New tilefish, new flukes?

[christinna77]

@Jay Hemdal They're both still alive and ate this morning, but I'm seeing pretty rapid breathing in both of them. I'm worried that lowering the salinity any further could end up being fatal. I'm actually thinking about bringing it back up a bit if they keep breathing this fast, and see if that helps.

Salinity is confirmed still at 1.014. I'm using VeeGee STX-3 to measure it, it's been calibrated and double checked with my TM hydrometer. pH measured at 8.0. I've got 4 airstones running in the tank and I dosed Prime just in case (and will do another WC when I have a minute at work), but I can't see ammonia being that high anymore after the water change.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal They're both still alive and ate this morning, but I'm seeing pretty rapid breathing in both of them. I'm worried that lowering the salinity any further could end up being fatal. I'm actually thinking about bringing it back up a bit if they keep breathing this fast, and see if that helps.

Salinity is confirmed still at 1.014. I'm using VeeGee STX-3 to measure it, it's been calibrated and double checked with my TM hydrometer. pH measured at 8.0. I've got 4 airstones running in the tank and I dosed Prime just in case (and will do another WC when I have a minute at work), but I can't see ammonia being that high anymore after the water change.

It does seem faster to me also (but I didn't make an actual count). As I mentioned, I've never used hypo on this genus, so I don't know of any specific issues. There is a "common thought" that deeper reef species are naturally less adapted to hypo. I don't know for sure if that is true, but it does seem like bay fish (porcupines, etc.) handle hypo with ease.

 

[christinna77]

Update: I waited almost all day yesterday to lower the salinity further, but we're at 1.012 now. I'm still aiming to for 1.011, so I have a bit of a buffer if it manages to creep up (I have an ATO, so it really shouldn't).

Both tilefish seem to be breathing a bit better, as well as still eating aggressively.

The only problem I'm having now is pretty bad ammonia spikes. I'm dosing Prime every 24h to keep it in its non toxic form, as well as doing large 50% WCs every day, and I can barely keep up. It probably doesn't help I'm trying to feed them 4-5 times a day... Anyway, I'll keep it at and hope it'll stabilize soon.

I'm also still dosing NFG, which seems to be helping with the head injury. At least I don't see it getting worse. I got some baked baking soda ready just in case, but pH has been stable at 7.9 so far, so I haven't had to buffer it up yet.

Here's a feeding video from this morning:



Another one showing the smaller tilefish up-close

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update: I waited almost all day yesterday to lower the salinity further, but we're at 1.012 now. I'm still aiming to for 1.011, so I have a bit of a buffer if it manages to creep up (I have an ATO, so it really shouldn't).

Both tilefish seem to be breathing a bit better, as well as still eating aggressively.

The only problem I'm having now is pretty bad ammonia spikes. I'm dosing Prime every 24h to keep it in its non toxic form, as well as doing large 50% WCs every day, and I can barely keep up. It probably doesn't help I'm trying to feed them 4-5 times a day... Anyway, I'll keep it at and hope it'll stabilize soon.

I'm also still dosing NFG, which seems to be helping with the head injury. At least I don't see it getting worse. I got some baked baking soda ready just in case, but pH has been stable at 7.9 so far, so I haven't had to buffer it up yet.

Here's a feeding video from this morning:



Another one showing the smaller tilefish up-close

My understanding is that nitrofurans will decimate the nitrifying bacteria. You might consider using Amquel, I think it will work better in this case.

What ammonia levels are you seeing prior to water changes?

 

[christinna77]

My understanding is that nitrofurans will decimate the nitrifying bacteria. You might consider using Amquel, I think it will work better in this case.

What ammonia levels are you seeing prior to water changes?

I see. I actually ordered Seachem Stability. I was planning to dose it every day while dosing NFG, so I suppose that could help too?

On Wednesday night, I tested ammonia and it was at 1 ppm. I dosed Prime, but by Thursday morning it had crept up to 1.4 ppm. I did a 50-60% water change yesterday. Less than 24 hours later on early Friday morning, I measured it again and it was showing it was at 2 ppm. I'm going to do another WC soon...

I have no idea how it's going up so fast. I wonder if Prime is causing false readings. I'm using Hanna checker, so it should be accurate.

