New tilefish, new flukes?

[christinna77]

Hi fish medics!

It's me again, the tilefish obsessed person :) I got these two purples about 3 weeks ago. Right after bringing them home, I noticed some head shaking, but no flashing. This is the third batch of tilefish I've got that has flukes... Anyway, I started treating for flukes instead of copper.

They've now gone through 3 doses of General Cure, almost one packet each time in a 10g tank, spaced 7 days apart.

The head shaking never fully stopped, but it did improve a lot. I thought the flukes were resolved and that they were probably just still irritated and itchy from the flukes falling off, so I started copper at 2.25 ppm last week. Now I'm noticing they're shaking their heads again and some flashing against sand has started too, which I didn't notice before.

Both fish have been eating aggressively the whole time. I feed them 4 times a day with a high quality frozen mix and they're both active. The bigger one does seem to be breathing faster and both often shake their heads. I've seen the smaller one flash against the sand a few times too. Visually, I don't see anything wrong. Their colors look good, no spots on the skin or cloudiness in the eyes, so I think it may be gill flukes.

I'm not sure if a 4th dose of GC would help at this point. I also have PraziPro on hand to try instead. A FW bath is out of the question. They're extremely jumpy and the risk of them getting injured or severely stressed is higher than the benefit of the bath.

Please see the video below. I tried to record the parts where they were flashing and shaking their heads. Apologies for the quality. For some reason they really hate my phone camera and usually freak out or hide, so I can't get a proper video of them.

Here are the options I'm considering:

1. Continue copper for another 3 weeks. Then monitor and treat again with Prazi or GC afterward.
2. Dose Prazi or GC together with copper. Lots of extra aeration and monitoring.
3. Remove half the copper with 50% WC and dose Prazi or GC, then restart copper treatment afterward.
4. Stop copper and go hypo. I don't feel comfortable doing full ich hypo, so this would mostly be for flukes at 1.012, and I'd restart copper afterward. How long would I need to run hypo for gill flukes?

I'm leaning toward 4., since I'm worried redosing GC/PraziPro may not be as effective anymore after we've gone through so many doses already. As always, thank you for any advice in advance :)

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi fish medics!

It's me again, the tilefish obsessed person :) I got these two purples about 3 weeks ago. Right after bringing them home, I noticed some head shaking, but no flashing. This is the third batch of tilefish I've got that has flukes... Anyway, I started treating for flukes instead of copper.

They've now gone through 3 doses of General Cure, almost one packet each time in a 10g tank, spaced 7 days apart.

The head shaking never fully stopped, but it did improve a lot. I thought the flukes were resolved and that they were probably just still irritated and itchy from the flukes falling off, so I started copper at 2.25 ppm last week. Now I'm noticing they're shaking their heads again and some flashing against sand has started too, which I didn't notice before.

Both fish have been eating aggressively the whole time. I feed them 4 times a day with a high quality frozen mix and they're both active. The bigger one does seem to be breathing faster and both often shake their heads. I've seen the smaller one flash against the sand a few times too. Visually, I don't see anything wrong. Their colors look good, no spots on the skin or cloudiness in the eyes, so I think it may be gill flukes.

I'm not sure if a 4th dose of GC would help at this point. I also have PraziPro on hand to try instead. A FW bath is out of the question. They're extremely jumpy and the risk of them getting injured or severely stressed is higher than the benefit of the bath.

Please see the video below. I tried to record the parts where they were flashing and shaking their heads. Apologies for the quality. For some reason they really hate my phone camera and usually freak out or hide, so I can't get a proper video of them.

Here are the options I'm considering:

1. Continue copper for another 3 weeks. Then monitor and treat again with Prazi or GC afterward.
2. Dose Prazi or GC together with copper. Lots of extra aeration and monitoring.
3. Remove half the copper with 50% WC and dose Prazi or GC, then restart copper treatment afterward.
4. Stop copper and go hypo. I don't feel comfortable doing full ich hypo, so this would mostly be for flukes at 1.012, and I'd restart copper afterward. How long would I need to run hypo for gill flukes?

I'm leaning toward 4., since I'm worried redosing GC/PraziPro may not be as effective anymore after we've gone through so many doses already. As always, thank you for any advice in advance :)

I do see the flashing and heavy breathing associated wuth flukes, GC has a very low content of prazi and most effective will be PraziPro itself dosed at 85% of recommended dosage and allow it to work for 8 days, change water and apply one more application lasting 8 days and do add an air stone as Prazi lowers both oxygen and appetite which may be the case or part of it

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi fish medics!

It's me again, the tilefish obsessed person :) I got these two purples about 3 weeks ago. Right after bringing them home, I noticed some head shaking, but no flashing. This is the third batch of tilefish I've got that has flukes... Anyway, I started treating for flukes instead of copper.

