Oceamo ICP-MS Results for Instant Ocean Batch 23108

[Christoph]

Hi Randy,

The potassium concentration is very unlikely to be incorrect (above typical measurement error). We measure K with cation chromatography and ICP (OES or MS): Two independent methodologies using also completely independent sets of standards (references). Typically deviation between results of the two methodologies is only ~1%. We do report the IC value, since its even more robust compared to ICP data.

The fact that ion concentration summed up doesnt necessarily equal salinity: The salinity value reported is from a conductometric measurement. When adding ions you see especially errors of chloride and sodium measurement which can be in the 2-3% range (especially for chloride). Furthermore conductivity is not only dependent on total ion concentration but also on ionic composition, due to not equal specific conductivities (but afaik you will likely have better understanding of electrochemistry compared to me ).

The reference values we give for macroelements are dependent on salinity (we dont do that for trace elements seems acceptable ranges are rather broad). In the excel screenshot above only one set of reference values is shown (but all the measurements would have different ones due to changing salinities).

Regarding the salt testing a small sample size might not be very conclusive for a whole bucket or even batch of salt, due to possible inhomogenities.

I hope that was helpful! Let me know if there are further questions!

all the best,
Christoph

 

[jda]

Did you mix the whole 50g bag into the appropriate amount of water? 44g? I have used IO for years and it is dead-on-balls-accurate (industry term) for me when I mix the whole bag, but if I have to mix part of a bag, then it can have some parameters wander a bit.

 

[gws3]

Thanks for posting the info. If the potassium is accurate, I'm surprised it is low.

That said, I'm not really understanding the salinity calculation or determination. Adding up the main elements I see 36.4 ppt worth of ions, not the 35.4 listed (which might be a measurement rather than a calculation, but it points up the potential errors somewhere).

I'm also not sure what the reference values represent. They do not represent seawater at 35 ppt. The magnesium is much too high for 35 ppt normal seawater.

I tested the same samples with my home test kits when I took them. On my reef systems my Salifert Potassium test kit gave results that were consistently 23-29 ppm higher than Oceamo. However, on the IO sample Salifert gave me 410 ppm while Oceamo yielded 345 ppm, a 65 ppm delta. So that particular result from the Oceamo test does seem suspect.

The "Ref - Oceamo" column I copied off of one of the results pdf's. But now that you mention it, the Ideal Value for Main Parameters and Trace Elements is the same across reports, but the Ideal Value for the Main Elements are different between test reports. Perhaps they scale it based on reported salinity?

All the reports suggest an Ideal value for Mg around 1400 ppm.

 

[gws3]

Did you mix the whole 50g bag into the appropriate amount of water? 44g? I have used IO for years and it is dead-on-balls-accurate (industry term) for me when I mix the whole bag, but if I have to mix part of a bag, then it can have some parameters wander a bit.

No, I just mixed enough to make 4-5 gallons. What is your theory for inconsistency in a bag? Denser material settling to the bottom?

Perhaps next time I'll sample from my 600 gallon mixing reservoir. I'm transitioning between batches right now, so that will have to wait.

 

[gws3]

Hi Randy,

The potassium concentration is very unlikely to be incorrect (above typical measurement error). We measure K with cation chromatography and ICP (OES or MS): Two independent methodologies using also completely independent sets of standards (references). Typically deviation between results of the two methodologies is only ~1%. We do report the IC value, since its even more robust compared to ICP data.

The fact that ion concentration summed up doesnt necessarily equal salinity: The salinity value reported is from a conductometric measurement. When adding ions you see especially errors of chloride and sodium measurement which can be in the 2-3% range (especially for chloride). Furthermore conductivity is not only dependent on total ion concentration but also on ionic composition, due to not equal specific conductivities (but afaik you will likely have better understanding of electrochemistry compared to me ).

The reference values we give for macroelements are dependent on salinity (we dont do that for trace elements seems acceptable ranges are rather broad). In the excel screenshot above only one set of reference values is shown (but all the measurements would have different ones due to changing salinities).

Regarding the salt testing a small sample size might not be very conclusive for a whole bucket or even batch of salt, due to possible inhomogenities.

I hope that was helpful! Let me know if there are further questions!

all the best,
Christoph

Thanks for clarifying Christoph. Can you provide a list of Ideal Values for Main Elements at 35.0 ppt slinity? And is it safe to assume they scale linearly with the resulting salinity measurement?

 

[jda]

Yes, particle settling with sizes or weight. I have indeed found inconsistencies when not using whole batches of any salt. This started way back with the old super-heavy Oceanic salt buckets. TM buckers were bad for me too which I definitely considered settling from a long trip from Europe. IO is no different, IME.

One of my favorite things about Io is the 50g bags mixing into 44g brutes. My new mixing station is marked out at 44 and 88 gallons just for this.

 

[gws3]

Yes, particle settling with sizes or weight. I have indeed found inconsistencies when not using whole batches of any salt. This started way back with the old super-heavy Oceanic salt buckets. TM buckers were bad for me too which I definitely considered settling from a long trip from Europe. IO is no different, IME.

One of my favorite things about Io is the 50g bags mixing into 44g brutes. My new mixing station is marked out at 44 and 88 gallons just for this.

Yes, I mix 45 gallon RODI per bag of IO. So we're pretty close in that regard!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy,

The potassium concentration is very unlikely to be incorrect (above typical measurement error). We measure K with cation chromatography and ICP (OES or MS): Two independent methodologies using also completely independent sets of standards (references). Typically deviation between results of the two methodologies is only ~1%. We do report the IC value, since its even more robust compared to ICP data.