And thank you. I just ordered Amquel, it should arrive tomorrow.

 

[christinna77]

Small update: we're at 1.011 and the breathing has improved a lot. The larger tilefish's wound seems to be healing well too.

Here's a video of both of them (please excuse my commentary, I forgot to mute the video and talk to my fish a lot! )

 

[winxp_man]

Just an idea, dose some bacteria. Also what do you have for bac surface storage in the tank?

 

[christinna77]

Just an idea, dose some bacteria. Also what do you have for bac surface storage in the tank?

I have sponges in the filter and a bag of bio balls directly in the tank, both preseeded from my DT.

I also dosed Dr. Tims after I sterilized everything and I'm dosing Stability every day, but I think Jay is correct that NFG just kills it. I'll have to wait until I'm done with it to re-establish it.

Right now the daily routine is to do at least 50% WC, redose NFG, redose Amquel, Stability and dose baking soda if needed when pH declines.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have sponges in the filter and a bag of bio balls directly in the tank, both preseeded from my DT.

I also dosed Dr. Tims after I sterilized everything and I'm dosing Stability every day, but I think Jay is correct that NFG just kills it. I'll have to wait until I'm done with it to re-establish it.

Right now the daily routine is to do at least 50% WC, redose NFG, redose Amquel, Stability and dose baking soda if needed when pH declines.

When managing ammonia, it is best to NOT buffer the pH too high - that makes any ammonia present much more toxic. Fish can handle lower pH levels better than most invertebrates can, so allowing the pH to remain lower can help the fish in tanks with no invertebrates present. In fish quarantine systems, I don't worry about the pH if it is higher than 7.5, and I try to keep it below 8.0

 

[christinna77]

I have sponges in the filter and a bag of bio balls directly in the tank, both preseeded from my DT.

I also dosed Dr. Tims after I sterilized everything and I'm dosing Stability every day, but I think Jay is correct that NFG just kills it. I'll have to wait until I'm done with it to re-establish it.

Right now the daily routine is to do at least 50% WC, redose NFG, redose Amquel, Stability and dose baking soda if needed when pH declines.

When managing ammonia, it is best to NOT buffer the pH too high - that makes any ammonia present much more toxic. Fish can handle lower pH levels better than most invertebrates can, so allowing the pH to remain lower can help the fish in tanks with no invertebrates present. In fish quarantine systems, I don't worry about the pH if it is higher than 7.5, and I try to keep it below 8.0

Thanks, I know higher pH makes ammonia more toxic. I tested at 7.6 yesterday before I went to bed, and added a bit of baking soda aiming for 7.9. I was worried it could go down even more at night, so I wanted to make sure I had a bit of a wiggle room if it did.

 

[christinna77]

Got some better footage today. His head continues to heal well. The cloudy eye is still bothering him and I really hope it heals so he doesn't end up blind. He seems to be grabbing his food fine again and isn't missing as much as he was a few days ago, so I think he can see out of it? Hard to say, but he's definitely more active coming out now too.

 

[winxp_man]

When managing ammonia, it is best to NOT buffer the pH too high - that makes any ammonia present much more toxic. Fish can handle lower pH levels better than most invertebrates can, so allowing the pH to remain lower can help the fish in tanks with no invertebrates present. In fish quarantine systems, I don't worry about the pH if it is higher than 7.5, and I try to keep it below 8.0

Yes higher pH, temps and believe it or not even lower salinity brings up NH3 (the toxic).

From let’s say real 1.009 hypo to 1.025

With pH at 8
Temp at 80*
Sal at 1.009 sg

NH3 will be at about .0145ppm
while TAN is at .25ppm

With pH at 8
Temp at 76*
Sal at 1.025

NH3 will be at about .011 ppm

Stay below the TAN .25ppm if possible but given the nature of QTing that can be hard at times….

 

[winxp_man]

I have sponges in the filter and a bag of bio balls directly in the tank, both preseeded from my DT.

I also dosed Dr. Tims after I sterilized everything and I'm dosing Stability every day, but I think Jay is correct that NFG just kills it. I'll have to wait until I'm done with it to re-establish it.

Right now the daily routine is to do at least 50% WC, redose NFG, redose Amquel, Stability and dose baking soda if needed when pH declines.

