observations of an old salt

[HuduVudu]

What single organism can wipe out an entire tank by virtue of it's existence? I don't know of any, but I've only been in the hobby 4 years and there is a lot that I don't know. Most of the "pests" people describe are just that, pests. Nuisances. Not all that dangerous and certainly not capable of single-handedly wiping out a tank.

That was an honest question for anyone who can answer it.

Spawning carpets, spawning coral. Figure eight puffers, cowfish and boxfish.

Alas these don't really come in on live rock

Majano and Aptasia can destroy coral, they are incredibly prolific and they can sting when they get big enough. If left unchecked they can nuke a tank, but it takes a while so you have plenty of time to deal with them. Dinos if not controlled will cover everything and choke it out the light, also there is a toxin in the dinos that will kill herbivores. So they can wipe everything out but fish, but once again you have plenty of time to deal with them. Hell even any macroalgae species can choke out everything. There is a reason you don't see the various macroalgae species in the hobby.

There are lots of things that can nuke tanks, but the answers as to what to do are out there.

 

[Sump Crab]

man....

Do you have any interest in anything besides trolling on this thread? I replied to one of your responses with what I would think would be some common ground and no response. No interest in a useful dialogue?

 

[CindyKz]

Spawning carpets, spawning coral. Figure eight puffers, cowfish and boxfish.

Alas these don't really come in on live rock

I should have said "what single organism that hitchhikes in on live rock..." because that's what I meant. I'm not aware of anything that will hitchhike in and kill an entire tank, certainly not so quickly that they can't be dealt with (as HuduVudu said. )

I think the so called "risks" are non-existent.

 

[tvan]

@Jrain904 , Sadly I have killed more coral then I can remember over the years. When I say (man) I refer to myself. My point of view is toward building a reef and natural filter system without access to the "live rock" of the past. You do not support bottled bacteria. I have never tried it(so I have no opinion). You don't like black light effect on coral. I concur. You consider my System as sterile, I have tons of algae, feather dusters, pods, as of last week a bacterial bloom over the entire new sand bed. To me this is the start of an ecological system. If I come off a gruff, It's only because I haven't found patience in a bottle.

 

[Clownfish_Boy]

What single organism can wipe out an entire tank by virtue of it's existence? I don't know of any, but I've only been in the hobby 4 years and there is a lot that I don't know. Most of the "pests" people describe are just that, pests. Nuisances. Not all that dangerous and certainly not capable of single-handedly wiping out a tank.

That was an honest question for anyone who can answer it.

I once read an article in FAMA magazine in which the aquarist had an outbreak of some kind of little nuisance crabs that literally stripped all his corals and thus wiped out his reef. He had to tear it down and rebuild it as I recall.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I should have said "what single organism that hitchhikes in on live rock..." because that's what I meant. I'm not aware of anything that will hitchhike in and kill an entire tank, certainly not so quickly that they can't be dealt with (as HuduVudu said. )

I think the so called "risks" are non-existent.

Certain worms (Eunice sp. and similar) can decimate coral and fish. Some would perhaps consider this as 'killing a tank'.

For a complete kill you'd need something like a good sized Sea Cucumber or Sea Apple that becomes highly stressed/injured, and while possible, it's rare that they would be imported on live rock.

 

[CindyKz]

I once read an article in FAMA magazine in which the aquarist had an outbreak of some kind of little nuisance crabs that literally stripped all his corals and thus wiped out his reef. He had to tear it down and rebuild it as I recall.

That's interesting, I'd be curious to know what it was.

I'd also be curious to know if he "had to" tear down his system, or if he "chose to". I say that because I see an awful lot of posts (often titled "Starting Over" or something like it) in which the writer said he "had to" tear down and rebuild due to something entirely manageable, like cyano or aiptasia.

 

[littlebeard]

I think it is easy to reminisce about how things used to be and as humans highlight the best parts. It's easy to look back and see how much fun I had with my 150, yet I forget how many times I wanted to throw in the towel.

In one of my previous tanks, I used live rock and I collected fresh ocean water from a nearby reef. I collected from the ocean fish for that tank. This did not prevent ich from a store bought fish from ravaging my tank and killing every fish I ocean caught. My experience with a mostly wild tank may have been vastly different than that of others. I think that it is important that we do not forget those stories, those failures.

