Off Topic Questions For Dana

[Scrubber_steve]

Hi Dana;

I’ve read that you ran a commercial coral farm back in the '90's. You used skimmers & ATS to filter the water.

I have some questions regarding your method of running your systems.

1. Did you do water changes; & if so, synthetic or NSW?

2. Did you dose major – minor – trace elements?

3. Is there any trace elements YOU would recommend?

4. Is the any trace elements you would NOT recommended dosing?

5. Did you feed the corals; if so what type of foods?

6. Did you keep fish in the grow out tanks?

7. Am I asking too many questions???

Cheers

Steve

 

[Dana Riddle]

I'll rely on an aging memory of events almost 20 years ago:
1. We used Instant Ocean, and the owner was adamantly against water changes. The systems eventually began to suffer and I convinced him to make multiple changes to the systems, including a complete water exchange.
2. We dosed Kalkwasser in the top off water, and also used a calcium reactor (with Knop's media.)
3. Adey (Smithsonian reef aquarium) mentioned that iron could be depleted in an algae scrubber system. I would add that. I'm not sold on strontium additions, as I tend to think that it is an accidental substitution for calcium.
4. I like Randy's recommendation - if you can't test for it, don't add it.
5. We added rotifers (fattened up with microalgae.)
6. Yes. These systems were large (~1,500 gallons each) and the fishes (tangs) grew quite large. I don't recall deliberately feeding these fish. Maybe some of the other employees did.
7. Not at all. We used 400 watt Iwasaki daylight metal halide lamps in high bay fixtures (with polycarbonate lenses to attenuate UV radiation.)

Hi Dana;

I’ve read that you ran a commercial coral farm back in the '90's. You used skimmers & ATS to filter the water.

I have some questions regarding your method of running your systems.

1. Did you do water changes; & if so, synthetic or NSW?

2. Did you dose major – minor – trace elements?

3. Is there any trace elements YOU would recommend?

4. Is the any trace elements you would NOT recommended dosing?

5. Did you feed the corals; if so what type of foods?

6. Did you keep fish in the grow out tanks?

7. Am I asking too many questions???

Cheers

Steve

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I'll rely on an aging memory of events almost 20 years ago:
1. We used Instant Ocean, and the owner was adamantly against water changes. The systems eventually began to suffer and I convinced him to make multiple changes to the systems, including a complete water exchange.
2. We dosed Kalkwasser in the top off water, and also used a calcium reactor (with Knop's media.)
3. Adey (Smithsonian reef aquarium) mentioned that iron could be depleted in an algae scrubber system. I would add that. I'm not sold on strontium additions, as I tend to think that it is an accidental substitution for calcium.
4. I like Randy's recommendation - if you can't test for it, don't add it.
5. We added rotifers (fattened up with microalgae.)
6. Yes. These systems were large (~1,500 gallons each) and the fishes (tangs) grew quite large. I don't recall deliberately feeding these fish. Maybe some of the other employees did.
7. Not at all. We used 400 watt Iwasaki daylight metal halide lamps in high bay fixtures (with polycarbonate lenses to attenuate UV radiation.)

Thanks so much for the response Dana.
It seems it was a fairly basic & simple system. Scrubbers & skimmers, calc reactor with Kalkwasser in the top off, with some iron supp.
Interesting lighting in that I believe that the Iwasaki halides were about 6500K. Not blue enough in terms of todays philosophy. One well know commercial grower only uses actinic & blue LED strips.

Can you recall the average turn around time, from fragging - grow out, to selling?
And what was the average mortality rate with the sps, lps & softies based on general groupings?

 

[Dana Riddle]

Thanks so much for the response Dana.
It seems it was a fairly basic & simple system. Scrubbers & skimmers, calc reactor with Kalkwasser in the top off, with some iron supp.
Interesting lighting in that I believe that the Iwasaki halides were about 6500K. Not blue enough in terms of todays philosophy. One well know commercial grower only uses actinic & blue LED strips.

Can you recall the average turn around time, from fragging - grow out, to selling?
And what was the average mortality rate with the sps, lps & softies based on general groupings?

