NO3 Vs Acropora

[Reefahholic]

I think it’s better to plumb in a separate tank specially for LPS. Not that it can’t be done in an Acro tank, but most do much better in lower light and less flow. I’m about to blow the polyps off mine. I have 6 wave-markers in a 100/G and it’s only 20” tall. Very hard to make everything happy.

Too keep on topic…do you mind providing your nutrient numbers.

 

[rtparty]

Higher nitrates just means you have excessive ammonia being converted and not being used as food. Low nitrates or even zero means you likely are starving your animals. That’s why anywhere from 5-50 seems to be accepted. I know of plenty of TOTM worthy tanks that read 0 nitrate every time tested as well.

Here is a great quote from Hans Werner on nitrate

Just to clarify one thing: In biology there is no such a thing as a phosphate / nitrate ratio. While phosphate is the principal compound used for nearly all biological processes and compounds, nitrate is not. Nitrate is rather a waste product, the ashes of burnt excess nitrogen compounds.

When after mineralization there is still ammonium left, bacteria use its chemical energy to oxidize it to nitrate, which is a kind of final waste product of nitrogen cycle.

This means, most other available nitrogen compounds, organic compounds and ammonium, are of higher value for biological processes than nitrate. In fact nitrate may even be detrimental to corals if they really make use of it. By-products of nitrate assimilation are reactive oxygen species ROS which may damage and "burn" tissues. I am convinced that in most aquaria nitrate is of little use as a nutrient but only accumulates as a waste product while corals and algae mainly make use of ammonium and other reduced nitrogen compounds.

Here is the link for where that came from:

NP Plus - Phosphate / Nitrate ratio

According to previous threads on NP Plus, I am suppose to test phosphate only because nitrate is expected to remain 0 while using NP Plus. I did not know that at first so I kept dumping NP Plus and testing my nitrate. I finally got a Hanna Phosphate test kit and it is reading 0.39 for...

www.reef2reef.com

That thread completely changed my outlook on nitrate and phosphate.

 

[pandaparties]

I've had my nitrates as high as 300 with no negative effects on coral (maybe slightly better color in the 50 range) or fish. I can't say the same for phosphates, second I go above .2 I start seeing reduced PE and color, above .4 and I start seeing necrosis

 

[ryshark]

Recently somebody told me that Shane @ SBB Corals was keeping his NO3 at 175ppm. I thought surely they got some wrong information! Nitrate levels that high probably wouldn’t be too healthy for fish.

Anyway, this kinda got me thinking where most reefers keep their nitrates at for Acropora. Yes, I’ve asked about a million people in the last 5 years, but the nutrient topic never gets old for me. I’ve seen it make and break so many systems it seems to always keep me interested. There’s many people here who grow coral for a living. We have a lot of farmers, hardcore hobbyists with massive collections like Graham, Therman, Thomas, etc… and just people like myself that enjoy the challenge of sticks. I love keeping such beautifully colored animals.

So…let’s get into it. Where do you prefer your NO3? For me Phosphate is a much more important topic, but it seems that NO3 is rarely talked about anymore which is why it would be nice to have a discussion.

In the last 5-10 years we’ve learned so much more about nitrate. When I first started dosing it, I was using the good ol’ “Stump Remover” from Lowe’s and Home Depot. Super pure right! Lol.

The first time I realized how important nitrate was I was having a huge Cyano bloom. NO3 was testing a zero. I had an anemone in the system that was completely deflated on his death bed. I mixed up some Stump Remover and dosed 2ppm into the system. The sick anemone instantly inflated like a balloon and got sucked into a wave-maker. Lightbulb moment. A week or so later the huge Cyano bloom started fading away. It was then that I realized just how important nitrate was and how many of these animals probably needed it to thrive.