Live rock does present a challenge where dry does not. However, I don't see it as a magic bullet that will magically make your tank better. Our little glass boxes are just that, some mis-mash of creatures whom likely live in entirely different parts of the ocean and not remotely able to replicate the entire ocean system. The idea that we can truly replicate this diverse and vast ecosystem to me sounds ludicrous.

While I understand the desire to reef a different way to see a bit more of the ocean micro life, let's not sell this as a magic cure. I'm sure there's a few fish that might agree.

 

[mindme]

Been in the hobby for 15 years and I gotta spill my guts on this. So many algae filled white rock tanks out there these days. I mean picture after picture of unhealthy looking tanks. Whats up with this trend on starting a sterile dry rock tank?

Why are people so afraid of "pests"? I think the reason pests take hold and reach plague proportions is due to the lack of biodiversity found in these sterilized tanks. I mean I have vermitid snails and red planaria in my reef but they have found a balance in my ecosystem. I have to look hard just to find one flatworm and often times can't. I don't qt fish but my oldest is 12 years. I have so many unnamed critters and bristle worms yet my corals don't get eaten. I have algaes in my tank that can't compete against my Coraline. I relish the moments I discover a new critter in my tank, I certainly don't panic.

If you're new to the hobby just know that there is another way to start a reef that works. You can have a tank that is beautiful from day one. You don't have to go the dry rock route. Look at LIVErock as the single greatest investment in your reefs success.

I hope that a trend will start in the direction of farmed ocean rock. More biodiversity in reefs is needed. No longer will newbies wait for a year or longer for an established tank. No longer will the majority of tanks be a mixture of white, brown, and a handful of tiny unhappy frags.

Dry rock doesn't take away from a reef somewhere. I know some people aquaculture them out in the ocean now and that is cool. But a good bit of rock comes at the cost of something out in the ocean.

I also like that you can aquascape the dry rock without any water in the tank. It gives me a chance to try different things, cut the rocks if needed, etc. I know you can do similiar things with live rock, but doesn't seem as easy(never tried, maybe I'm wrong).

Even with dips and dry rock, I still get pests though. They still come in on plugs and other things. I can see no sign of algae on a plug, or even in my tank for a long time. But as soon as I miss a water change or something causes levels to get off, here they come.

However. I once bought a fist sized piece of live rock from a LFS once to seed my tank. It had a mantis shrimp in it. The kind that stabs stuff. I could not believe it, such a small piece of rock and that was in it. I'm not going to get a pest like that off a frag.

Both have their pros and cons. It's a tough choice, but dry rock barely wins out for me.

 

[Sump Crab]

@Jrain904 , Sadly I have killed more coral then I can remember over the years. When I say (man) I refer to myself. My point of view is toward building a reef and natural filter system without access to the "live rock" of the past. You do not support bottled bacteria. I have never tried it(so I have no opinion). You don't like black light effect on coral. I concur. You consider my System as sterile, I have tons of algae, feather dusters, pods, as of last week a bacterial bloom over the entire new sand bed. To me this is the start of an ecological system. If I come off a gruff, It's only because I haven't found patience in a bottle.

Thats what I was saying in my response to you. I think we agree on things more than you think. You are building a diverse ecosystem with rubble and such versus buying larger liverock. You are actively seeking the diversity that many of us are talking about here. You seem to agree with us that diversity is key. There are so many others on this site actively FIGHTING diversity in a reef.

 

[NeverlosT]

I think some of you may be operating on the false assumption that everyone is trying to keep a natural looking reef. Look at the trends. Blue lighting. Neon Sticks. Dry branchy wild looking rock, and the bare minimum in the tank. These are pieces of art, not old school "natural reef" tanks.

I too was reefing back in the 90s and I remember the deal. But now I choose to maintain somewhat species specific tanks, and I choose to shape them exactly as I wish. It takes much more time than plopping a bunch of liverock in tank, but it is another path, not a wrong path.

I sometimes miss the diversity of tube worms and weird critters and god-knows-what that came in on the live rock, but that just isn't the theme of my current tanks.

Anyhow. To each their own, right?