Yes, the 6500K Iwasakis - high Kelvin metal halides were just making their way into the market at the time.
Turnaround depended. In those days, we thought more light was better. We blasted some corals with light well beyond what we now know is the photo-inhibition point. These had great color, but grew slowly. On the other hand, those stony corals (mostly Acroporas) in lower light had OK color but grew like weeds. Obviously we had hit the sweet spot, lighting-wise, with many of these. I wanted to let the fragments encrust their bases before selling but there was pressure from management to sell quickly if there was an order placed. If encrusting was allowed, I believe they would be ready in 30-45 days. We cultured mostly Acroporas, since I had to rely on a 'consultant's' decisions on what we received as brood stock. I began experimenting/fragging some LPS (such as Plerogyra) but there wasn't much of a demand (large 'adult' colonies - bubbles, hammers, torches, etc.) retailed for $40 or so in those days. Also, remember we just didn't have the selection of fantastically colored corals in those days. Steve Tyree was bringing some wonderful corals in, but that was still a West Coast happening - it would take a while for that trend to make it to Tennessee! Soft corals (Sarcophyton, Sinularia) had very good survival rates (>95% is my recollection) while the Acroporas were temperamental (maybe 80%) - we lost a lot of those due to an invasive red turf algae (from the algae scrubber dump buckets) that apparently entered through fragged bare spots.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Yes, the 6500K Iwasakis - high Kelvin metal halides were just making their way into the market at the time.
Turnaround depended. In those days, we thought more light was better. We blasted some corals with light well beyond what we now know is the photo-inhibition point. These had great color, but grew slowly. On the other hand, those stony corals (mostly Acroporas) in lower light had OK color but grew like weeds. Obviously we had hit the sweet spot, lighting-wise, with many of these. I wanted to let the fragments encrust their bases before selling but there was pressure from management to sell quickly if there was an order placed. If encrusting was allowed, I believe they would be ready in 30-45 days. We cultured mostly Acroporas, since I had to rely on a 'consultant's' decisions on what we received as brood stock. I began experimenting/fragging some LPS (such as Plerogyra) but there wasn't much of a demand (large 'adult' colonies - bubbles, hammers, torches, etc.) retailed for $40 or so in those days. Also, remember we just didn't have the selection of fantastically colored corals in those days. Steve Tyree was bringing some wonderful corals in, but that was still a West Coast happening - it would take a while for that trend to make it to Tennessee! Soft corals (Sarcophyton, Sinularia) had very good survival rates (>95% is my recollection) while the Acroporas were temperamental (maybe 80%) - we lost a lot of those due to an invasive red turf algae (from the algae scrubber dump buckets) that apparently entered through fragged bare spots.

Yes, I remember reading that you believe the red turf was Hypnea. Lesson - don't use red Hypnea for aquarium filtration when keeping acropora.

So 6,500K halides, at lower par levels was great for growing acros. Does this convert to tubes & LEDs?
And why is it that some farmers swear by actinic & blue LEDs only? Very confusing.

Reading some articles regarding some systems (Smithsonian, GBR Reef aquarium Townsville) the importance of maintaining calcium & alk wasn't realised until relatively recently (late 1980s I think?).
Considering you were coral farming in the 1990s, when was it that you became aware that these elements needed to be added & maintained in a system growing stoney corals?

 

[Dana Riddle]

Yes, I remember reading that you believe the red turf was Hypnea. Lesson - don't use red Hypnea for aquarium filtration when keeping acropora.

So 6,500K halides, at lower par levels was great for growing acros. Does this convert to tubes & LEDs?
And why is it that some farmers swear by actinic & blue LEDs only? Very confusing.

Reading some articles regarding some systems (Smithsonian, GBR Reef aquarium Townsville) the importance of maintaining calcium & alk wasn't realised until relatively recently (late 1980s I think?).
Considering you were coral farming in the 1990s, when was it that you became aware that these elements needed to be added & maintained in a system growing stoney corals?

Good question on light quality of various lamps and conversion to PUR. I'm currently working on a project that will examine that aspect. Spectral quality must be analyzed, interpolated to 1 nm increments and then compared to absorption quality of zooxanthellae. I hope to have initial results in a few weeks, but then there are always glitches that have to be worked out.
As far as metals, I had been researching the subject for a while and wrote these articles:
Riddle, D., 1994. Coral nutrition, Part III: Calcium and biomineralization.. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(6):80-92.
Riddle, D., 1994 . Coral nutrition. Part IV: Metals and minerals. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(7):66-76.
Riddle, D., 1994. Coral nutrition, Part V: Trace elements and the reef tank. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(8):40-58.

