Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread
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OP
OP
No that would be a record for us. Wonderful brainstorm though, it's never harmful to gather possible approaches. Evaluate multiple viewpoints with that much biology on the line.
On the inverse, I'd offer the tiniest pico reef bed rinsing x1000 as proof of ammonia control. One cannot treat a 12 yr old sps/Lps pico reef any harsher than putting 35% peroxide in it on YouTube videos, draining it and leaving it empty for half an hour (coming soon next rip change if I'll quit procrastinating filming it against a cellphone timer background) and then rinsing the sandbed starch white with super hot tap water with all the corals and rocks sitting on dinner plates. With no dilution, and failure to control cycle points, all that packed coral would die. The most critical sandbed rinse aspect, loss of biofilter/support, always upscales and downscales in modeling we can run before a tankwide event.
Regarding fish, it would be a repeat interval of their transport to your house the day they showed up, that much stress. We'd pre plan stable holding systems for them, away from the live rock.
If I had that much on the line I'd want to consider the fish group, and the system that supports them, separately to be able to work clearly and predictably.
Housing fish away from live rock is key. Never under rinsing, the number one hesitation first time rinsers display (fear of bac loss) is key. Make that sand as clean as snow globe flakes before you put it back, first video shown on page 1.
separate buckets of sand tap water rinsed to infinity, final rinse in saltwater then put back.
Although new water is ideal, nobody says we can't siphon off brute containers of the current water table for put back. I agree it's a big serious job.
the number one risk is kicking up detritus, if applicable, through any type of partial action which we'd easily notice in preparation full tank pics. We look for telltale signs of high detritus live rock; i.e. any tank where Gha covers the rocks for example. Live rock apartment tenants by rule exclude whole waste; algae is a plug. Our order of ops/prep uses test rocks from your system beforehand to check for such sinks, if applicable. We learned from a certain tank restore a while ago that dealing with formerly-plugged rocks is worse than the darkest sandbed. Purging bad rocks is incremental due to porosity, sand rinsing is all at once. incremental actions present the mini cycle event and complete actions prevent it.
One full tank shot reveals much
Dredge testing:
Though I've never held back a substrate dive, we can easily use a siphon airline hose or similar, taped to a dowel, pressed down to the bottom, to get a mud sample to N and P test
Let's see how messy it is in prep, harmless measure so we don't jump until jump time comes. Thank you for posting the consideration.
B
On the inverse, I'd offer the tiniest pico reef bed rinsing x1000 as proof of ammonia control. One cannot treat a 12 yr old sps/Lps pico reef any harsher than putting 35% peroxide in it on YouTube videos, draining it and leaving it empty for half an hour (coming soon next rip change if I'll quit procrastinating filming it against a cellphone timer background) and then rinsing the sandbed starch white with super hot tap water with all the corals and rocks sitting on dinner plates. With no dilution, and failure to control cycle points, all that packed coral would die. The most critical sandbed rinse aspect, loss of biofilter/support, always upscales and downscales in modeling we can run before a tankwide event.
Regarding fish, it would be a repeat interval of their transport to your house the day they showed up, that much stress. We'd pre plan stable holding systems for them, away from the live rock.
If I had that much on the line I'd want to consider the fish group, and the system that supports them, separately to be able to work clearly and predictably.
Housing fish away from live rock is key. Never under rinsing, the number one hesitation first time rinsers display (fear of bac loss) is key. Make that sand as clean as snow globe flakes before you put it back, first video shown on page 1.
separate buckets of sand tap water rinsed to infinity, final rinse in saltwater then put back.
Although new water is ideal, nobody says we can't siphon off brute containers of the current water table for put back. I agree it's a big serious job.
the number one risk is kicking up detritus, if applicable, through any type of partial action which we'd easily notice in preparation full tank pics. We look for telltale signs of high detritus live rock; i.e. any tank where Gha covers the rocks for example. Live rock apartment tenants by rule exclude whole waste; algae is a plug. Our order of ops/prep uses test rocks from your system beforehand to check for such sinks, if applicable. We learned from a certain tank restore a while ago that dealing with formerly-plugged rocks is worse than the darkest sandbed. Purging bad rocks is incremental due to porosity, sand rinsing is all at once. incremental actions present the mini cycle event and complete actions prevent it.
