No love for MH?

[Bpb]

So out of curiosity why halides over say a newer LED?
It 's sort of confusing.
Did my own numbers crunching on electricity and LED vs halides really was only about $100/yr but based on watt parity and 9hrs and .12/kwh

To be honest w/ $1200 extra $'s per year and the above statements.. I'm baffled.

Now recommending to others is another story, sure it is a cheapish and plug and play (zero adjustments except bulb swaps for the most part) to recommend but in the long run???

For fun and someone who puts their livelihood in the game..

Beats me man. Maybe the AC has to run less? I’m drawing a lower KWH per month than before. Bill has been in the $90-110 range less than previously, and it is consistent. Tank actually runs warmer since I removed the evaporative cooling fans as well. Hangs out between 80-81 now and previously it was kept in the 78-79 range. Not a massive difference but more data of note.

Why recommend them? Because they’re an effective tool if you can manage the setbacks. I don’t bother trying to CONVINCE someone to use them. That’s a fools errand. You won’t see me pumping my fist making claims I cannot truly back up. But if someone has an interest in running a halide system and wants to try it, sure, I’ll give a thumbs up and tell them what I liked about my experience and what looks promising with various products of interest.

I also use somewhat middle of the road leds purchased at wholesale. Orphek or ecotech pendants are not anywhere close to in my budget.

 

[X-37B]

So out of curiosity why halides over say a newer LED?
It 's sort of confusing.
Did my own numbers crunching on electricity and LED vs halides really was only about $100/yr but based on watt parity and 9hrs and .12/kwh

To be honest w/ $1200 extra $'s per year and the above statements.. I'm baffled.

Now recommending to others is another story, sure it is a cheapish and plug and play (zero adjustments except bulb swaps for the most part) to recommend but in the long run???

For fun and someone who puts their livelihood in the game..

I saw that on their sight.
I think Orphek are truely quality lights.
I run an OR3 blue plus and many locals run the Atlantik.
Many are going to full light bars over Radions.
Those are on a whole different level.
I like the setup but im not a fan of Tidal Gardens but they do have nice coral.

 

[oreo54]

I saw that on their sight.
I think Orphek are truely quality lights.
I run an OR3 blue plus and many locals run the Atlantik.
Many are going to full light bars over Radions.
Those are on a whole different level.
I like the setup but im not a fan of Tidal Gardens but they do have nice coral.

Personally I wish they would have done the MH thing, design emitters w/ reef centric phosphors.
Would have eliminated years of growing pains.
That along w/ the crazy claims of how many watts of this it could replace.
Really was sad to see that.
That battle still rages in the commercial world.
LED's are NOT cheap (enough) ..yet.
In the fw world the high CRI whites accidentally benefited that.
And what, RGB centric arrays due to color pop (funny huh) are all the rage.
Still cheapish t5's (also shrinking choices) in rainbow colors are sold as superior.
Different yes...
Franky t5's flat light (in anything thing for visual use) was never my cup of tea regardless of "advantages".
It's err.. unnatural.

There is something to be said for color tune-ablility but needs to be done w/ less err waste.
Red Sea 80/20 (? close)"blue" (mixed)/ white was a good idea..
Fields young and market (people) will decide.

It may be obvious but I don't see LED's going away anytime soon.
Well..who knows some quantum dot light source might appear.

How many years ago was it when one had dozens of different MH bulbs to choose from now down to a hand full?
Maybe a good hand full but still a handful.
No, not saying they are disappearing but undeniably choices are limited compared to the past.

It's ironic that people are adding t5's LED bars to halides..
If led's pre-dated halides people would want halides that look like leds.
MH's shimmer would be too flat, or not enough blue pop, or no high contrast.. ect. even if they "grew" better.
Oh and they'd complain the color or form of growth is wrong..

Human nature.

Oh and I hate glass. Funny thing to have when you worked in greenhouses.
Tubes,bulbs, even tanks to a certain degree.
Sorry, just rambling now. Age.

Next funny thing is people trying to get someone to switch when they knock people for switching out LED's.. More irony.
Poll results are err interesting.

 

[Bronx19]

So out of curiosity why halides over say a newer LED?
It 's sort of confusing.
Did my own numbers crunching on electricity and LED vs halides really was only about $100/yr but based on watt parity and 9hrs and .12/kwh

To be honest w/ $1200 extra $'s per year and the above statements.. I'm baffled.

Now recommending to others is another story, sure it is a cheapish and plug and play (zero adjustments except bulb swaps for the most part) to recommend but in the long run???

For fun and someone who puts their livelihood in the game..

To be fair he used T5 exclusively until a year ago. And he is running an insane number of XR30 in his new farm, mind boggling.