If I recall correctly, it took about 18 months to get these articles in print, so I'm thinking I became aware of the importance of magnesium in or about 1992. Of course, Wilkens had published his stony coral book in 1990 (stressed importance of Kalkwasser) and Sprung was discussing strontium so I was aware of that at least by then and possibly sooner - Thiel was selling supplements in the late 80's I think (?). Marubini had a paper published concerning alkalinity and growth. Don't recall the date. I doing this from memory at 12:30 am, so I hope I have the dates right.

You remembered the Hypnea reference - your memory is better than mine!

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Good question on light quality of various lamps and conversion to PUR. I'm currently working on a project that will examine that aspect. Spectral quality must be analyzed, interpolated to 1 nm increments and then compared to absorption quality of zooxanthellae. I hope to have initial results in a few weeks, but then there are always glitches that have to be worked out.
As far as metals, I had been researching the subject for a while and wrote these articles:
Riddle, D., 1994. Coral nutrition, Part III: Calcium and biomineralization.. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(6):80-92.
Riddle, D., 1994 . Coral nutrition. Part IV: Metals and minerals. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(7):66-76.
Riddle, D., 1994. Coral nutrition, Part V: Trace elements and the reef tank. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(8):40-58.

If I recall correctly, it took about 18 months to get these articles in print, so I'm thinking I became aware of the importance of magnesium in or about 1992. Of course, Wilkens had published his stony coral book in 1990 (stressed importance of Kalkwasser) and Sprung was discussing strontium so I was aware of that at least by then and possibly sooner - Thiel was selling supplements in the late 80's I think (?). Marubini had a paper published concerning alkalinity and growth. Don't recall the date. I doing this from memory at 12:30 am, so I hope I have the dates right.

You remembered the Hypnea reference - your memory is better than mine!

Good luck with the spectral research.
And thanks for those links.

You remembered the Hypnea reference - your memory is better than mine!

Nah, copy n paste.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Good question on light quality of various lamps and conversion to PUR. I'm currently working on a project that will examine that aspect. Spectral quality must be analyzed, interpolated to 1 nm increments and then compared to absorption quality of zooxanthellae. I hope to have initial results in a few weeks, but then there are always glitches that have to be worked out.
As far as metals, I had been researching the subject for a while and wrote these articles:
Riddle, D., 1994. Coral nutrition, Part III: Calcium and biomineralization.. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(6):80-92.
Riddle, D., 1994 . Coral nutrition. Part IV: Metals and minerals. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(7):66-76.
Riddle, D., 1994. Coral nutrition, Part V: Trace elements and the reef tank. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, 17(8):40-58.

If I recall correctly, it took about 18 months to get these articles in print, so I'm thinking I became aware of the importance of magnesium in or about 1992. Of course, Wilkens had published his stony coral book in 1990 (stressed importance of Kalkwasser) and Sprung was discussing strontium so I was aware of that at least by then and possibly sooner - Thiel was selling supplements in the late 80's I think (?). Marubini had a paper published concerning alkalinity and growth. Don't recall the date. I doing this from memory at 12:30 am, so I hope I have the dates right.

You remembered the Hypnea reference - your memory is better than mine!

Good luck with the spectral research.
And thanks for those links.

You remembered the Hypnea reference - your memory is better than mine!

Nah, copy n paste.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Edit: double post

 

[Dana Riddle]

Like a dream, events are coming back to me about events of over 20 years ago. The lab at the coral farm had a Hach spectrometer that required different light modules in order to perform analyses required. This included nitrate and iron and likely ammonia and nitrite. I recall testing for iodine and strontium with test kits, although we must have tested for magnesium. The calcium/alkalinity rose sharply after addition of the calcium reactors. Forgive me for this piecemeal response. Interns did most of the lab work, and my advancing years make my memory suspect at times.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Like a dream, events are coming back to me about events of over 20 years ago. The lab at the coral farm had a Hach spectrometer that required different light modules in order to perform analyses required. This included nitrate and iron and likely ammonia and nitrite. I recall testing for iodine and strontium with test kits, although we must have tested for magnesium. The calcium/alkalinity rose sharply after addition of the calcium reactors. Forgive me for this piecemeal response. Interns did most of the lab work, and my advancing years make my memory suspect at times.

Yes, i recall you talking about the spike after incorporating the calc reactor.
No damage done if i remember correctly?

 

[Dana Riddle]

Yes, i recall you talking about the spike after incorporating the calc reactor.
No damage done if i remember correctly?