The fact that ion concentration summed up doesnt necessarily equal salinity: The salinity value reported is from a conductometric measurement. When adding ions you see especially errors of chloride and sodium measurement which can be in the 2-3% range (especially for chloride). Furthermore conductivity is not only dependent on total ion concentration but also on ionic composition, due to not equal specific conductivities (but afaik you will likely have better understanding of electrochemistry compared to me ).

The reference values we give for macroelements are dependent on salinity (we dont do that for trace elements seems acceptable ranges are rather broad). In the excel screenshot above only one set of reference values is shown (but all the measurements would have different ones due to changing salinities).

Regarding the salt testing a small sample size might not be very conclusive for a whole bucket or even batch of salt, due to possible inhomogenities.

I hope that was helpful! Let me know if there are further questions!

all the best,
Christoph

Thanks, Christoph.

How did you arrive at that magnesium reference?

 

[Christoph]

Hello Randy,

sure! I am aware that our magnesium setpoint is above the natural concentration - We dont always aim for natural values, also concerning some of the trace element we are having slightly "elevated setpoints". However, those reference values are not carved into stone, and might be adapted with new insights /data/experiences, when this is benefecial.

For magnesium the setpoint can also be lowered, since a fairly broad concentration range is actually working well for a flourishing reef tank.

All the best,
Christoph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hello Randy,

sure! I am aware that our magnesium setpoint is above the natural concentration - We dont always aim for natural values, also concerning some of the trace element we are having slightly "elevated setpoints". However, those reference values are not carved into stone, and might be adapted with new insights /data/experiences, when this is benefecial.

For magnesium the setpoint can also be lowered, since a fairly broad concentration range is actually working well for a flourishing reef tank.

All the best,
Christoph

Great, thanks.

 

[Reefahholic]

No significant precipitate. I mixed a small batch in a 5 gallon bucket for this test sample. I didn't see anything at the bottom when I emptied it. Calcium was low, but Alk was over 9, which I don't consider on the low side, at least not for a salt like IO that's not intended to boost parameters like Reef Crystals.

I just looked back at some notes when I was using regular IO purple box. For several batches mixed to 1.026 via calibrated Milwaukee (which now reads low compared to a TM Hydrometer) I was getting the following numbers on my home test kits:

Alk: 9.5-10.5
Cal 400
Mag 1240-1360

Which who knows how accurate that was.

 

[Reefahholic]

Even if a salt mix is very close to NSW you're still going to have to dose to match consumption of certain elements, so I don't see a few things being low as an issue.

I've always been curious about trace elements and their impact on corals, but have always been skeptical of dosing anything that can't be measured. I'm pretty excited about the ICP-MS testing Oceamo is providing. I plan to start dosing trace elements in a manner aligned pretty closely with the Reef Moonshiners program. I think ICP-MS enables one to do this in a controlled manner.

Bingo!

 

[Reefahholic]

Looking at my ICP-MS test results, the following trace elements also appear to be being consumed: Barium, Iron, Fluorine, Manganese, Nickel, Rubidium (slightly/possibly), and Selenium.

My Cobalt and Vanadium levels are elevated above IO levels. I suspect this is due to the fact I dose Aquavitro Fuel.

You’re hitting the Moonshine target for Cobalt (0.51- 0.8 ug/L). Vanadium can become elevated from too many Ceramic frag plugs among other things. I just pulled a bunch of ceramic plugs out of my sump. I’ll update on the results here soon.

 

[Reefahholic]

the Ideal Value for Main Parameters and Trace Elements is the same across reports, but the Ideal Value for the Main Elements are different between test reports. Perhaps they scale it based on reported salinity?

Correct

 

[Nburg's Reef]

I have had high calcium in my tank and finally got around to testing my fresh batch of IO, and the calcium tested at 500 and the dKH at 8.5... which is where my tank has been which explains why my Ca isn't coming down. I am wondering if I got a bad lot? I bought 3 buckets earlier this year. Trying to decide to write it off as a bad batch vs lack of QC and switching salts. Tank isn't having any major issues really but want to get my Ca down to normal range. Been a IO user since 2008 but now that I have growing acro colonies, don't want to risk salt issues.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

500 ppm calcium is fine.

 

[Nburg's Reef]

500 ppm calcium is fine.

Not to worried about the actual 500 number, but the fact that Ca is higher than instant ocean is supposed to be and the alk is lower, are other major and trace concentrations that I am not testing off?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not to worried about the actual 500 number, but the fact that Ca is higher than instant ocean is supposed to be and the alk is lower, are other major and trace concentrations that I am not testing off?

IMO, inaccurate test results is much more common than a bad batch of salt.

 

[jda]

With any salt, you need to dry mix the powder or use the whole container to really judge how they mix - whole container is best. Settlement is real regardless of what BRS says in their infomercial. 50g bags from the boxs mix up good for me every time for about two decades (maybe more).

 

[Nburg's Reef]

Yeah, not saying IO i bad, but it sounded like there were some others around the winter time that also reported high calcium batches. I use buckets and shake the crap out of them before using as best I can. I guess I will keep testing to see, but it seems like a coincidence that my tank has starting increasing Ca when I started these 3 buckets, my calibrated trident shows 500 ppm, along with my hand test kits which match the trident.