Nitrate Issue Turned Emergency

[Gonebad395]

You said your chromis met a untimely death can you please explain this?

 

[ccombs]

I would try to adjust it to take out less water and more waste. Try to ar least get the water to be slightly darker.

If your taking out that much water each time you empty your skimmer and top off your tank you could be seeing salinity fluctuations.

I will try that, I have done it both ways and admittedly it is currently skimming wet because the 9001 is very sensitive on adjustments so I was just happy I could get it to skim wet or dry haha. I had to replace the impeller and did a full cleaning so I lost my slime coating and had to break it in again haha.

I watch the salinity very closely, especially since I don't have an ATO. With how small the skimmer cup is I would be surprised if it was causing anything huge, especially since I top off so often.

 

[Kmadden]

Also a quick note. We are all throwing a lot of information at you very fast. Do not go and impliment a bunch of methods to fix your tank at once because you could make it worse. Pick a method that you think will work, try it out, and give it a few days. If you see no results then move on.

 

[ccombs]

You said your chromis met a untimely death can you please explain this?

In regards to the chromis they were attacked by another fish. First night in the tank one of them had a bite mark on its side, a few days later the same thing happened to the other.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Sorry guys I miss qoutes the study.
Nitrites at 300ppm plus can start to hurt 25% of the population while nitrates have to be above 500pm to do damage.

 

[ccombs]

Also a quick note. We are all throwing a lot of information at you very fast. Do not go and impliment a bunch of methods to fix your tank at once because you could make it worse. Pick a method that you think will work, try it out, and give it a few days. If you see no results then move on.

Got it! My plan is to start with the refugium when the chaeto arrives on Friday since I can at least use No Pox as a bandaid. After I let that sit for awhile I will look into other issues, especially once I get the TDS meter and can test for chlorine and metal with a different test kit.

 

[ccombs]

Sorry guys I miss qoutes the study.
Nitrites at 300ppm plus can start to hurt 25% of the population while nitrates have to be above 500pm to do damage.

Got it. It is hard to study the fish for other issues now that they are gone, but it is good to know I can write off the nitrate poisoning.

I went back and found one of the articles I was looking at when originally trying to find the cause of death and it didn't give a ppm for poisoning, it just mentioned that in extreme cases it can happen. I just assumed that 160 was an extreme case.

 

[ccombs]

Once again, thank you so much to everyone for the tips. Putting in the time and effort for a great tank doesn't bother me at all, my main concern right now is that I am not providing a good home to the inhabitants that live there and I want to resolve that.

Also, just so you guys are aware, I do a lot of studying and reading before I post or ask questions and am willing to work to find the answers, I don't expect them to just be given to me. That being said I really appreciate the links to other threads and articles that I haven't stumbled on yet.

I never try to do anything drastic to my tank at once and understand that it does simply take time for some things. So far my biggest regret is not doing a real cycle on the tank when I set it up. It was my original plan, but the Dr. Tim's One and Only that came with the tank ended up being too tempting at the time haha.

 

[Rick.45cal]

Since you said you run GFO in one of your chambers what are your phosphate levels??? Have they been undetectable (0) this whole time? Are you running GFO without testing phosphates? If your system is imbalanced- tons of nitrates, no phosphates. You need to stop the NoPOx dosing immediately, you’re just building up a surplus of dissolved organic carbon. If your phosphates are undetectable you need to stop using GFO and NoPOx. (Without phosphates the bacteria that the NOPOx feed can’t work, they need three things, nitrate, phosphate, and a carbon source)

There is no reason your system should have skyrocketing nitrates, there’s something seriously wrong.

 

[Rick.45cal]

What brand of test kits have you been testing your nitrates with? Is it specifially for marine tanks? When you tested with a secondary kit, did you choose a different brand, or is it the same brand?

 

[laverda]

Your tank looks like a brand new tank still. It looks sterile, which is not good. I would do a chlorine test of your RO water. Chlorimines do not brake down readily and could possibly be the problem. When chlorimine does brake down it ibecomes ammonia and chlorine I believe.
It also sounds like you had a lot of fish, with minimal filtration and minimal live rock to process ammonia, nitrates & nitrates. I think it possible the high nitrates are the tail end of an ammonia and nitrite spike caused by so many fish and so little surface for bacteria to process it all.
ALK of 20 is crazy high and I doubt that is accurate. If it is I would expect dead corals and fish. 15 will kill many corals, which I know from experience. I believe a change from 7.5 to 8.5 is a ten fold increase, making 20 crazy high. Not even sure that is possible. I question your test results in general. It may be worth it to sent a water sample in for ICP testing.