 

[HuduVudu]

I think some of you may be operating on the false assumption that everyone is trying to keep a natural looking reef. Look at the trends. Blue lighting. Neon Sticks. Dry branchy wild looking rock, and the bare minimum in the tank. These are pieces of art, not old school "natural reef" tanks.

And as such prone to quick destruction. Those tanks require a ton of maintenance and if you want to do that indefinitely then you should do it because if it is beautiful to you then who is to say otherwise, but be warned one misstep and those tanks crash.

Personally I think that a tank as you describe with solid underlying biodiversity is much better and more robust. The key as always is stability over time, and this means solid biological solutions. Everything part doesn't need to be biological, a natural system is the other end of the spectrum, but over reliance on mechanical/chemical solutions is why people don't live in hospitals.

 

[Clownfish_Boy]

That's interesting, I'd be curious to know what it was.

I'd also be curious to know if he "had to" tear down his system, or if he "chose to". I say that because I see an awful lot of posts (often titled "Starting Over" or something like it) in which the writer said he "had to" tear down and rebuild due to something entirely manageable, like cyano or aiptasia.

He had to rebuild his setup. His reef was literally stripped. There are things, like those (zoeanthid) crabs, which can hitchhike into a tank on uncured live rock (he always used uncured for the diversity) which can wreak havoc on a reef. If one uses "cured" live rock the risk of getting pests is greatly minimized, but then there is very little if any biodiversity.

 

[Snoopdog]

He had to rebuild his setup. His reef was literally stripped. There are things, like those (zoeanthid) crabs, which can hitchhike into a tank on uncured live rock (he always used uncured for the diversity) which can wreak havoc on a reef. If one uses "cured" live rock the risk of getting pests is greatly minimized, but then there is very little if any biodiversity.

Elaborate please. I looked up zoanthid crab and came up with nil.

 

[NeverlosT]

And as such prone to quick destruction. Those tanks require a ton of maintenance and if you want to do that indefinitely then you should do it because if it is beautiful to you then who is to say otherwise, but be warned one misstep and those tanks crash.

I believe this to be a baseless claim and the kind of thing that steers new reefers wrong. A well cycled tank, seeded properly, even if started with dry rock, following sound reefing principles is in no more danger of crashing due to catastrophic failure than one started with live rock. I would challenge you to provide the science behind this claim. Bacterial biodiversity? Nonsense. There are a half dozen products on the market today that provide epic bacterial biodiversity, in addition to what would make it into the tank anyway, or seed the tank with a small piece of old rock from a known healthy and pest free tank.

You may have made your claim due to the "minimal rock" part, but in most cases the rock is merely housed in the filtration exterior to the DT, so biofiltration available is not a limiting factor.

Like I said. Different strokes, and neither are wrong.

I do not advocate for chemical or quick fixes, in that we agree. Patience and stability are paramount, but are possible with either method.

 

[HuduVudu]

I believe this to be a baseless claim and the kind of thing that steers new reefers wrong.

That biodiversity is important?
It isn't just planktonic biodiversity but all the way up the chain. You are going to get biodiversity one way or another if you are successful. If it comes in on a coral colony or from some rock from an established tank, it's going to come in, and you don't have a lot of control over that. THAT is the thing a lot of long term reefers really have a problem with and are pointing out is that you have to allow the biodiversity to come. Most say that it is easier to get it with live rock and deal with it up front, others are ok getting it through other means and I am not talking about in a bottle. Either way you don't have control over it. You get the pests out the best you can and work around it. Controlling your tank is a fools errand and that leads into my next issue.

Look at the trends. Blue lighting. Neon Sticks. Dry branchy wild looking rock, and the bare minimum in the tank.