Currently, I try to keep my NO3 around 10-20ppm, but I’m ok if it’s in the range of 3-20ppm and try to keep it in ratio with my PO4 level. I used to keep it more on the lower end, but I’ve had a few instances where rapid growth was occurring and both N&P took a dive to depletion. Depending on what’s being fed, bioload, biomass, export methods, system age, etc…this can sometimes be a major problem for one system, but maybe not so much for another. So it seems that everybody has different opinions on nutrients which is great. I do believe that a lot of older systems can easily survive on residuals. Is it better to keep these lower levels? Maybe, but I don’t keep mine that low. I seem to have a little better growth and color with higher nutrients (within reason).

Anyway, I like keeping the NO3 a little higher, but I also try to keep a 50-100:1 ratio with PO4. I’ve keep a straight 100:1 almost dead on for months, but also moved down to a 50:1 for several weeks. Either ratio seems to do well, but I feel like the 100:1 is safer for me. I have noticed a number of benefits from staying at or near these ratios. I won’t go into all the juicy details, but I’ve got a ton of documented data, and have noticed several benefits. The tank definitely does better for me personally, but if you look at guys like Glenn Fong… he does extremely well on the lower end, but is also carbon dosing the system which changes the whole dynamic.


When I’ve let my NO3 get to around 30, 40, etc….I’ve started to notice thicker tissue and slightly darker colors. Obviously, colors changing will be different in every system depending on what’s going on, but here’s just too many variables.

Anyway, I don’t really see a huge benefit (personally) running down lower at 3ppm or up higher at 20ppm. Or at least I can’t really appreciate any difference other than I’m “safer” near the higher end especially if I’m not testing as frequently. I try to keep it from bottoming out, and having a buffer zone is a good way to prevent that.

So yeah…I’d love to hear your experiences and where you keep your levels. It would be nice to have a discussion about the effects of nitrate with certain Acropora. If you have any stories you’d like to share please do. If you have observed anything interesting at different NO3 levels that I may be missing out on…please share! Or maybe which Acro’s like or dislike certain levels more than others. I’m always willing and ready to learn something new.

Cheers!

N03 at 175??? Just today Shane at SBB said that he keeps Nitrate at 20. Here is a link directly to the post. I didn't read every word of this thread, so I apologize now if somebody else already called this out as being inaccurate.

2 Year Anniversary Live sale -up to 80% off

@SBB Corals what your generic recipe for dragon acro and speciosa care?

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Reefahholic]

Higher nitrates just means you have excessive ammonia being converted and not being used as food. Low nitrates or even zero means you likely are starving your animals. That’s why anywhere from 5-50 seems to be accepted. I know of plenty of TOTM worthy tanks that read 0 nitrate every time tested as well.

Here is a great quote from Hans Werner on nitrate




Here is the link for where that came from:

NP Plus - Phosphate / Nitrate ratio

According to previous threads on NP Plus, I am suppose to test phosphate only because nitrate is expected to remain 0 while using NP Plus. I did not know that at first so I kept dumping NP Plus and testing my nitrate. I finally got a Hanna Phosphate test kit and it is reading 0.39 for...

www.reef2reef.com

That thread completely changed my outlook on nitrate and phosphate.

Thanks for your input rtparty! Dr. Balling definitely has some interesting thoughts. My question is… If he believes NO3 has little value in a reef, I wonder why he added it to Plus-NP, and NP-Bacto Balance. I’d like to hear his thoughts on that.

Regarding N ratio… there is definitely numbers (I’d call it a ratio, because that’s what it is to me) where a reef tank does better. I’ve seen it with my own systems, and have also looked at 1,000’s of ICP’s along side pictures of the systems. If you see a depleted PO4 or NO3 level (dependent upon system age) it almost always results in problems. I have seen that over and over again. I’d call that an inverted ratio where one is high and the other is low or depleted.

On the flipside…I’ve have seen very few issues when a tank is sitting at 50:1 or 100:1 or as long as they have enough of each for that particular system’s demand. It really depends on the system.