Debatable. The coloration of an Acropora millepora intensified overnight, immediately after the calcium reactor addition. I interpreted this to mean the color was influenced somehow by alkalinity or pH. Others (who weren't there) claimed the coral had bleached. I still think the former.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Debatable. The coloration of an Acropora millepora intensified overnight, immediately after the calcium reactor addition. I interpreted this to mean the color was influenced somehow by alkalinity or pH. Others (who weren't there) claimed the coral had bleached. I still think the former.

I don't understand how Charles Delbeek, or anyone else, could conclude the coral bleached. Bleaching is expelling the zooxanthellae & turning white. You say its color intensified; & the coral didn't die.
I imagine the millepora's color just returned to normal once the alk was lowered, & that was the only effect?

 

[Dana Riddle]

Goodness gracious! You have a memory like a bear trap! Yes, the mille's color did indeed intensify and to this day I don't think it bleached (I would think the color would have been a washed-out pastel if that had been the case.) I can't recall what became of that particular coral - other than it did not die. Wish I had your memory.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Have you any photos of the set up at all Dana?

Would be interesting to look at.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Have you any photos of the set up at all Dana?

Would be interesting to look at.

I'll look through the slides... the owner had a digital camera but it was like 0.5 megapixel and I never used it.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

appreciate it, thanks

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Hi Dana; a question regarding the illumination period for your algae turf scrubber.
What light/dark ratio did you use & why?
What is your opinion running illumination 24/7 indefinately?

I know some algae are saturated after 16 hours & no extra growth is achieved by running the light for longer periods. I also wonder if indefinate 24/7 illumination would stress the algae.
I'm considering fast metabolising algae that have evolved in light/ dark cycles over millennia.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Hi Dana; a question regarding the illumination period for your algae turf scrubber.
What light/dark ratio did you use & why?
What is your opinion running illumination 24/7 indefinately?

I know some algae are saturated after 16 hours & no extra growth is achieved by running the light for longer periods. I also wonder if indefinate 24/7 illumination would stress the algae.
I'm considering fast metabolising algae that have evolved in light/ dark cycles over millennia.

I'm reaching back some 20 years, but I believe the algae scrubbers we used were illuminated for 24 hours a day. I need to find my copy of Ady and Loveland's Dynamic Aquaria - whatever they recommended is what Dr. Clark used. In other studies, 24 hour illumination interrupted reproductive cycles of algae, at least temporarily. In my experience on my personal tank, I illuminated Chaetomorpha 24 hours a day. The issue here is scrubbing of micro-nutrients (such as iron.) If micro-nutrients are added as a supplement, or through feeding of fishes, there aren't any real issues with constant illumination (my personal opinion.)

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I'm reaching back some 20 years, but I believe the algae scrubbers we used were illuminated for 24 hours a day. I need to find my copy of Ady and Loveland's Dynamic Aquaria - whatever they recommended is what Dr. Clark used. In other studies, 24 hour illumination interrupted reproductive cycles of algae, at least temporarily. In my experience on my personal tank, I illuminated Chaetomorpha 24 hours a day. The issue here is scrubbing of micro-nutrients (such as iron.) If micro-nutrients are added as a supplement, or through feeding of fishes, there aren't any real issues with constant illumination (my personal opinion.)

Very interesting.
I've been trying to determin if indefinate 24/7 illumination of ulva on a downflow scrubber screen would fix more carbon, & create more oxygen, as well as remove more in-organic nutrients than, for example, a 16/8 light/dark cycle. Not an easy task trawling through whatever one can find in the literature that is applicable, & then being able to comprehend the information, as a layman.

This paper - Dark respiration in the light and in darkness of three marine macroalgal species grown under ambient and elevated CO2 concentrations
states - Non-photo respiration (non-photo respiratory mitochondrial respiration), which occurs both in the light and in darkness, is vital for growth and survival of plants and plays a critical role in modulating the carbon balance of individual cells and whole-plants. Much of the usable energy (ATP), reducing power (e.g. NADPH and NADH) and carbon skeleton intermediates required for biosynthesis and cellular maintenance are generated by dark respiration in a regular manner.

To paraphrase >>> “it was evident that non-photo respiration during darkness was significantly and consistently higher than non-photo respiration during illumination with all three marine macroalgal species tested - Hizikia fusiformis (phaeophyta), Gracilaria lemaneiformis (Rhodophyta) and Ulva lactuca (Chlorophyta).

How might this information apply in real terms Dana in regards to using 24/7 illumination

Thanks for your feedback.