Do we really think the noobs should be doing this? Is this really the best way to get started learning or would it just be better to buy plastic corals and start that way. In the 80's it was the bleached coral skeletons that everyone would remove and bleach weekly to keep the algae at bay. I actually maintained one of those tanks in Phoenix (in 2002) with an undergravel filter and canister filter. It was a predator tank and though the system worked I pleaded with the owner to add more biology to stabilize the tank, but he didn't trust the "dirtiness" of it. I was out there every week like clockwork to make sure that all the appropriate maintenance was done filters clean pump working chiller correct. It was a ton of maintenance and he paid for it. Then one day .... He was gone and asked his roommate to feed the tank and the roommate put in too many shrimp because that is what he feed. Seriously it didn't take be 2 hours before that tank crashed. Everything died, and the guy got out of the hobby. This tank had been up for two years, and everything seemed fine. I am sure there was biodiversity in the rocks. Because it was a big tank he had two canister filters and I only cleaned the filter one at a time to try to keep what little biology I could but that tank and there where many like it was a monolith and doomed to fail. The new tanks you are describing are just as monlithic and just as doom. People seem to be enamored with the fragile and the far from reality ... their choice but most don't understand just what they are getting into.

I have seen this trend rinse and repeat ad nauseum. Just more fads that will come and go, but for a noob to move to long term reefer they have to understand that this isn't exact science, it's biology and that must be respected.

 

[NeverlosT]

That biodiversity is important?
It isn't just planktonic biodiversity but all the way up the chain. You are going to get biodiversity one way or another if you are successful. If it comes in on a coral colony or from some rock from an established tank, it's going to come in, and you don't have a lot of control over that. THAT is the thing a lot of long term reefers really have a problem with and are...

I have seen this trend rinse and repeat ad nauseum. Just more fads that will come and go, but for a noob to move to long term reefer they have to understand that this isn't exact science, it's biology and that must be respected.

Anecdotes aside, I believe that noobs should start with education. Pick a reefer who is successful and follow their methods. Read some books. Form an opinion over time, based on facts, and make reefing their own. I do not believe that noobs should be told that starting with live rock is the key to long term success or some sort of panacea for all of their reefing woes. While I agree that live rock is a fine method, and a few aptasia here and there are a small price to pay for a massive source of biological filtration, I maintain that it is not the only path to success as shown by countless reefers here and elsewhere who do not use that method. So I agree that your method works. But I disagree that it is objectively better than others.

 

[HuduVudu]

Anecdotes aside, I believe that noobs should start with education. Pick a reefer who is successful and follow their methods. Read some books. Form an opinion over time, based on facts, and make reefing their own.

In and ideal world that we will never live in

99% of new people have something to prove. I don't know why people choose this as a path to prove their smartness or whatever, but they do. I think in this statement you are are lamenting at the better path you should have taken. I empathize fully. I was that arrogant newb once doing crazy things because I thought no one in the world had done it. I look back and like you lament, but that is not the reality of most people that enter the hobby.

I do not believe that noobs should be told that starting with live rock is the key to long term success or some sort of panacea for all of their reefing woes.

Agreed. The original poster was simply pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a cat. And to the OP and many of us it seems that this method has gotten lost as a viable solution to reef keeping.

I maintain that it is not the only path to success as shown by countless reefers here and elsewhere who do not use that method.

Agreed. I think though that the more working methods one is aware of the more likely one is to be successful at this hobby.

But I disagree that it is objectively better than others.

It is the noob that says any one thing is the only right answer without any context, inserting his own personal assumptions without even knowing it.

I enjoy this back and forth with you. This for me is what I really want from these boards, someone to talk to about the hobby that I love. I hope it is the same for you.

 

[NeverlosT]

In and ideal world that we will never live in

99% of new people have something to prove. I don't know why people choose this as a path to prove their smartness or ...

I enjoy this back and forth with you. This for me is what I really want from these boards, someone to talk to about the hobby that I love. I hope it is the same for you.

I agree that most new folks seem to have two objectives, to turn a buck in coral farming (as if success is that easy!), or show off the worlds most expensive polyp (so much of this). Lets hope that the hobby has a bright future with people raising and sharing creatures because of the love of sea life that they share, and lets hope they can safely practice reefing in whichever manner they find fulfilling, be it with rock still wet from the sea, or some weird wild looking scape with scolys perched like apples on a tree. Good chatting with you!

 

[Clownfish_Boy]

Elaborate please. I looked up zoanthid crab and came up with nil.

Been a long time since I read that article, I wish I had that old magazine now. I could be having a memory glitch there. I do recall reading that they were little ugly brown crabs. I think I misspelled it, there is a family of crabs known as Xanthidae, may have been one of its sub-species.