One full tank shot reveals much
Dredge testing:
Though I've never held back a substrate dive, we can easily use a siphon airline hose or similar, taped to a dowel, pressed down to the bottom, to get a mud sample to N and P test
Let's see how messy it is in prep, harmless measure so we don't jump until jump time comes. Thank you for posting the consideration.
B
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cchomistek
Active Member
I believe it is pretty darn messy. I was in the leave your sand bed alone category before but now I think you guys may have me converted as I have siphoned my sandbed a couple time over the last few months as I try to right the ship and the stuff that has come out gave been very brown tea like crap and thus I believe their is alot of waste built up in there.
cchomistek
Active Member
One issue with getting all of the sand out is that we have center overflow where we have made a rock wall out of spray foam and live rock to hide it that will not be able to be removed so not sure on the ability to get every speck of sand out of the tank but with this size of tank I would not think that would be that much of an issue.
Would it just be easier to put all new thoroughly rinsed sand? I have 2 40 lb bags of sand that are ready for use if this would be an option.
Would it just be easier to put all new thoroughly rinsed sand? I have 2 40 lb bags of sand that are ready for use if this would be an option.
OP
OP
Agreed if cost isn't too bad, you are able to get sand grains not exposed to tank phosphate levels.
I used rinsed ocean direct sand when I swapped my bed after nine yrs. that new bed is the one I keep rinsed now
I used rinsed ocean direct sand when I swapped my bed after nine yrs. that new bed is the one I keep rinsed now
cchomistek
Active Member
OK then that is the method I will most likely take. Getting all the fish out may be a struggle but that will probably be the hardest part of the whole ordeal. What should the protocol be if the sand gets stirred up some from removing the fish and rock which it would for certain. My issue is then putting this water back in after the fact as I will probably only have say 60 gallons of water made up.
Also is the best course of action to get all take a power head and blast all of the rocks prior to removing to release any detritus on the rocks first. As the rocks will be my bacteria source to ensure no cycle then.
Thanks
Also is the best course of action to get all take a power head and blast all of the rocks prior to removing to release any detritus on the rocks first. As the rocks will be my bacteria source to ensure no cycle then.
Thanks
OP
OP
We should still wait till a creative solution to that fish catch presents itself. Agreed a mess cloud no good risk
Maybe there's some creative way, I like not taking the risk before someone finds it we can keep planning the other parts.
That live rock if it's not algae covered will be ok with strong rinses, but that's saltwater only. There are no actual animals in your sandbed that you need, so we can handle roughly and the bacteria still survive due to brief overall duration of rinse but the live rock does have animals so it gets good saltwater work. Simply dunking in a bucket of clean saltwater and swishing around both cleans and assesses your detrital loading if you'll use a white bucket for clear view of detritus
Work a test rock beforehand in a bucket, to get a feel of when it stops casting out clouds of its own if any.
We should choose to mini model each event before proceeding it's the only safe order of operations
Pre modeling will indicate in some systems to clean all the live rock first, since it's a slow purge, before doing the bed. Consider what happens when people choose the opposite: slow purge rocks over clean sand... keeps waste in the system, this is the mini cycle approach.
All we're doing is brainstorming every behavior that will make a person put back in the very things they're trying to get out. The rascal detritus is good at hiding.
But reverse that in the case of pent-up rocks, have them detritus free first over time, then in one fell swoop hit the sandbed. Now the rocks leak nothing and they sit on clean.
Maybe there's some creative way, I like not taking the risk before someone finds it we can keep planning the other parts.
That live rock if it's not algae covered will be ok with strong rinses, but that's saltwater only. There are no actual animals in your sandbed that you need, so we can handle roughly and the bacteria still survive due to brief overall duration of rinse but the live rock does have animals so it gets good saltwater work. Simply dunking in a bucket of clean saltwater and swishing around both cleans and assesses your detrital loading if you'll use a white bucket for clear view of detritus
Work a test rock beforehand in a bucket, to get a feel of when it stops casting out clouds of its own if any.
We should choose to mini model each event before proceeding it's the only safe order of operations
Pre modeling will indicate in some systems to clean all the live rock first, since it's a slow purge, before doing the bed. Consider what happens when people choose the opposite: slow purge rocks over clean sand... keeps waste in the system, this is the mini cycle approach.