They've now gone through 3 doses of General Cure, almost one packet each time in a 10g tank, spaced 7 days apart.

The head shaking never fully stopped, but it did improve a lot. I thought the flukes were resolved and that they were probably just still irritated and itchy from the flukes falling off, so I started copper at 2.25 ppm last week. Now I'm noticing they're shaking their heads again and some flashing against sand has started too, which I didn't notice before.

Both fish have been eating aggressively the whole time. I feed them 4 times a day with a high quality frozen mix and they're both active. The bigger one does seem to be breathing faster and both often shake their heads. I've seen the smaller one flash against the sand a few times too. Visually, I don't see anything wrong. Their colors look good, no spots on the skin or cloudiness in the eyes, so I think it may be gill flukes.

I'm not sure if a 4th dose of GC would help at this point. I also have PraziPro on hand to try instead. A FW bath is out of the question. They're extremely jumpy and the risk of them getting injured or severely stressed is higher than the benefit of the bath.

Please see the video below. I tried to record the parts where they were flashing and shaking their heads. Apologies for the quality. For some reason they really hate my phone camera and usually freak out or hide, so I can't get a proper video of them.

Here are the options I'm considering:

1. Continue copper for another 3 weeks. Then monitor and treat again with Prazi or GC afterward.
2. Dose Prazi or GC together with copper. Lots of extra aeration and monitoring.
3. Remove half the copper with 50% WC and dose Prazi or GC, then restart copper treatment afterward.
4. Stop copper and go hypo. I don't feel comfortable doing full ich hypo, so this would mostly be for flukes at 1.012, and I'd restart copper afterward. How long would I need to run hypo for gill flukes?

I'm leaning toward 4., since I'm worried redosing GC/PraziPro may not be as effective anymore after we've gone through so many doses already. As always, thank you for any advice in advance :)

In addition to the head shaking, I saw some scratching and yawning - that is a sure sign of gill irritation, and that is usually caused by gill flukes. It can also be caused by particles in the water, but I don't see that. There are also gill amoebas, but copper would have helped with that. Here is the thing though - there are also some crustacean gill parasites. We don't see those on typical marine aquarium fish, but tilefish are just different enough to possibly have their own set of parasites...IDK.

Prazipro doses out at 2.5 ppm. General Cure is 2 ppm. Both of these are in the range of the original dose which is 2.2 ppm.

You're aware of the biological breakdown with prazi in multiple doses? It means that each dose becomes less effective due to bacteria consuming it. The dose then needs to be raised. However, you cannot raise the dose of GC because of the metronidazole component, and you can't raise the dose of prazipro because of the solvent it used. You can only do that with pure prazi powder. In that case, you can raise the dose to 4 ppm.

Here is my post on dosing prazi:

Dosing Praziquantel (PZQ)

Using Praziquantel (PZQ) to treat flukes Overview In the early 1990’s, a researcher at the New York Aquarium published a paper on using Praziquantel (PZQ) to help control flukes, a parasitic flatworm. Also known as monogenean trematodes, these fish parasites can cause significant mortality in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[christinna77]

In addition to the head shaking, I saw some scratching and yawning - that is a sure sign of gill irritation, and that is usually caused by gill flukes. It can also be caused by particles in the water, but I don't see that. There are also gill amoebas, but copper would have helped with that. Here is the thing though - there are also some crustacean gill parasites. We don't see those on typical marine aquarium fish, but tilefish are just different enough to possibly have their own set of parasites...IDK.

Prazipro doses out at 2.5 ppm. General Cure is 2 ppm. Both of these are in the range of the original dose which is 2.2 ppm.

You're aware of the biological breakdown with prazi in multiple doses? It means that each dose becomes less effective due to bacteria consuming it. The dose then needs to be raised. However, you cannot raise the dose of GC because of the metronidazole component, and you can't raise the dose of prazipro because of the solvent it used. You can only do that with pure prazi powder. In that case, you can raise the dose to 4 ppm.

Here is my post on dosing prazi:

Dosing Praziquantel (PZQ)

Using Praziquantel (PZQ) to treat flukes Overview In the early 1990’s, a researcher at the New York Aquarium published a paper on using Praziquantel (PZQ) to help control flukes, a parasitic flatworm. Also known as monogenean trematodes, these fish parasites can cause significant mortality in...

www.reef2reef.com

Interesting about the crustacean gill parasites. I inspected their gills pretty thoroughly and didn't see anything out of ordinary. Shouldn't Prazi help with that too? The only particles in the water are micro bubbles from my airstone, but I don't think that'd cause so much scratching.

Anyway, I was sure I couldn't get Prazi powder here in Canada, but it looks like I got lucky and one of the shops has it in stock right now. I just ordered it, and it should be ready to dose tomorrow, along with my new milligram scale.