Are you using NFG pure? Or the Furan2?

 

[christinna77]

When managing ammonia, it is best to NOT buffer the pH too high - that makes any ammonia present much more toxic. Fish can handle lower pH levels better than most invertebrates can, so allowing the pH to remain lower can help the fish in tanks with no invertebrates present. In fish quarantine systems, I don't worry about the pH if it is higher than 7.5, and I try to keep it below 8.0

Yes higher pH, temps and believe it or not even lower salinity brings up NH3 (the toxic).

From let’s say real 1.009 hypo to 1.025

With pH at 8
Temp at 80*
Sal at 1.009 sg

NH3 will be at about .0145ppm
while TAN is at .25ppm

With pH at 8
Temp at 76*
Sal at 1.025

NH3 will be at about .011 ppm

Stay below the TAN .25ppm if possible but given the nature of QTing that can be hard at times….

Yeah. I actually made my own calculator for that, so I'm aware of all these values :) tools.tilefi.sh if you wanna check it out. It's been definitely challenging to keep the ammonia down, but I'm dosing Amquel now and the fish don't seem in distress, so it looks like it working.

 

[christinna77]

I have sponges in the filter and a bag of bio balls directly in the tank, both preseeded from my DT.

I also dosed Dr. Tims after I sterilized everything and I'm dosing Stability every day, but I think Jay is correct that NFG just kills it. I'll have to wait until I'm done with it to re-establish it.

Right now the daily routine is to do at least 50% WC, redose NFG, redose Amquel, Stability and dose baking soda if needed when pH declines.

Are you using NFG pure? Or the Furan2?

This one.

 

[winxp_man]

This one.

Oh man this thing sure packs a punch with what’s in it. I see it’s a killer of all bacteria, gram neg and point of sale.

I wonder if using it as a bath would be better? Doing some research on nitrofuracin, I guess the use of it was stopped due to it being a carcinogen.

 

[christinna77]

Oh man this thing sure packs a punch with what’s in it. I see it’s a killer of all bacteria, gram neg and point of sale.

I wonder if using it as a bath would be better? Doing some research on nitrofuracin, I guess the use of it was stopped due to it being a carcinogen.

It is indeed carcinogenic, I'm handling it with a lot of care. But from what I found, it's still approved for treating fish. It was recommended to me on Humblefish (I was looking for a second opinion in case anyone had more experience with hypo in tilefish) as a treatment option for the really bad head wound the larger tilefish had.

The recommended use, according to the instructions, is one dose in tank per day for 10-14 consecutive days, with at least 25% WC before each dose. I read that once treatment starts, like with all antibiotics, it shouldn't be interrupted.

Regarding baths - I considered it, I even considered another FW dip, but moving them is extremely stressful every time, and I risk them injuring themselves because they're so dramatic, so I really try to avoid that unless absolutely necessary.

That said, the wound seems to be healing really well, so I think this thing is working! Here's Wednesday vs. Sunday, just 4 day difference.

 

[winxp_man]

Oh wow! Poor guy. The videos didn’t even show it that bad compared to these pics.

I see there is also sodium chloride in there. Is there enough to mess with salinity levels in the tank?

 

[christinna77]

Oh wow! Poor guy. The videos didn’t even show it that bad compared to these pics.

I see there is also sodium chloride in there. Is there enough to mess with salinity levels in the tank?

It was so bad I thought I was going to lose him. I still don't know what happened, but my hypothesis is an injury from him flashing against everything because of the flukes, as well as the smaller tilefish picking on it, which I believe was a pairing behavior as they were very gentle nips, but wasn't exactly helping the situation.

And I don't think so, it's been holding steady at 1.011, I check every morning and then after WC to be sure it's not climbing.

 

[christinna77]

Today's update: I'm very happy with how the head wound continues to heal, with no signs of infection.

I'm seeing some gill redness/a red bump on one side of the larger tilefish. The other side is clear.

The eye is still healing as well, albeit slowly. I'm a bit unsure about the belly. It seems fuller than I normally remember seeing, even after a heavy feeding. I've seen some pairing behavior before separating them, so could it be that it's a female and gravid? Or just bloated? I really don't know. Still acting normal, eating, etc.