Found dr reef yellow tang breathing on side

[Kzang]

The anthia that scratched yesterday just did again and yawned after

 

[Kzang]

Unfortunately, it passed overnight. I’ll continue to monitor my other fish. Thanks for trying to help

 

[slythy]

This is what I would like to do but I am worried about other parameters. What happens to other parameters like alk, CA, Mg, Ph etc? Can they adjust to these quick?

You will be fine. They are all very secondary. My LFS does zero acclimation, plop and drop method.

Temp and salinity is all that really matters. Ph swing is easier on a fish than ammonia.

I also dont acclimate corals, snails or crabs at all. Corals I dip in tank water with the dip and then glue them in.

 

[Kzang]

It’s ich. Anthias showing on their fins. I’ll keep them fed and work through it. Shipping stress plus ich, is what killed the leopard (haven’t seen, but most likely as they are poor shippers), melanurus, and finally yellow tang.

It happens. Ich isn’t that big of a deal, as long as they’re healthy so I’m not too worried. I’ll practice ich management with UV and ozone.

Hard to take a pic of it

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It’s ich. Anthias showing on their fins. I’ll keep them fed and work through it. Shipping stress plus ich, is what killed the leopard (haven’t seen, but most likely as they are poor shippers), melanurus, and finally yellow tang.

It happens. Ich isn’t that big of a deal, as long as they’re healthy so I’m not too worried. I’ll practice ich management with UV and ozone.

Hard to take a pic of it

Sorry - I'm not seeing clear signs of ich here, I can't see actual trophonts in the images - maybe they show in person, but not in your photos (those are still pretty blue). Ich doesn't cause fish loss unless the number of trophonts number in the hundreds on a single fish. There is an issue that I call "stale ich", where in advanced infections, the visible trophonts can't be seen because the fish's mucus clouds them over. I don't see that either, but maybe?

 

[Kzang]

Sorry - I'm not seeing clear signs of ich here, I can't see actual trophonts in the images - maybe they show in person, but not in your photos (those are still pretty blue). Ich doesn't cause fish loss unless the number of trophonts number in the hundreds on a single fish. There is an issue that I call "stale ich", where in advanced infections, the visible trophonts can't be seen because the fish's mucus clouds them over. I don't see that either, but maybe?

It’s clearly on the fins of 2 anthias. Leopards won’t ship well, and don’t know about melanurus. The yellow tang was bone white and very skinny when it arrived. I’m assuming one of the wrasses had it. Most likely in the gills. Stress of shipping weakened them? Killed the melanurus, and then got the yellow. I had signs of something on that one flashing anthia and yawn on same day yellow I found.

I had dr reef fish in tank with no signs from dr reef for a month in the tank.

Ich doesn’t kill healthy fish. I’m assuming that’s why everybody else was fine, and the anthia just showed signs. Only 2 anthias has signs on their fins.

You can see the classic ich spots on this image.

It’s likely it came from that batch. It’s almost impossible to figure out the source since I ordered all my fish and inverts from dr reef. I did buy acros and corals from multiple R2R people, online vendors, and etc, but those were a good bit ago. I did just add 4 acros from a r2r person today that I bought in early feb.

Anyway, I’m fine with ich. I’ll do ozone and UV. The replacements I’ll put in a 40g tank and get them eating and healthy enough to put in the main display.

I’m sorry if I was rude or not listening, but I knew disease was causing my issue. I didn’t mean to be difficult, but I’m not a complete newbie.

I do wish the spots showed up yesterday, so it could have ruled out flukes. Not sure why yellow tang did the head shake after prazi.

No idea how people get really good micro shots. I got an iPhone pro 13 max and it amazes me some shots people can get.

 

[Kzang]

Sorry - I'm not seeing clear signs of ich here, I can't see actual trophonts in the images - maybe they show in person, but not in your photos (those are still pretty blue). Ich doesn't cause fish loss unless the number of trophonts number in the hundreds on a single fish. There is an issue that I call "stale ich", where in advanced infections, the visible trophonts can't be seen because the fish's mucus clouds them over. I don't see that either, but maybe?