 

[ccombs]

Since you said you run GFO in one of your chambers what are your phosphate levels??? Have they been undetectable (0) this whole time? Are you running GFO without testing phosphates? If your system is imbalanced- tons of nitrates, no phosphates. You need to stop the NoPOx dosing immediately, you’re just building up a surplus of dissolved organic carbon. If your phosphates are undetectable you need to stop using GFO and NoPOx. (Without phosphates the bacteria that the NOPOx feed can’t work, they need three things, nitrate, phosphate, and a carbon source)

There is no reason your system should have skyrocketing nitrates, there’s something seriously wrong.

My test kit doesn't have the best resolution, but it is somewhere between 0 and .25. I have been shooting for .1 so I am guessing it is close to that level.

Currently, No Pox is the only thing that seems to keep my nitrates at a reasonable level while I find the real issue here.

I only started testing PO4 once I got the GFO and it has remained in that same range as stated above.

 

[ccombs]

What brand of test kits have you been testing your nitrates with? Is it specifially for marine tanks? When you tested with a secondary kit, did you choose a different brand, or is it the same brand?

I was originally testing with API strips for my main 5 tests, but when nitrates got out of hand I got more strips to verify, then I got the API marine kit and reef kit with the drops and test tubes, etc. I do not know what my LFS used when I took it in for testing.

 

[ccombs]

Your tank looks like a brand new tank still. It looks sterile, which is not good. I would do a chlorine test of your RO water. Chlorimines do not brake down readily and could possibly be the problem. When chlorimine does brake down it ibecomes ammonia and chlorine I believe.
It also sounds like you had a lot of fish, with minimal filtration and minimal live rock to process ammonia, nitrates & nitrates. I think it possible the high nitrates are the tail end of an ammonia and nitrite spike caused by so many fish and so little surface for bacteria to process it all.
ALK of 20 is crazy high and I doubt that is accurate. If it is I would expect dead corals and fish. 15 will kill many corals, which I know from experience. I believe a change from 7.5 to 8.5 is a ten fold increase, making 20 crazy high. Not even sure that is possible. I question your test results in general. It may be worth it to sent a water sample in for ICP testing.

I consulted with my LFS and friends in the hobby about my fish purchases, here is a breakdown.

I have had 5 fish at most in the aquarium, and the blenny and chromis were so small I did not think they contributed a huge amount to the bioload.

Week 1-Cycled with Dr Tims and Clownfish (1 Fish Total)
Week 6-Added Blenny (2 Fish Total)
Week 12-Added Goby (3 Fish Total)
Week 16-Added 2x Chromis-Chromis Attacked and Killed In First Few Days (5 Fish, Back to 3 Fish)
Week 18-Added Dwarf Angel (4 Fish Total)
Week 18-20-Blenny/Goby Death (2 Fish Total)
Week 21-Added 2x Bangaii Cardinal (4 Fish Total)
Week 23-Added Clean Up Crew
Week 25-1 Cardinal Died (3 Fish Total)

I believe that the Alk might be outside the testing range of the API test so it is inaccurately just reading 20, plus when there was not an immediate crash I did not worry too much.

I never wanted to overload the tank and did not want to be the guy who thought he could be the exception and over stock his tank like a lot of reefers on youtube lol. My goal is to have 4 fish in the tank which I think is reasonable for the size, the only reason I had 5 when I had the chromis is because they were so small and best kept in a group.

 

[Kmadden]

I consulted with my LFS and friends in the hobby about my fish purchases, here is a breakdown.

I have had 5 fish at most in the aquarium, and the blenny and chromis were so small I did not think they contributed a huge amount to the bioload.