Thank you both!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Interesting about the crustacean gill parasites. I inspected their gills pretty thoroughly and didn't see anything out of ordinary. Shouldn't Prazi help with that too? The only particles in the water are micro bubbles from my airstone, but I don't think that'd cause so much scratching.

Anyway, I was sure I couldn't get Prazi powder here in Canada, but it looks like I got lucky and one of the shops has it in stock right now. I just ordered it, and it should be ready to dose tomorrow, along with my new milligram scale.

Thank you both!

How did you inspect the gills? To see the copepods of flukes, you’d need to do a gill clip biopsy and look at it under a microscope - I’d never risk that on a tilefish though, even using an anesthetic.

 

[christinna77]

Interesting about the crustacean gill parasites. I inspected their gills pretty thoroughly and didn't see anything out of ordinary. Shouldn't Prazi help with that too? The only particles in the water are micro bubbles from my airstone, but I don't think that'd cause so much scratching.

Anyway, I was sure I couldn't get Prazi powder here in Canada, but it looks like I got lucky and one of the shops has it in stock right now. I just ordered it, and it should be ready to dose tomorrow, along with my new milligram scale.

Thank you both!

How did you inspect the gills? To see the copepods of flukes, you’d need to do a gill clip biopsy and look at it under a microscope - I’d never risk that on a tilefish though, even using an anesthetic.

I was able to take a very close look, but you're right I wouldn't see anything as small as that. I figured they'd be larger.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I was able to take a very close look, but you're right I wouldn't see anything as small as that. I figured they'd be larger.

You *might* be able to grossly see the damage caused by gill parasites - white sections on the gills, or a general pale coloration (but that is relative).

 

[christinna77]

Update: Praziquantel has been dosed at 4 ppm, using 0.125 g. I also replaced their filter sponges with new ones from DT to remove some of the Prazi eating bacteria.

I really underestimated how difficult it is to dissolve in water. Even after using the brine shrimp net, I could still see some undissolved particles gathering around the waterline on the glass. I might try dissolving it in a separate cup next time.

Anyway, the larger tilefish started flashing against the sand bed within 5 minutes of dosing and continued for the next 15 minutes. Does prazi cause flukes to spasm that quickly or was the flashing possibly caused by some of the undissolved powder in the water? The smaller one didn't seem too affected. The larger one is now back in its cave and breathing a bit heavily, but it's no longer flashing, so I hope that's good news.

I was reading about gill flukes in your article, and the recommended second dose was 5 days apart. Is that still your recommendation? @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update: Praziquantel has been dosed at 4 ppm, using 0.125 g. I also replaced their filter sponges with new ones from DT to remove some of the Prazi eating bacteria.

I really underestimated how difficult it is to dissolve in water. Even after using the brine shrimp net, I could still see some undissolved particles gathering around the waterline on the glass. I might try dissolving it in a separate cup next time.

Anyway, the larger tilefish started flashing against the sand bed within 5 minutes of dosing and continued for the next 15 minutes. Does prazi cause flukes to spasm that quickly or was the flashing possibly caused by some of the undissolved powder in the water? The smaller one didn't seem too affected. The larger one is now back in its cave and breathing a bit heavily, but it's no longer flashing, so I hope that's good news.

I was reading about gill flukes in your article, and the recommended second dose was 5 days apart. Is that still your recommendation? @Jay Hemdal

Prazi doesn't kill flukes, it causes them to spasm and drop off the fish (and they cannot reattach). During those spasms, it causes the fish some discomfort as the flukes move around. Sounds like the larger one may have had more flukes on it?

Yes, a 5 day span is right for gill flukes. You may want to use a third dose though.

 

[christinna77]

So... we're not making much progress. They've had two pure Prazi doses 5 days apart and the next one is tomorrow. I thought I saw some improvement right after dosing, but the symptoms come back pretty fast. By day 3 or 4, they're back to acting like this:



I noticed one of them likes to open its mouth really wide while swimming upside down for up to 5 seconds. Both of them are still twitching, shaking and flashing against the sand, mostly around the gills.

I'm pretty sure I can rule out water quality issues too. I do a 50% water change every 3 days using water from my DT, which I know is completely fine. And the last time I checked ammonia in my QT with my Hanna checker, just to be safe, it was reading well under 0.5 ppm right before WC.

Also, this is not happening all the time. A lot of the time I find them lying on the sand together and acting pretty calm (video below). Their breathing doesn't seem fast during those times.