Here ya go. All of them have it now. Body has it, almost looks like it could be velvet. Hard to see on body unless light hits it right

 

[flashsmith]

Yea adding all those fish at once is what brought on the stress and then this. It's my understanding pathogens are always present in most systems. Stress will weaken the fish just enough to allow them to take hold. I lost probably 10 fish to a velvet outbreak 4 months ago. Didn't add anything for nearly a year. I sold off a bunch of fish from my main display to shut down another tank and transferred those fish to my main tank. It was only 4 fish. Well two of those fish didn't get along and stressed everything in the tank with the constant fighting. Velvet wiped my tank in just a few days. The only ones that survived were 4 wrasses. They never showed signs of it. All my tangs butterflies and angels died. I'm just now adding a couple things back. That was 100% my fault. Sometimes things happen like that. Velvet kills fast so I guess you'll find out soon enough. If it is velvet there's not a lot you can do other than let it run it's course and go fallow for 3 months.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here ya go. All of them have it now. Body has it, almost looks like it could be velvet. Hard to see on body unless light hits it right

Velvet (Amyloodinium) will always cause rapid breathing as the first, and sometimes only symptom. If the fish's respiration rate is above 100 gill beats per minute, you can rule out ich and more confirm velvet. Either way, the best treatment for both issues would be 2.25 ppm coppersafe or copper power in a treatment tank for 30 days.

 

[Kzang]

Velvet (Amyloodinium) will always cause rapid breathing as the first, and sometimes only symptom. If the fish's respiration rate is above 100 gill beats per minute, you can rule out ich and more confirm velvet. Either way, the best treatment for both issues would be 2.25 ppm coppersafe or copper power in a treatment tank for 30 days.

So far, the anthias are eating great and not hiding from light. The Kole tang is hiding from light. The anthias do have a sheen that i do not like. It is possible to be ich. I ordered 3 different times from dr reef so it could be ich from an earlier time. I did have two black ice Longfin a month before the first dr reef fish. No sign there though. With the rapid death of the leopard, melanurus, and yellow, it could be velvet. The yellow was very fast respirations, but it did arrive very skinny and not great health. Most likely due to biota. The dwarf possum wrasse, two court jesters, cleaner wrasse, are unaffected.

If it was velvet, I’d imagine all of them would be having trouble 6 days in. I had 4 lyretails before, and I don’t recall the sheen. My neighbor has them and I can go take a look Friday if I need to for a frame of reference. They are much bigger now though. After all these years when I had them and him having them.

Unfortunately the springeri damsel got sucked into mp40 last night and got its head cut off. Don’t see the tailspot, but I have so much rockwork, might be difficult. I haven’t seen the flaming prawn goby but once since put in the big tank. It was difficult to find in a 20g much less a 137g.

I work 13 hours tomorrow, off Friday, then work 12 hours Saturday and Sunday. So time will tell.

Dr reef offered to take them back and QT them feee of charge which is wonderful, but I’m just going to get replacements and take the matter in my own hands.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

So… I was willing to be skeptical that I screwed up somehow. But this exact thing happened to my last two batches of tangs from Dr reef. Same symptoms, all fish dead.

Don’t know if I just got unlucky. Not getting into details, just wanted to share anecdote.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So… I was willing to be skeptical that I screwed up somehow. But this exact thing happened to my last two batches of tangs from Dr reef. Same symptoms, all fish dead.

Don’t know if I just got unlucky. Not getting into details, just wanted to share anecdote.

I will repeat this:

You are ordering fish through the mail.

The fish are ungracefully snatched from the ocean, often times using cyanide, stun guns, large nets or other means of incapacitating them.

They are tossed around on small boats, holding tanks, docks and holding facilities as they are processed. The mortality rate is high already.

They are then boxed to be shipped to other wholesalers and/or direct to resellers. This means more tossing around, bagging unbagging and pouring and acclimation (not) and holding tanks and scooping and netting and bagging and shipping. bumpy airplane rides, temperature swings, long hours in dark boxes, etc. The mortality rate is high.

They then spend some time at a place like @Dr. Reef who does his best to nurse them back to health from their already insanely dismal odds of survival. He does his best to treat them and rid them of any sickness. He loses a lot of fish in the process too. Some DOA and others that are just not strong enough or well enough to survive the ordeal.

He then bags the fish and boxes them. They take a rough trip to the airport, then the loading dock and then another bumpy plane ride and then site on another dock waiting to be picked up by your delivery company. They get transferred from truck to truck, dock to dock and sit in the hot or cold. They then get tossed around in your driver's truck and tossed on your doorstep. The mortality rate is high.

You bumble out the door, grab the box and run down to the fish room and shake them around a bit more, drip acclimate them or dump them, whatever... even more stress. They get chased around in their new home, beat up and fight to survive, using precious energy that they don't have. The mortality rate is high.

You all act shocked that you get DOA fish or fish that don't make it more than a few days. You want to blame Dr. Reef (or whoever the vendor is). It is laughable. Why would Dr. Reef (or other QT vendor) send you known sick fish or cut corners when it is just going to cost them money sending you more fish or refunding you? They don't break even, they LOSE MONEY on every DOA fish or fish that does not make the guarantee.