All we're doing is brainstorming every behavior that will make a person put back in the very things they're trying to get out. The rascal detritus is good at hiding.
But reverse that in the case of pent-up rocks, have them detritus free first over time, then in one fell swoop hit the sandbed. Now the rocks leak nothing and they sit on clean.
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cchomistek
Active Member
Would it not be a suitable option to pull the fish out and place them in a large rubbermaid and allow the tank to settle out over the course of a few hours. Maybe 6 or so and then transfer the majority of the water out and move the rocks.
Also what is the harm of moving a small amount of the cloudy water. Is this due to the cloudiness causing too much of a cycle?
Also what is the harm of moving a small amount of the cloudy water. Is this due to the cloudiness causing too much of a cycle?
OP
OP
Though there is probably room for forgiveness you can see I have to recommend never dealing with sensitives around a cloud because as soon as someone posts a loss they're going to claim the system to be lacking. Where goes the cloud goes the risk but there's some room for forgiveness if they're not sitting there with in it for long periods
Also want to make a side statement about the current trend of adding nutrients such as nitrate and phosphate to battle cyano invasions and other invasions like dinoflagellates (large threads are building where keepers can -add- nutrients to make cyano and dinos go away mostly)
Clearly it's working to some degree and it addresses a lot of the concerns large tankers have because it prevents them from having to take the system apart to clean it, and it fuels biodiversity which is always been the Hallmark goal of reef aquarists. Our sand rinse approach seems barbaric to them
But perhaps a blend exists?
What do we all think is happening to that collective waste which dredge testing reveals, as it sits in the bed being counteracted by the various dosing and competing organisms? it's compiling worse than ever since a newer and even better hands off way is being presented. Hands off is what produces the need for a reliable sand rinse thread.
Notice powerful trends: we are up to 7 pages by excluding detritus not including it, and we're not allowed one fail or the system will be in question. Fairly high bar~
How many fails to control cyano have been posted?
I personally think that proponents of the dosing approach should be running that on top of totally clean systems, non sinks, they're technically leaving out of core detail if they don't address starting on a fresh pallette.
You can run a system just fine by adjusting the nutrients and keeping competing organisms in play. Just as we wouldn't go get our friends sandbed waste to mix into our brand new reef we wouldn't use that dosing mechanism on top of a tank that needs fixing at its core.
Nutrient boosting of nitrate and phosphate specifically goes in line with gfo, ats and clean up crews as we've stated here belong as a preventative system that has been rendered feed of cloudy waste stores... they're not mass exporters. Blast rinsing sure is. I think pairing these two seemingly oppositional systems might be wise.
Also want to make a side statement about the current trend of adding nutrients such as nitrate and phosphate to battle cyano invasions and other invasions like dinoflagellates (large threads are building where keepers can -add- nutrients to make cyano and dinos go away mostly)
Clearly it's working to some degree and it addresses a lot of the concerns large tankers have because it prevents them from having to take the system apart to clean it, and it fuels biodiversity which is always been the Hallmark goal of reef aquarists. Our sand rinse approach seems barbaric to them
But perhaps a blend exists?
What do we all think is happening to that collective waste which dredge testing reveals, as it sits in the bed being counteracted by the various dosing and competing organisms? it's compiling worse than ever since a newer and even better hands off way is being presented. Hands off is what produces the need for a reliable sand rinse thread.
Notice powerful trends: we are up to 7 pages by excluding detritus not including it, and we're not allowed one fail or the system will be in question. Fairly high bar~
How many fails to control cyano have been posted?
I personally think that proponents of the dosing approach should be running that on top of totally clean systems, non sinks, they're technically leaving out of core detail if they don't address starting on a fresh pallette.
You can run a system just fine by adjusting the nutrients and keeping competing organisms in play. Just as we wouldn't go get our friends sandbed waste to mix into our brand new reef we wouldn't use that dosing mechanism on top of a tank that needs fixing at its core.
Nutrient boosting of nitrate and phosphate specifically goes in line with gfo, ats and clean up crews as we've stated here belong as a preventative system that has been rendered feed of cloudy waste stores... they're not mass exporters. Blast rinsing sure is. I think pairing these two seemingly oppositional systems might be wise.