For example…my current tank ate 0.16 ppm of PO4 for 1 year straight. The dry rock was literally outcompeting the Acro’s until I hit the PO4 threshold (if you will), and went slightly above that. Meaning… the rock was able to bind what it was going to bind, and there was enough left over for the Acro’s and what little biome I had to receive the rest.

After that threshold was met the tank started to turn around. It just took quite some time for the Biome to get strong enough to outcompete the Dino’s and Cyano. Phosphate is so important that if you do not have enough…all the “undesirables” thrive, but their “competitors” (what we call beneficial biodiversity) cannot thrive or multiply fast enough.

The problem that most reefers run into is that when they’re having major problems and starting seeing all this funky brown black algae and slime popping up their initial thought is PO4 is too high. Or if their dosing PO4 their initial instinct is to stop the PO4 dosing. In most cases that is the wrong thing to do. This has been especially true in the last 5 years due to all the modern filtration and equipment we have now. There are some circumstances where it’s definitely tricky, but I can typically look at the color of the algae, with ICP results, and some details on the system and figure it out fairly quickly.

Nutrients are one of my favorite topics and this is exactly why I started this thread. It is good to hear and express different opinions wether or not they’re right or wrong. We all learn together.

So I hope nobody will become offended during this discussion.

 

[Reefahholic]

One thing I want to point out. Check out post #17. I’ll link it so you can click and look.

NO3 Vs Acropora

Recently somebody told me that Shane @ SBB Corals was keeping his NO3 at 175ppm. :-) I thought surely they got some wrong information! Nitrate levels that high probably wouldn’t be too healthy for fish. Anyway, this kinda got me thinking where most reefers keep their nitrates at for Acropora...

www.reef2reef.com

The black algae on the rock at the base of that Bill Murray (on 3/20) will completely fade away if I simply elevate my PO4 a little more.

I can even do a before and after pic to prove that with a dated and time stamped iPhone pic, and list my nutrient numbers.

The question becomes if black algae is forming on the rocks in a particular system (every system is different) does that sometimes imply that the system isn't getting enough PO4? I tend to think so. When I start to see a shift from brown/black to no algae and then to green, I know that the PO4 is becoming more available. More available to what? The corals, biome/biodiversity as a whole. Everything is utilizing PO4, but also many trace element’s because I’m watching consumption, and as I keep these elements in a better ratio or at target levels I’m seeing better growth.

 

[rtparty]

Are we talking about NO3 or PO4 here? My response was about NO3.

I don’t find much value in NO3 myself. I find tons of value in PO4. The only value I really associate with NO3 levels is: Am I getting enough ammonia to my corals?

Nitrates around or above 5 (gives us room for testing error) means everything should be, in theory, getting enough to eat. So to speak. I personally don’t concern myself if they’re 5 or 50. PO4 on the other hand I do want it around .1 or so.

 

[Reefahholic]

I've had my nitrates as high as 300 with no negative effects on coral (maybe slightly better color in the 50 range) or fish. I can't say the same for phosphates, second I go above .2 I start seeing reduced PE and color, above .4 and I start seeing necrosis

I had a big reduction in color a few months ago when PO4 got up to almost 0.5ppm. Just went and looked… it got up to 0.460 at the highest. I can’t completely contribute that to the actual level itself, because I was dosing silicates, Waste Away, and Bactria around that time also. The swing between the values was simi aggressive, but I don’t think the swings were enough to do it, because if I stay under a .08 swing the tank doesn’t seem to be bothered too much. Obviously .03 ppm swings are much more desirable, but I typically don’t have any problems unless I get swings north of 0.1+ ppm.

 

[Reefahholic]

Are we talking about NO3 or PO4 here? My response was about NO3.

I don’t find much value in NO3 myself. I find tons of value in PO4. The only value I really associate with NO3 levels is: Am I getting enough ammonia to my corals?

Nitrates around or above 5 (gives us room for testing error) means everything should be, in theory, getting enough to eat. So to speak. I personally don’t concern myself if they’re 5 or 50. PO4 on the other hand I do want it around .1 or so.

NO3 but really both.