Both of them are still eating well too. Honestly, if I didn't have a camera on the tank that I review every day, I probably wouldn't even know any of this was happening. They act completely normal during feedings.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

So... we're not making much progress. They've had two pure Prazi doses 5 days apart and the next one is tomorrow. I thought I saw some improvement right after dosing, but the symptoms come back pretty fast. By day 3 or 4, they're back to acting like this:



I noticed one of them likes to open its mouth really wide while swimming upside down for up to 5 seconds. Both of them are still twitching, shaking and flashing against the sand, mostly around the gills.

I'm pretty sure I can rule out water quality issues too. I do a 50% water change every 3 days using water from my DT, which I know is completely fine. And the last time I checked ammonia in my QT with my Hanna checker, just to be safe, it was reading well under 0.5 ppm right before WC.

Also, this is not happening all the time. A lot of the time I find them lying on the sand together and acting pretty calm (video below). Their breathing doesn't seem fast during those times.

Both of them are still eating well too. Honestly, if I didn't have a camera on the tank that I review every day, I probably wouldn't even know any of this was happening. They act completely normal during feedings.

I would still do the third dose, but
It seems like the prazi isn’t working. That brings me back to it being some other weird gill parasite.

If one of them gets sick enough to go off its feed, I’ve give it a freshwater dip (might kill it) and look at the settled dip water under a microscope to see if copepods or leeches are found.

 

[christinna77]

I would still do the third dose, but
It seems like the prazi isn’t working. That brings me back to it being some other weird gill parasite.

If one of them gets sick enough to go off its feed, I’ve give it a freshwater dip (might kill it) and look at the settled dip water under a microscope to see if copepods or leeches are found.

Thank you! If I do find copepods/leeches, what would be the treatment for those? I'm really considering removing all the copper and going hyposalinity, which I'm thinking could help with any other parasites too?

Anyway, I just woke up and one of them actually suddenly stopped feeding today, but I'm not sure if it's because of something in its gills, or this weird spot on its head. It looks like an injury and it's the exact spot I saw the other tilefish sometimes (gently) biting. I thought it was a part of their pairing behavior, but perhaps it went too far.

I was able to take a close-up shot of it during feeding, before it retreated back to the cave:

 

[christinna77]

Another update: I just talked to the store owner where I got the purple tiles, and they let me know most of them from the same batch have died, which is not too reassuring.

 

[christinna77]

Managed to record another very close-up video of the head. I see some mucus on it. I'll probably do the FW dip later today. The strange thing is that the tilefish started getting worse faster after I switched from GC -> pure prazi. I wonder if the metro in GC was helping treat some other disease.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Managed to record another very close-up video of the head. I see some mucus on it. I'll probably do the FW dip later today. The strange thing is that the tilefish started getting worse faster after I switched from GC -> pure prazi. I wonder if the metro in GC was helping treat some other disease.

Could be - I don’t know if tilefish get Brooklynella or not.

If it is Brook - A FW dip will buy you some time (but is stressful). Likewise, metro may quell it but not cure it. Formalin is the best treatment, but is dangerous for people to use in their homes.

 

[christinna77]

Could be - I don’t know if tilefish get Brooklynella or not.

If it is Brook - A FW dip will buy you some time (but is stressful). Likewise, metro may quell it but not cure it. Formalin is the best treatment, but is dangerous for people to use in their homes.

Thank you. I do have Ruby Rally Pro too I could try using for the suspected brook. What about the wound on the head, should I try to treat it with antibiotics like Kanaplex?

The larger tilefish seems to be getting worse, I don't know if it's going to make it overnight.

My current plan is:

1. Do a 5 min FW dip.
2. Transfer to a clean SW bucket and do a 90 min Ruby Rally Pro bath.
3. Transfer to another clean SW bucket while I work on cleaning and disinfecting the quarantine tank.
4. Transfer back into QT with new water and sponges with nitrifying bacteria from my DT.
5. Then continue treating with Kanaplex or Metro in QT. Unsure about what to choose here.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thank you. I do have Ruby Rally Pro too I could try using for the suspected brook. What about the wound on the head, should I try to treat it with antibiotics like Kanaplex?

The larger tilefish seems to be getting worse, I don't know if it's going to make it overnight.

My current plan is:

1. Do a 5 min FW dip.
2. Transfer to a clean SW bucket and do a 90 min Ruby Rally Pro bath.
3. Transfer to another clean SW bucket while I work on cleaning and disinfecting the quarantine tank.
4. Transfer back into QT with new water and sponges with nitrifying bacteria from my DT.
5. Then continue treating with Kanaplex or Metro in QT. Unsure about what to choose here.

Are you upping the dose for the 3 hour dip? Like 3x?

 

[christinna77]

@Jay Hemdal I believe we've confirmed flukes. There were so many...

 

[christinna77]

On my phone now, but I'll put them under microscope later. I've no clue why they didn't fall off during all the prazi treatments...

 

[christinna77]

Took a better picture