You used to buy fish at your LFS. What you don't understand or see is the insane amount of DOA fish, daily floaters and insane mortality rate due to weakness and disease that they deal with. And, they are typically direct from wholesaler or collector airport to LFS airport buyers without all of the insanity in between. You just walk in and blissfully buy, unaware that the tang you walked out the door with was the one of 20 that made it.

The fact that ANY of these fish live is practically a miracle.

Fix your expectations please.

 

[Kzang]

I will repeat this:

You are ordering fish through the mail.

The fish are ungracefully snatched from the ocean, often times using cyanide, stun guns, large nets or other means of incapacitating them.

They are tossed around on small boats, holding tanks, docks and holding facilities as they are processed. The mortality rate is high already.

They are then boxed to be shipped to other wholesalers and/or direct to resellers. This means more tossing around, bagging unbagging and pouring and acclimation (not) and holding tanks and scooping and netting and bagging and shipping. bumpy airplane rides, temperature swings, long hours in dark boxes, etc. The mortality rate is high.

They then spend some time at a place like @Dr. Reef who does his best to nurse them back to health from their already insanely dismal odds of survival. He does his best to treat them and rid them of any sickness. He loses a lot of fish in the process too. Some DOA and others that are just not strong enough or well enough to survive the ordeal.

He then bags the fish and boxes them. They take a rough trip to the airport, then the loading dock and then another bumpy plane ride and then site on another dock waiting to be picked up by your delivery company. They get transferred from truck to truck, dock to dock and sit in the hot or cold. They then get tossed around in your driver's truck and tossed on your doorstep. The mortality rate is high.

You bumble out the door, grab the box and run down to the fish room and shake them around a bit more, drip acclimate them or dump them, whatever... even more stress. They get chased around in their new home, beat up and fight to survive, using precious energy that they don't have. The mortality rate is high.

You all act shocked that you get DOA fish or fish that don't make it more than a few days. You want to blame Dr. Reef (or whoever the vendor is). It is laughable. Why would Dr. Reef (or other QT vendor) send you known sick fish or cut corners when it is just going to cost them money sending you more fish or refunding you? They don't break even, they LOSE MONEY on every DOA fish or fish that does not make the guarantee.

You used to buy fish at your LFS. What you don't understand or see is the insane amount of DOA fish, daily floaters and insane mortality rate due to weakness and disease that they deal with. And, they are typically direct from wholesaler or collector airport to LFS airport buyers without all of the insanity in between. You just walk in and blissfully buy, unaware that the tang you walked out the door with was the one of 20 that made it.

The fact that ANY of these fish live is practically a miracle.

Fix your expectations please.

I’m not blaming dr reef. That wasn’t the reason for this post. I tried to give the best description of all in formation. I don’t think other people are blaming sr reef, just explaining what happened.

The problem with dr reef services and other QT people, is no one can pinpoint exactly where it came from. Dr reef can’t say it came on his fish or not, nor can I say I was the cause because even though all my fish and inverts came from him (minus original longfin black ice clowns) all my coral did not. It is unlikely it came from a coral frag, but it is possible.

One would expect a healthy fish coming from a QT service, though.

No QT is perfect. I’d imagine with such large operations, copper resistant parasites and prazi resistant parasites could show up and get past even the most diligent of protocols.

I should have, like any other service, place in an observation tank for 2 weeks. I have done my own QT, and just wanted to put them in my display without the hassle. That was a risk, even though it shouldn’t be, but we don’t live in a perfect world.

Right now everyone is eating. I am a bit worried it is possible it could be velvet. I’m running UV and ozone.

So far everyone is eating and out in the open save the Kole tang. The Kole tang does hide, but eats at the bottom of the tank. I left some unscripted algae at the top of the tank to see if he eats it yesterday, and he did. So it is getting better.

The reason I think it might be velvet is the speed of which it killed the leopard and melanurus, then yellow tang. Wrasses usually have good resistance due to slime coat. If it is ich, the time table would say it was in the tank prior. If it was velvet, it is possible it came in on the last batch.

The yellow and melanurus didn’t show signs of anything which points toward velvet. The Kole hiding points toward velvet, but all the other fish, with only anthias showing signs, still eat and aren’t light sensitive which points to ich. It is possible for both ich and velvet to be in the tank.

I’m hoping it’s just ich. Dr reef did offer medications, and I may go get it (will ask for chloroquine) and try to stake out the tank for an extremely cryptic 1 inch flaming prawn goby. If I can get that, I can get the rest and QT and go fallow.