It’s hard to talk NO3 w/o talking about PO4.

I agree, PO4 is much more important though.

NO3 is a very interesting topic, and why I started this thread. Everybody does it differently. I know several guys up at 50-60 with some of the best Acro’s I’ve ever seen. Then you have guys like Glenn Fong who target 2-3 ppm and have amazing growth also. Several of us (myself included) like to keep a little higher NO3 because sometimes it will bottom out quick depending on biomass and growth spurts. So I try to run at like 10-20ppm. I don’t worry too much until it starts to get under 5 because I know it could easily hit zero if I’m not testing frequently. Not that zero is super urgent with NO3, but you definitely don’t want to leave it there that long.


This is not to be confused with somebody who assumes they’re at zero, but their ICP comes back with numbers on the board. Usually in almost every case where I hear somebody saying they’re testing at zero (with both N&P) the ICP comes back at like .01-.03 and 1-2 especially if the tank is established. There have been several guys with newer dry rock tanks getting zeros and it comes back depleted and that’s when you see all the brown/black algae, Dino’s, Cyano, etc.

 

[Reefahholic]

One thing I do want to mention…

More times than I can count when somebody claimed the “bad bacteria monster” killed all their Acro’s or they’re having these STN/RTN events (a lot of Tenuis) the PO4 levels are always low or depleted. I always scroll down straight to the nutrient numbers before I look at the rest.

Not to say that bad bacteria doesn’t exist, but I just don’t think it’s very common especially with younger systems.

One guy was having problems with his Acro’s for months. He tired literally everything. The guy tried all kind of stuff, and nothing was working. Acro’s were continuing to die. Somehow I overheard or somebody sent me his ICP results. I ended up taking a look at his PO4 level. Phosphate was .02-.03ppm. Not only that, it had been consistently low or depleted on about 4-5 ICP’s in a row. I said, you need to raise your PO4 level to .08ppm. He says ok…starts dosing it up. What do you know…dude hasn’t had a problem since. Last I heard he was up around 0.15-0.2ppm. Tank is loaded back up with multiple different Acro’s. Probably 50-80 species or more. No problems.

In fact…the only problems he’s had were with the Mastertronic. Sold it after buying it brandnew.

 

[Aqua Man]

Acro’s were continuing to die. Somehow I overheard or somebody sent me his ICP results. I ended up taking a look at his PO4 level. Phosphate was .02-.03ppm. Not only that, it had been consistently low or depleted on about 4-5 ICP’s in a row. I said, you need to raise your PO4 level to .08ppm. He says ok…starts dosing it up. What do you know…dude hasn’t had a problem since. Last I heard he was up around 0.15-0.2ppm. Tank is loaded back up with multiple different Acro’s. Probably 50-80 species or more. No problems.

Ok. What was the nitrogen level though?

At this time for me, I’m not sure what NO3 should be or if it matters. I don’t test often but last time I did with a Nyos kit it came out clear. Never done an ICP.

 

[Dburr1014]

How old is the tank and what are the nutrients currently

Tank was started in April 2014.
It was started mostly softies and lps. SPS came a few years later.

I haven't tested in a few weeks.
PO4 is always 0.1 to 0.05.
NO3 I suspect < 2ppm.

 

[Dburr1014]

Yes and it doesn’t like the PAR or the flow. Especially the flow, but it’s kinda hanging in there. Definitely not ideal. Would much rather have it sitting in 150 with much lower flow. I need the tank to grow out a bit so it can get more shade and less flow.

You could move it next to a rock.
It will cut the flow down and may offer it some shade.

 

[Dburr1014]

Higher nitrates just means you have excessive ammonia being converted and not being used as food. Low nitrates or even zero means you likely are starving your animals. That’s why anywhere from 5-50 seems to be accepted. I know of plenty of TOTM worthy tanks that read 0 nitrate every time tested as well.