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cchomistek
Active Member
Yes but for some the need to have present nitrates and phosphates is also to get the desired colors that they want from their corals. I know some are using it to battle algae but not all.
OP
OP
Agreed
But it doesn't have to come from sandbed waste, they could just as easily control their nutrients in a bare bottom setup. Dump in more cyclopeeze for example, export the unused portions. It's possible to have super efficient export that keeps your dissolved nutrients low while whole proteins are available in the water and present as living animals such as pods and juvenile organisms for Coral feed
natural reefs are definitely not spiking the nitrate and phosphate that's something aquarists do to make up for poor heterogeneity in the water.
anyway we slice it the detritus is not beneficial and at some point it becomes a tipping point for invaders... as substrate they prefer.
In the end this is really just a big tank cleaning thread and how not to recycle. Something we do within an interval. I like the fact that however someone chooses to run their system long-term really doesn't alter our occasional interval
But it doesn't have to come from sandbed waste, they could just as easily control their nutrients in a bare bottom setup. Dump in more cyclopeeze for example, export the unused portions. It's possible to have super efficient export that keeps your dissolved nutrients low while whole proteins are available in the water and present as living animals such as pods and juvenile organisms for Coral feed
natural reefs are definitely not spiking the nitrate and phosphate that's something aquarists do to make up for poor heterogeneity in the water.
anyway we slice it the detritus is not beneficial and at some point it becomes a tipping point for invaders... as substrate they prefer.
In the end this is really just a big tank cleaning thread and how not to recycle. Something we do within an interval. I like the fact that however someone chooses to run their system long-term really doesn't alter our occasional interval
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cchomistek
Active Member
Now this begs the question being as I will not be able do this on an ongoing basis and this would be a one time event am I just delaying the inevitable and will have this rear its ugly head in a couple more years?? I did read of the one guy lancing his sand with air blasts to keep his sand looking orestine but really over time will he not have the same ussue with the detritus settling to tge bottom and not being able to get rid of it?
cchomistek
Active Member
The one limiting factor to me actually doing this us whether I think I can get most of the sand out of the tank. Being that it is a center overflow and 2 ft deep and 30" wide will make it quite a challenge. Another real problem is how to drain the last 5% of the water. We will have to see whether I really think this is feasible.
cchomistek
Active Member
Tank pics https://imgur.com/gallery/VD0vA
Just an add, I think dosing some beneficial bacteria after the sand rinse helps to minimize the effects of the mini-cycle that follows. In my case, I think dosing Seachem Stability helped lessen the cyano after the sand rinse because the bacteria can now outcompete the cyano with less nutrients available in the cleaner sandbed.
OP
OP
CC
That reef looks awesome, not in distress well done
Whatever you are contemplating, it's before a problem and not in reaction, nice. That sb is small, the cross sectioning via the picture doesn't show heavy depositing. It all looks nice, purple, aged and good.
Siphon it out if you don't want it, put back new in my opinion
Or don't
This weekend your post made me remember what we are doing here is addressing liabilities people like to keep anyway. The reason bare bottoms emerged as an opposing trend to the hands off sandbed is due to neutralizing the negatives that come along with waste storage.
We cover how to neutralize the liability without a cycle or loss...to have the liability at all is optional. Here's ways large tankers continue with a bed, but cleaner
Start again w perfectly rinsed sand and this time no compile...heavy weekly top stirring and rinsing, that which is started clean and kept clean won't clog.
Use active bed turnover animals, gobies for example. Snails and crabs and slow worms add whole waste to the bed, they're too slow to kick it up for mech filtration to catch. Slow contributes to the problem
Increase mechanical circulation to keep detritus in suspension better for eventual filtration catch
Use retail tank digestion, not nitrification, bacteria which reduces detritus particle size and ease of export. Detritus eating liquid bacteria
Long used in lake and river management ecosystem control, certain chemical oxidizers like permanganate and peroxide also play a role here. Not saying they belong in a tank, am saying they're a searchable limnologists tool as lakes have turbidity and detritus problems after forest fires...my beloved bonito lake outside ruidoso New Mexico, for example. That one is too small to dose, they'll just dredge out all detritus with bulldozers then refill.