If not, ich isn’t bad for healthy fish, and will eventually die out after about 100 generations. (I had ich in my old 150g, and it did die out after about 2 years. Tested with a black molly. I did try to cure it, but I didn’t have the space. I did copper with Hanna checker, and it still didn’t get it. I also did TTM, but no space and my other tank was about 5 ft away and aerosol transmission got it in the final tank)

Anyway, reefing ain’t easy, but we always must try what’s best for our pets.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I’m not blaming dr reef.

One would expect a healthy fish coming from a QT service, though.

No QT is perfect. I’d imagine with such large operations, copper resistant parasites and prazi resistant parasites could show up and get past even the most diligent of protocols.

Just making sure people set the right expectations. The post was directed at Charlie.

They do the best they can. They are not "large" operations either and have no motive to send out unhealthy fish, it makes zero sense. It is not a gamble that x number of people will not complain, etc. They are out the cost of the fish, the shipping, the shipping materials, etc.

The reason I think it might be velvet is the speed of which it killed the leopard and melanurus, then yellow tang. Wrasses usually

The leapord and melanurus almost certainly died because the didn't make the journey, not from disease. You are hellbent on blaming disease and ignoring the blatantly obvious, thus my post.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Just making sure people set the right expectations. The post was directed at Charlie.

They do the best they can. They are not "large" operations either and have no motive to send out unhealthy fish, it makes zero sense. It is not a gamble that x number of people will not complain, etc. They are out the cost of the fish, the shipping, the shipping materials, etc.



The leapord and melanurus almost certainly died because the didn't make the journey, not from disease. You are hellbent on blaming disease and ignoring the blatantly obvious, thus my post.

Oh don’t get me wrong I wasn’t blaming anyone. I was just remarking on a strikingly similar experience I had. Nothing more. Maybe I should have saved the anecdote for myself.

I even added “don’t know if I got unlucky” because I have had maybe 7 other orders from them with no issues (I QT so those fish were not affected)

I do appreciate the extensive elaboration on the fish shipping and logistical process.

 

[Kzang]

Just making sure people set the right expectations. The post was directed at Charlie.

They do the best they can. They are not "large" operations either and have no motive to send out unhealthy fish, it makes zero sense. It is not a gamble that x number of people will not complain, etc. They are out the cost of the fish, the shipping, the shipping materials, etc.



The leapord and melanurus almost certainly died because the didn't make the journey, not from disease. You are hellbent on blaming disease and ignoring the blatantly obvious, thus my post.

Dr reef is a large operation. They ship out a crap ton of fish each week. They have been doing it for quite some time. I read a post he made of about how many fish he sends out a bit ago. It’s a lot.

“Hellbent” is a strong word. I’m just pointing towards the most simple and logical answer. I could be wrong, yes. You can’t tell me if it was 100% shipping or disease, or a combo. It most likely a combination.

 

[Kzang]

I’d like to add, please keep this thread zeroed into the discussion of the fish issue. I want to keep updating this as things progress for myself and others that may find it.

It’s not helpful to argue about things that don’t pertain to the issue at hand.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Dr reef is a large operation. They ship out a crap ton of fish each week. They have been doing it for quite some time. I read a post he made of about how many fish he sends out a bit ago. It’s a lot.

LoL - large in context to what? Your preconceived notions are leading you and nobody can tell you anything differently. It is a pattern.

“Hellbent” is a strong word. I’m just pointing towards the most simple and logical answer. I could be wrong, yes. You can’t tell me if it was 100% shipping or disease, or a combo. It most likely a combination.

I can't tell you with 100% certainty, but I can apply logic and odds and tell you with almost certainty. Occam's Razor applies here in spades.

I will leave your thread, but I think you have noticed that you are somewhat alone, as all of the experts did a few pages back for the reasons noted above.

Good luck and happy reefing.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

I have to say I reviewed this thread and interactions throughout it. I’m not new to Internet forums, scientific communities/organizations, etc.

This thread unequivocally became needlessly vitriolic and a prosecutorial dog pile of sorts towards @Kzang, who has wholly maintained a respectful demeanor which from my perspective is a shame to see.

For myself I have noted the users and interactions in this thread and new expectations have been set indeed.

Kzang good luck in your issue and I hope you find some productive guidance.

Regards,

Charlie

 

[Kzang]

I’d like to officially add this, because I feel it is warranted. After this, it will be strictly fish disease related journey on this thread.

Dr Reef has provided extremely wonderful communication and warranty on his services. He has provided replacements on DOAs on two orders, and will replace the fish that died on this third order.

He offered to, at no cost to me, ship back and treat ALL fish, or provide medications at no cost to me.

What sets apart companies is customer service, and I feel if you do decide to order from Dr Reef, he will take care of you regardless of what may come up.

The question probably wondering finding this thread, would I order from him again?

Yes, I would.