Week 1-Cycled with Dr Tims and Clownfish (1 Fish Total)
Week 6-Added Blenny (2 Fish Total)
Week 12-Added Goby (3 Fish Total)
Week 16-Added 2x Chromis-Chromis Attacked and Killed In First Few Days (5 Fish, Back to 3 Fish)
Week 18-Added Dwarf Angel (4 Fish Total)
Week 18-20-Blenny/Goby Death (2 Fish Total)
Week 21-Added 2x Bangaii Cardinal (4 Fish Total)
Week 23-Added Clean Up Crew
Week 25-1 Cardinal Died (3 Fish Total)

I believe that the Alk might be outside the testing range of the API test so it is inaccurately just reading 20, plus when there was not an immediate crash I did not worry too much.

I know they are a little expensive but you should look into red sea or salifert test kits. A titration test kit is much better then a color comparison kit.

 

[ccombs]

I know they are a little expensive but you should look into red sea or salifert test kits. A titration test kit is much better then a color comparison kit.

I am all about it if it is more accurate/easier to read. I have also considered the hanna checkers, I have my wife do the color comparison for me because I hate reading those things.

 

[Rick.45cal]

I’d start by getting a Salifert Nitrate test kit, a Red sea phosphate test kit, and a Salifert KH test kit. API test kits are pretty inaccurate.

Stop using the API 8.2 buffer. Don’t try to adjust your pH with buffers etc. Alkalinity swings are one of the hardest things on marine organisms, it’s really something you have to watch out for. As you already know 20 dKh isn’t good. A daily 0.5 dKh swing is normal/acceptable, any rapid increases are very bad juju in reefing.

I suspect that you source water contains chloramines that are sneaking past your RO/DI which are the cause of the fish deaths and the sky high nitrates. They make special carbon prefilters for your RO unit that will remove them. I’m not sure what the best way to test for them in your source water is but it’s definitely worth doing.

 

[Kmadden]

I am all about it if it is more accurate/easier to read. I have also considered the hanna checkers, I have my wife do the color comparison for me because I hate reading those things.

I am terrible at the color charts. The titration kits you are very simply. For example the red sea alkalinity test you take 5ml of water and then drip in the reagent. For each drop the alk. Is 1 dkh. Then you just count your drops until the water changes colors. It's usually a very noticeable change. Like pink to blue or blue yo green.

 

[ccombs]

I’d start by getting a Salifert Nitrate test kit, a Red sea phosphate test kit, and a Salifert KH test kit. API test kits are pretty inaccurate.

Stop using the API 8.2 buffer. Don’t try to adjust your pH with buffers etc. Alkalinity swings are one of the hardest things on marine organisms, it’s really something you have to watch out for. As you already know 20 dKh isn’t good. A daily 0.5 dKh swing is normal/acceptable, any rapid increases are very bad juju in reefing.

I suspect that you source water contains chloramines that are sneaking past your RO/DI which are the cause of the fish deaths and the sky high nitrates. They make special carbon prefilters for your RO unit that will remove them. I’m not sure what the best way to test for them in your source water is but it’s definitely worth doing.

I appreciate that! It's funny you bring up the buffers. I hate myself when I have to use additives and I really didn't like the idea of using it to raise my pH. Now I really regret it lol. Lesson learned I guess. My pH has pretty much always sat a little low, even when I try to bring more oxygen and fresh air to the system.

Thanks for the recommendation on the tests.

My RODI has a sediment block, then a carbon filter, then the RO membrane, then the DI resin. Are you thinking I need a secondary carbon filter?

 

[Rick.45cal]

I appreciate that! It's funny you bring up the buffers. I hate myself when I have to use additives and I really didn't like the idea of using it to raise my pH. Now I really regret it lol. Lesson learned I guess. My pH has pretty much always sat a little low, even when I try to bring more oxygen and fresh air to the system.

Thanks for the recommendation on the tests.

My RODI has a sediment block, then a carbon filter, then the RO membrane, then the DI resin. Are you thinking I need a secondary carbon filter?

So from now on only adjust alkalinity based off of your KH test results (you won’t have to add anything for a long time probably). Don’t worry about pH for now, that’s way down on the list of things to worry about right now.

You won’t need to add another chamber to your RODI you will just have to swap the current carbon filter with one designed specifically for Chloramines. Like this spectrapure filter https://www.spectrapure.com/product...n-block-filter-1-micron-10-inch-l-cf-cr-1-10/