Here is a great quote from Hans Werner on nitrate




Here is the link for where that came from:

NP Plus - Phosphate / Nitrate ratio

According to previous threads on NP Plus, I am suppose to test phosphate only because nitrate is expected to remain 0 while using NP Plus. I did not know that at first so I kept dumping NP Plus and testing my nitrate. I finally got a Hanna Phosphate test kit and it is reading 0.39 for...

www.reef2reef.com

That thread completely changed my outlook on nitrate and phosphate.

I don't believe this is 100% accurate.
Those that are feeding heavy or dosing ammonia, yes this may be true.
Those that are dosing NO3, are basically skipping the ammonia. They are really testing the NO3 content.
Our coral really need the ammonia, I think we can all agree on that.
I went to FFM here in Connecticut March 3, the largest coral swap in the USA.
Lou Ekus had a seminar and I did get to speak with him before the talk. His theories say NO3 dosing contributes to nuisances where ammonia not so much. Coral use the ammonia and convert it to NO3. Where hair algae have a harder time converting, they will just use the NO3. He says just feed heavy and don't worry about nitrates so much, as long as you have some. It's the PO4 you need. Bacteria eat the phosphates, coral eat the bacteria.

This just says coral take up NO3(as ammonia) and not PO4, bacteria do the opposite.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok. What was the nitrogen level though?

At this time for me, I’m not sure what NO3 should be or if it matters. I don’t test often but last time I did with a Nyos kit it came out clear. Never done an ICP.

I will ask him. I know it was at least 2ppm if I remember correctly.


NO3 definitely matters, the question is how much is enough or too much. We know 2-3 ppm will keep corals alive and the tank happy. I just like to be higher to stay in the safe zone. I also feel that the corals may benefit a little more from higher levels. I have no idea though. Completely guessing and going off my instincts which may be totally wrong.

 

[george9]

I don't believe this is 100% accurate.
Those that are feeding heavy or dosing ammonia, yes this may be true.
Those that are dosing NO3, are basically skipping the ammonia. They are really testing the NO3 content.
Our coral really need the ammonia, I think we can all agree on that.
I went to FFM here in Connecticut March 3, the largest coral swap in the USA.
Lou Ekus had a seminar and I did get to speak with him before the talk. His theories say NO3 dosing contributes to nuisances where ammonia not so much. Coral use the ammonia and convert it to NO3. Where hair algae have a harder time converting, they will just use the NO3. He says just feed heavy and don't worry about nitrates so much, as long as you have some. It's the PO4 you need. Bacteria eat the phosphates, coral eat the bacteria.

This just says coral take up NO3(as ammonia) and not PO4, bacteria do the opposite.

Is his talk is posted anywhere online? Just from the key takeaways it seems like he talked about some good stuff. Also curious to hear in more detail about why dosing nitrate is like tightening a screw lol

 

[Reefahholic]

You could move it next to a rock.
It will cut the flow down and may offer it some shade.

There’s no place for low flow in my tank. There’s literally that much flow. I’d have to physically turn down the wave makers which I may do.

 

[Dburr1014]

Is his talk is posted anywhere online? Just from the key takeaways it seems like he talked about some good stuff. Also curious to hear in more detail about why dosing nitrate is like tightening a screw lol

I don't know if it's online, I can look.
Is like tightening a screw because dosing nitrate doesn't help the coral. They want ammonia/ammonium.
Edit:
Found an interview from 3 years ago with Reef dudes. At about 9 minutes in he talks about nutrients.

 

[Reefahholic]

Those that are feeding heavy or dosing ammonia, yes this may be true.
Those that are dosing NO3, are basically skipping the ammonia.

Who here is dosing ammonia? I’ve heard it works well or better, but always dosed sodium nitrate.

 

[Reefahholic]

because dosing nitrate doesn't help the coral. They want ammonia/ammonium.

It definitely helps the coral, but ammonium might be better. Never tried it. What is a good source. I’d like to test it. Maybe I haven’t been doing it the best way, but most reefers I know (even some pros) are dosing sodium nitrate.