 

[A. grandis]

Ok.. for those arguing using numbers...
We all need to put on the scale what we can and can't afford. We all get that! We should do our best to have our reef tanks within our limits. That is the only way to keep them running for many years! So...
I don't really discuss about the savings because everyone will give priorities to different things. What we should know and discuss is basically about the quality of light and results. That is what matters the most to your corals! That's the way I see! I want to offer the very best to my system!
I don't have my dream tank because I can't afford that! If all I can have is a 75gal., that's what I will have. I want a 300+gallon, but I can't. So... I have the best I can afford for my tank within my budget. If all I could afford was a 40 breeder using a 36" fixture with 2 X 150W halides over that tank, that would be it. Simply because that is the very best I can give to my system in terms of light. I give priority to quality, not savings. I do sacrifice a lot to have my system the way I want. The value is in the results.

Here is what the "guru of reef lighting" said in regards to the LED/halide wattage comparison:


And about application:


Now... over a small system, with the proper halide fixture, there is not much light spill! The heat from the halide fixtures can be dissipated simply by putting a fan between the fixture and the water surface. Halides aren't only for big tanks! We have many different fixtures that can (and should only!!!) be used over smaller tanks because they were designed to be used that way.
So Sanjay made a mistake when he said halides are only for bigger thanks and added his observations about the IR. Heat is also relative. His tank actually needs heaters now and he is spending more money with his heaters than when he had halides, not saving!!! I hope he still have his halide fixtures. I know one day he will most likely get tired of all those plastic pucks!

I need a chiller for halides where I live cause my house is hot! Halides, T5s and LEDs, no matter!
My electricity bill didn't change much using any of the 3 types of lights here. If you need a chiller, you need a chiller! The wattage for the fixtures should be about the same, independent of the type of light you are using. You will need more fixtures if you want to use LEDs to be able to get the same amount of light and use only a percentage of the intensity on each of those fixtures, so you don't burn your corals! Too much money! Still, they are different technologies and will have different results. LEDs won't be able to cover the same area halides do because of the way they deliver. They will never have the same spectrum halides have! Can you live with it? Fine. Just like Sanjay said! He can live with it. He can live with his Porites looking dull gray, instead bright yellow. He can live with some dead spots here and there... Just do a search and find out. I've posted before couple of times... Watch that video to see how his corals look under Radions. Facts.

The very best results I could have was using metal halides and keeping the water temperature with the chiller. So chiller or heater, whichever you need where you live. If you need heaters for your tank, you will probably spend more money on electricity using heaters if you choose LEDs. No savings! More money, like Sanjay!!!!! I've been telling him for many years to go back to the halides. His corals are suffering. The colonies are dull, weird shapes, slow growth, dead spots under his colonies. For what??? To prove what?? For God's sake, he is the "guru of reef lighting" and he knows better than anyone! He was our teacher back in the day!!! Not a smart move using LEDs! That is the truth! just look at his tank now and cry! Take a look at older videos! It was amazing!! Anyways...

That is the magic of using halides! Very best results ever! Just keep the temperature stable no matter what and let the "sun" shine! Keep the size tank you can afford with halides. That is the key to have the best reef at home.

 

[oreo54]

To be fair he used T5 exclusively until a year ago. And he is running an insane number of XR30 in his new farm, mind boggling.

Cheap t5's.... and old bulbs and
admitted they were dim.. yet .. Success.(?)
It's unfair to begin with to compare a commercial grower to a "hobbyist" 2 different goals.
But why would it be not fair?


Not too long ago and suspect till to this day SOME growers use 6500K bulbs.
Again, not "normal" for a hobbyist.

See kind of like starting a err "match" between 6500k vs 20000K (stupid FAKE number the 20000k btw)

I use 6500k and sometimes 10k in my frag tank since I only care about lots of output.

(Respected source)

If you subscribe to the “more PAR is better” theory, then obviously the best choice is either the double-ended 10,000 K lamp or the 6500 K Iwasaki lamp. If you subscribe to the “more blue is better because corals are found in water where the higher wavelengths are filtered out” theory, then it’s worth noting that the 6500 K Iwasaki lamp had higher output in the violet/blue range than the 10,000 and 20,000 K Coralife lamps. The double-ended 10,000 K lamp is the best combination, offering both the best PPFD and the more blue color many reef hobbyists are interested in.

So why not convince everyone to run 6500k bulbs if you want fantastic growth.
Oh wait .. there is more to it.. heading down the rabbit hole now.

I always loved the look of 6500k with VHO, and find it hard to replicate with LEDs (G4). This is not a troll MH vs. LED thread, so please don't start with which is superior or better. With that said, I'm sure it will happen anyway

Whatever light one picks should be for their reasons. If it's halides so be it or t5's or ect. ect.
Nudging is fine but blunt force trauma well another story.
Too many people had great (subjective) success w/ lots of light sources/combinations.
Many if you boil it down hinge on looks.,
Sometimes I wonder if it's a conspiracy.
You know drive demand for halides to assure manf. don't fold up the line..
Self preservation.
Naaaah.
Any time I get into what someone wants out of their lighting is I ask them to define their needs and wants.
After that it just gets to trying to make sure they don't blow it.

