towel...

What did I miss? Or do wrong? Anything I should have looked for to detect earlier? Or that I should have done differently?

Any help greatly appreciated. And thanks for all your help so far.

Now what's important is to learn from this, and hopefully ensure the health of the other fish in the qt (fox face).

 

[domination2580]

I'm sorry to hear. I tried to help you or as fast as i could. I thought it was hlle but had the thought of bacterial. At least i know how to diagnose better now

 

[Glasswalker]

I'm sorry to hear. I tried to help you or as fast as i could. I thought it was hlle but had the thought of bacterial. At least i know how to diagnose better now

I am very grateful for your help! Judging by how fast this progressed, I doubt even if I had acted an hour or two earlier, if it would have helped.

As I said important thing now is to learn what I can, what I can change or do differently (if anything) and most importantly what I need to do to protect the foxface.

 

[Glasswalker]

So.... Anyone have any suggestions? Is this contagious or anything? Any treatment or preventative measures I should take for the foxface?

Thanks again everyone for your help until this point, just need to make sure the remaining fish is safe.

Also any suggestions for how this could have been prevented or what I should have looked for to detect earlier?

@Humblefish ?

Thanks!

 

[melypr1985]

So.... Anyone have any suggestions? Is this contagious or anything? Any treatment or preventative measures I should take for the foxface?

Thanks again everyone for your help until this point, just need to make sure the remaining fish is safe.

Also any suggestions for how this could have been prevented or what I should have looked for to detect earlier?

@Humblefish ?

Thanks!

It looks to me like some sort of infection. Now from it's speed of attack I'd say there's a good chance it was a gram negative bacteria - they can be fast acting and difficult to treat unless caught very early and hit with kanaplex, metroplex and furan 2 all at once. It's still iffy after that. Now, it may have been prevented in QT since he would still be there today. Though, that would be assuming you saw it early on and reacted quickly to treat. Infections are difficult to deal with since it's hard to know exactly what you have without microscopes and a science background. I'm very sorry for your loss. You did your best.

 

[Glasswalker]

It looks to me like some sort of infection. Now from it's speed of attack I'd say there's a good chance it was a gram negative bacteria - they can be fast acting and difficult to treat unless caught very early and hit with kanaplex, metroplex and furan 2 all at once. It's still iffy after that.
...
Infections are difficult to deal with since it's hard to know exactly what you have without microscopes and a science background. I'm very sorry for your loss. You did your best.

Ok, this is good to know (and while not a happy thought, reassuring to know that there isn't something I could have done to easily save the fish).

Now, it may have been prevented in QT since he would still be there today. Though, that would be assuming you saw it early on and reacted quickly to treat.

Not sure I follow. This WAS in QT... (and as I said the QT still has the foxface in it which I'm now very concerned about). The foxface and kole were purchased together from the same store, and were being quarantined together.

Speaking of which is there anything I should be doing now to protect the foxface? Should I be hitting the QT tank with the cocktail you mention above just in case?

 

[Humblefish]

^^Agree with @melypr1985. The "open sores" description and most recent photos show evidence of a nasty bacterial infection. Attention now turns to the foxface who this fish shared water with. Most likely he is safe from this due to a foxface's thick mucous coat; however dosing Kanaplex might be prudent to kill any free floating bacteria left in the water column.

 

[melypr1985]

Not sure I follow. This WAS in QT... (and as I said the QT still has the foxface in it which I'm now very concerned about). The foxface and kole were purchased together from the same store, and were being quarantined together.

Speaking of which is there anything I should be doing now to protect the foxface? Should I be hitting the QT tank with the cocktail you mention above just in case?

Oh sorry! I misunderstood where they were! lol so then no, not much you could have done here. I'm with humble on the kanaplex suggestion for the foxface too.

 

[Glasswalker]

^^Agree with @melypr1985. The "open sores" description and most recent photos show evidence of a nasty bacterial infection. Attention now turns to the foxface who this fish shared water with. Most likely he is safe from this due to a foxface's thick mucous coat; however dosing Kanaplex might be prudent to kill any free floating bacteria left in the water column.

Ok thanks for that, good to know the foxface has a naturally strong mucous coat which may keep it safe.
Will definitely dose the Kanaplex, unfortunately LFS is closed now, but will get Kanaplex first thing in the morning when they open. (hopefully nothing happens in that timespan)

One question, I have established biofilter in the QT tank, assuming Kanaplex will kill the beneficial bacteria. So since the foxface needs to live in that tank for a bit, what's the protocol there?

I have bottled bacteria, and water conditioner, which I can use in a pinch to keep things in control. Just never dealt with this specific situation before.

Oh sorry! I misunderstood where they were! lol so then no, not much you could have done here. I'm with humble on the kanaplex suggestion for the foxface too.

No worries, simple misunderstanding

Thank you both for your help!

 

[Humblefish]

One question, I have established biofilter in the QT tank, assuming Kanaplex will kill the beneficial bacteria. So since the foxface needs to live in that tank for a bit, what's the protocol there?

It will put a dent in your nitrifying bacteria levels, but they will quickly bounce back. Antibiotics don't remain active in the water for very long.

 

[domination2580]

Humblefish and melpyr have you covered sir. I was gonna say the 3 combo like they did but they beat me to it. Stupid job lol

 

[Glasswalker]

It will put a dent in your nitrifying bacteria levels, but they will quickly bounce back. Antibiotics don't remain active in the water for very long.

Thanks for that. I have conditioner on-hand either way and I'll just test daily to monitor levels just in case.

So this morning I ran out to LFS and picked up Kanaplex. It also says on the bottle to run carbon once the last dose is done. (it says dose once every other day for 3 doses).

There was also an Anemone (RBTA) in the QT tank along with the foxface and kole, so I setup quickly another 10g QT, and transplanted the RBTA to that 10g tank (so it's not exposed to the kanaplex).
I dosed the recommended dosage of Kanaplex (1 scoop per 5g, it's a 30g QT so I put in 6 scoops, mixed first with about 1cup of RODI water, and then slowly poured into the tank oposite side to where the foxface was sleeping).

Foxface still behaving normally last night until lights went out, lights out now, he's sleeping in his normal sleeping spot, and seems to be behaving fine. Told my Wife to observe him for signs of stress today once the lights come back up.

I'll run the course with Kanaplex, and hopefully we've averted any risk for the Foxface.

Now for my next question, which relates to the situation. The RBTA... It shared water too... I know I can't "treat" it, but it's water/rock may have some of the bacteria in it now... So how long should it go fallow in that 10g tank to ensure it's safe before introducing the RBTA to my display?

Thanks again for all your help, never good to lose a fish, but I think this has been a great learning experience at least.