The larger a tank gets, depending on variables, the more help it may need with specific competition biology in order to reduce work on the keeper. Those who battle invasive dinoflagellates and cyano are making headway using the facilitated competitive mode which is a big help to large tankers with invasion.
Paul B 45 yr old tank, see his unique sandbed design that specifically ejects waste from a bed, not harbors it. See his use of diatom detritus filtering. He's active, hands on, so he has no liability...plus, due to natural waters near him, he's sourcing the best and most refreshed microbial competitions possible, his tank is in strong balance of work and biology. He didn't luck into 45 years.
The liability isn't a sandbed, it's the waste. A sandbed that is fifteen inches deep but kept clean is no more harm than bare glass...the volume and stocking density of an aquarium, its overall accessibility, must be factored when designing sandbeds in the ideal reef aquarium. I'm seeing large tankers, John M Cole included, quit using them in the display for good reason.
I personally will never be without a sandbed, they look reefy. But mines clean, so it doesn't really count as a sandbed it's more like a pristine insoluble grainbed heh.
Xello I agree too those non nitrification dosers are about to takeoff bigtime, there w be dissolvable strips for them, powders and pills. The limnology business has legitimized them as an option decades ago.
That reef looks awesome, not in distress well done
Whatever you are contemplating, it's before a problem and not in reaction, nice. That sb is small, the cross sectioning via the picture doesn't show heavy depositing. It all looks nice, purple, aged and good.
Siphon it out if you don't want it, put back new in my opinion
Or don't
This weekend your post made me remember what we are doing here is addressing liabilities people like to keep anyway. The reason bare bottoms emerged as an opposing trend to the hands off sandbed is due to neutralizing the negatives that come along with waste storage.
We cover how to neutralize the liability without a cycle or loss...to have the liability at all is optional. Here's ways large tankers continue with a bed, but cleaner
Start again w perfectly rinsed sand and this time no compile...heavy weekly top stirring and rinsing, that which is started clean and kept clean won't clog.
Use active bed turnover animals, gobies for example. Snails and crabs and slow worms add whole waste to the bed, they're too slow to kick it up for mech filtration to catch. Slow contributes to the problem
Increase mechanical circulation to keep detritus in suspension better for eventual filtration catch
Use retail tank digestion, not nitrification, bacteria which reduces detritus particle size and ease of export. Detritus eating liquid bacteria
Long used in lake and river management ecosystem control, certain chemical oxidizers like permanganate and peroxide also play a role here. Not saying they belong in a tank, am saying they're a searchable limnologists tool as lakes have turbidity and detritus problems after forest fires...my beloved bonito lake outside ruidoso New Mexico, for example. That one is too small to dose, they'll just dredge out all detritus with bulldozers then refill.
The larger a tank gets, depending on variables, the more help it may need with specific competition biology in order to reduce work on the keeper. Those who battle invasive dinoflagellates and cyano are making headway using the facilitated competitive mode which is a big help to large tankers with invasion.
Paul B 45 yr old tank, see his unique sandbed design that specifically ejects waste from a bed, not harbors it. See his use of diatom detritus filtering. He's active, hands on, so he has no liability...plus, due to natural waters near him, he's sourcing the best and most refreshed microbial competitions possible, his tank is in strong balance of work and biology. He didn't luck into 45 years.
The liability isn't a sandbed, it's the waste. A sandbed that is fifteen inches deep but kept clean is no more harm than bare glass...the volume and stocking density of an aquarium, its overall accessibility, must be factored when designing sandbeds in the ideal reef aquarium. I'm seeing large tankers, John M Cole included, quit using them in the display for good reason.
I personally will never be without a sandbed, they look reefy. But mines clean, so it doesn't really count as a sandbed it's more like a pristine insoluble grainbed heh.
Xello I agree too those non nitrification dosers are about to takeoff bigtime, there w be dissolvable strips for them, powders and pills. The limnology business has legitimized them as an option decades ago.
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cchomistek
Active Member
Thanks @brandon429 for the nice comments. It us coming along now. I just put a new ati hybrid light fixture on the tank yesterday.
I were to suck out the sand do you think i would see any cycke when putting in the new sand based on it not being too deep??
I were to suck out the sand do you think i would see any cycke when putting in the new sand based on it not being too deep??
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