 

[oreo54]

Hmmm.. He switched to LED's in 2014. And it is now 2021..Not thinking he's going to switch anytime soon

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It’s been 2 years now since I started the LED experiment on my 500G reef. I replaced my 3 400W Metal Halides with EcoTech Marine 8 Radion G2 pro LEDs and I have been quite satisfied with the change. No more chillers turning on in the summer, although I do have to increase the heaters in winter. Coral color has been great, and I am satisfied with the growth on most corals. I would say that the growth rate is about 80% of what I was seeing with the MH on most corals. And that is fine with me given the other benefits I gain from using LEDs, such as not having to replace MH bulbs every year, not turning on my chiller in summer, and creating dusk effects for fish spawning. I have had 100% reliability on the units, which is impressive. I was expecting to see some hardware failure, but that has not happened yet. Does that mean that LEDs have reached the pinnacle of reef lighting? There are a lot of things I like about LEDs, but I would still hesitate to make that statement. There are a few issues that they need to resolve. In my assessment, I would list them as follows: 1) Spread of light. I still find the light more directional than MH which has its pluses and minuses. But for a large tank like mine, I would like more spread and less shadowing caused by the light directionality
2) Better mixing of colors. While there has been an improvement in this respect, especially by LED designs that use tightly clustered LEDs, I still do not like seeing multiple colors in the shadows.
3) Spectrum. While a lot of people swear by the heavy blue spectrum, I would much rather prefer fuller-spectrum LEDs.
4) No power reduction when dialing in the LED spectrums. Most lights in the market today (except for the new AI Hydra) reduce total power and light output when reducing the intensity of the different LED channels. There are still some corals where I am not seeing growth that comes even close to MH. Most noticeably A. Millepora and the green Bali Slimer. These are corals that grew as weeds under my MH, but grow significantly slower under my LEDs. It does not seem like an issue of light quantity, but I think the light quality plays a bigger role here. There is another odd observation I can make about coral growth under LEDs. I found that corals frags tend to develop a larger base encrustation with LEDs, wonder why?

Found it. Remember 2016...

LEDs on a 500 Gallon Reef - Reefs.com

LEDs on a 500 Gallon Reef - It's been 2 years now since I started the LED experiment on my 500G reef. I replaced my 3 400W Metal Halides with EcoTech Marine 8 Radion G2 pro LEDs and I

web.archive.org

 

[oreo54]

Beats me man. Maybe the AC has to run less? I’m drawing a lower KWH per month than before. Bill has been in the $90-110 range less than previously, and it is consistent. Tank actually runs warmer since I removed the evaporative cooling fans as well. Hangs out between 80-81 now and previously it was kept in the 78-79 range. Not a massive difference but more data of note.

Why recommend them? Because they’re an effective tool if you can manage the setbacks. I don’t bother trying to CONVINCE someone to use them. That’s a fools errand. You won’t see me pumping my fist making claims I cannot truly back up. But if someone has an interest in running a halide system and wants to try it, sure, I’ll give a thumbs up and tell them what I liked about my experience and what looks promising with various products of interest.

I also use somewhat middle of the road leds purchased at wholesale. Orphek or ecotech pendants are not anywhere close to in my budget.

Sorry not trying to corner you. I was just curious.
So basically relatively inexpensive and work.
Got no issue w/ that.
And your negatives are individual.
Our attitudes are similar though I suspect it isn't always obvious.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Electricity Costs.

Looking at the tanks of yesterday on RC TOTM, one will get returns from fragging and trading. MH grows corals, period, and the colour is great. Especially is supplemented with T5 or LED.

Companies and LFS have done a good job poo, poo’ing MH. Just like substituting dry rock for live rock. Most LFS people, I’ve come across since taking a 12 year break haven’t been in the hobby long enough to have used MH, LED is all I they know...and their coral vats are all blue. This causes a big disconnect in the hobby... like the cycling industry, it’s all about obsolescence of last year and getting buyers into the latest and greatest. sometimes you get improvements...other times not so much...but you can spend a great deal of cash each on the latest and greatest for little return.

 

[X-37B]

Electricity Costs.

Looking at the tanks of yesterday on RC TOTM, one will get returns from fragging and trading. MH grows corals, period, and the colour is great. Especially is supplemented with T5 or LED.

Companies and LFS have done a good job poo, poo’ing MH. Just like substituting dry rock for live rock. Most LFS people, I’ve come across since taking a 12 year break haven’t been in the hobby long enough to have used MH, LED is all I they know...and their coral vats are all blue. This causes a big disconnect in the hobby... like the cycling industry, it’s all about obsolescence of last year and getting buyers into the latest and greatest. sometimes you get improvements...other times not so much...but you can spend a great deal of cash each on the latest and greatest for little return.

Good analogy.
Most lfs I have been to are the same, MH are stupid, and live rock is bad. No way to run a reef nowadays.
One even says the dry rock era keeps customers comming back to buy product to fix their tanks. This is from a 30+ year owner of a few stores.
What.....
The funny thing is a couple stores dont even want to look at nice tanks anymore, go figure.

I like the cycling analogy.
I have a 02 Jekyll MB.
Every time someone in the know, bike store usually, see it they get excited and tell me you cant even build that bike for less than 5K.
Then ask me if I want to upgrade. We will give you $500 towards a new 5K + bike, lol.

 

[Bpb]

Electricity Costs.

Looking at the tanks of yesterday on RC TOTM, one will get returns from fragging and trading. MH grows corals, period, and the colour is great. Especially is supplemented with T5 or LED.

Companies and LFS have done a good job poo, poo’ing MH. Just like substituting dry rock for live rock. Most LFS people, I’ve come across since taking a 12 year break haven’t been in the hobby long enough to have used MH, LED is all I they know...and their coral vats are all blue. This causes a big disconnect in the hobby... like the cycling industry, it’s all about obsolescence of last year and getting buyers into the latest and greatest. sometimes you get improvements...other times not so much...but you can spend a great deal of cash each on the latest and greatest for little return.

There’s definitely something to be said for fragging corals to pay for the hobby. Without a doubt. But. I am not convinced that many hobbyists are into fragging. Granted I live in a small town, but of the 20 or so local reef tank keepers I personally know, only 2-3 of us ever actually cut corals ever. The rest are content just to basically have a fish tank with some easy to maintain stuff, and still use higher end led lighting. Nicer lights than I have for sure from a features standpoint. If that is even close to a translatable snapshot to the hobby overall I’d say fragging corals is well beyond the interest or skill level of a majority of hobbyists. It’s just a different populous now than it was previously. That being said, if you’re doing reef tanks well, the difference in growth of fraggable stuff is negligible

 

[Mike konesky]

Anyone run these yet? Par numbers?

 

[A. grandis]

Normally fragging shouldn't be done if not needed. It's a way to share with friends when corals overgrow the system. When things are doing really well we are able to sell on Craigs, but if you are really trying to help sustain your hobby selling frags you would need one or more systems on the side to succeed. That is how some hobbyists became online stores, by "accident".
The live/dead rock deal is a shame, but most of it came after some new rules/bans to import them. No can help.
Most old local stores are only worried about surviving the waves and try to keep up with the market. hey already have enough trouble fighting with the online stores for customers. Stores embraced LEDs because they like the money coming from the updates, etc... If they sell a halide system you will only sell bulbs until that person dies. LOL! It's much more profitable to keep selling the numbers after the LED model names!
Truth is that they don't need to eradicate halides from the market, but they do so people are forced to buy LEDs as the only light in the future.

 

[oreo54]

Love to see a side by side battle..

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The Orphek Amazonas 320 is now officially available as an option for large and public aquariums. Late last year when we wrote about the Orphek Amazonas 80, we mentioned the upcoming larger version…

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[Bronx19]

Love to see a side by side battle..

Orphek Amazonas 320 are custom-configured for large and public aquariums | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

The Orphek Amazonas 320 is now officially available as an option for large and public aquariums. Late last year when we wrote about the Orphek Amazonas 80, we mentioned the upcoming larger version…

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I remember Phan putting those up over his big tank, the coverage was surprisingly rubbish for a huge light.

 

[oreo54]

I remember Phan putting those up over his big tank, the coverage was surprisingly rubbish for a huge light.

Coverage is a matter of lensing and height.
Simple geometry and physics.

 

[N.Sreefer]

I would love to run mh again but the power costs are prohibitive. Electricity in my area is generated through antiquated coal burning and they constantly jack the rates up. I still have a 1000 watt digital ballast and air cooled fixture but its just to expensive to run.

 

[zukihara]

I don't need to add a chiller for no reason, so it's a no for me. Plus, you can keep the 20 pound bricks and all that. Give me LED or give me death.

 

[Bronx19]

Coverage is a matter of lensing and height.
Simple geometry and physics.

Yep, one of the greatest advantages of a reflector.

 

[Bronx19]

I don't need to add a chiller for no reason, so it's a no for me. Plus, you can keep the 20 pound bricks and all that. Give me LED or give me death.

haha, I love my purple Lumatek bricks. They really add to the effect when other reefers come around that have known nothing but LED.