Only Care About Reliability - APEX or GHL

[TheHarold]

Nope! And because of that It's not a real controller IMHO. It could become one at a later date, we will have to see what they add as they go along.

Hydros does have a power bar?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hydros-aquarium-automation-for-everyone.645582/

 

[ichthyoid]

Has anyone seen one of these Unicorns? I have been hearing about it since December.
I have only seen Pictures but have not seen any hands on usage info.

Only the video I posted above.
At least one appears to exist ;)

 

[ReefBeta]

Has anyone seen one of these Unicorns? I have been hearing about it since December.
I have only seen Pictures but have not seen any hands on usage info.

They are not officially released yet, of course you haven't seen one, unless you're among the beta testers. They said to be released this fall. But with this covid thing, good chance it will be delayed.

 

[ichthyoid]

It’s had 1 or 2 delays so far. I imagine it’s likely due to supply chain problems, related to COVID.

 

[KenO]

Those of you who know GHL - What kind of limitations can be set on ca/alk dosing? Can I set a maximum amount, not to be exceeded within 24 hours? Or during a single correction? Is it like max 50ml/hr or day? What are all the possible ways to limit it?

Asking as I fear overdoses. Ty again for lively discussion.

I now use a CAL Rx, so I don’t use the dosing pumps for 2 part. With the newest firmware 7.24 which includes support for the ION Director, I believe you can do dosing based on ALK (KHD and calcium once the ION Director ships).

 

[KenO]

Screen shot showing where you would configure the adaptive control.

 

[reefandreptileautomation]

Thanks. I apologize then. I’m not a YouTube follower or subscriber as you call them. I would still like to see some written outline for these videos.

Yes I try to cater to my subscribers. As it is a reef automation channel I want to give GHL and APex a fair go. Also my channel is more a programming channel then anything so it can be a bit boring at times. I plan to provide a series of tutorial videos for GHL as well after this series is completed. That is why I created this series.

As for the outline I do not think I want to provide that info as that would ruin the fun part. My subscribers waiting for the next one to come and not know what is coming :) I can assure you I have 10 lined up in my head and the 2nd one premieres tomorrow. The 2nd one might be a bit boring as I go over pricing, options, and stuff. Again each episode will be different in nature and provide the viewer a sense of each system so they can make a decision which one to buy. Everyone has their own opinion but this series is not meant for "ME" to provide mine as I give pros and cons of each.

I have both GHL and Neptune assisting me with the video line up so I do not make mistakes in explaining as well. I want to be fair to both parties.

 

[LadyTang2]

If your sump and controller brain is in another room far from the tank and you'd like a apex or ghl powerbar above the tank say for the lights, is there a way to connect to the brain wireless or must all the powerbars and other stuff be plugged into the brain meaning you cant do a long run between rooms.

 

[robbyg]

If your sump and controller brain is in another room far from the tank and you'd like a apex or ghl powerbar above the tank say for the lights, is there a way to connect to the brain wireless or must all the powerbars and other stuff be plugged into the brain meaning you cant do a long run between rooms.

You need a wired connection. You can go longer than the standard cable with custom cables but if it’s a super long run it will not work.

 

[vangvace]

If your sump and controller brain is in another room far from the tank and you'd like a apex or ghl powerbar above the tank say for the lights, is there a way to connect to the brain wireless or must all the powerbars and other stuff be plugged into the brain meaning you cant do a long run between rooms.

GHL can be ~100 meters away as the cable runs and still be linked. I cannot remember the Apex distance but you would be looking for USB A to A cables without a repeater in the cable.

The way both are designed means that the brain could be the only long distance run in the system.... Say in the case of a sump in the basement tied to a living room display tank.

 

[User1]

Deionized water is electrically non-conductive, though it is highly corrosive to most metals. If dried quickly you should be good, as there is no residue.

People often find the insulation factor of pure water to be unbelievable. Back in the day, we sometimes used to insulate submerged high voltage components with it.

So....I dropped one of my DIY multi channel LED arrays, with the fan, into my display tank. Hate to admit it but I did. My daughter saw, grabbed the latter, reached in (tank is 30" tall), pulled it out, mumbled something not so nice to dad under her breath, ran out in the garage, and dunked it in my RO DI water storage brute container. I mean fully dunked it with swishy action and all :) I was like hmm...she said it will clean it up. She then fired up the air compressor, told me to get some rags, and cleaned it up all nice. Still works to this day.

To your point - deionized water is pretty interesting stuff so I believe you :)

 

[mitch91175]

I am an APEX user for over 5 years and I have never experienced a failure. From my research Neptune has better software but GHL has better hardware. I am not a fan of having Neptune or GHL Everything.

All I want a controller to do is notify me if there is a problem. Because of this hardware quality is less important than software as I prefer third party pumps, ATOs, dosing. Most of the complaints I have heard about Neptune products are about AFS, ATK, DOS but I don't even want to use any of these or the GHL equivalents so Neptune wins for me.

Add LDK to that list. Mine has never been functional without the use of a virtual outlet to buffer to false positives.

 

[Servo]

I switched from the old Neptune controller to GHL after the turn of the century. I've had a GHL Profilux 3 for about 20 years and it has never failed. No programing glitches. No reprogramming. No issues after storms power outages etc. The system is completely set and forget. I did upgrade to a 4 to add the KHD recently and have never had any issues over the past year. There are probably 100X more APEX users vs GHL users in the US, so you would expect a selection bias to your poll given the results, I think you have a solid answer to your question.

 

[robbyg]

I switched from the old Neptune controller to GHL after the turn of the century. I've had a GHL Profilux 3 for about 20 years and it has never failed. No programing glitches. No reprogramming. No issues after storms power outages etc. The system is completely set and forget. I did upgrade to a 4 to add the KHD recently and have never had any issues over the past year. There are probably 100X more APEX users vs GHL users in the US, so you would expect a selection bias to your poll given the results, I think you have a solid answer to your question.

Congrats! My Aquatronica is still using 99% of the original parts after 15 years. Only regular pH and ORP probes replacements and I upgraded the Head unit to the New model in approx 2016.

It has somehow become baked into peoples heads that controllers are devices that you have to be weary of and that they might fail at any given moment. People seem to think it is normal to double check the readings from the probes and they expect that parts will wear out and fail after a few years. You even see people posting that in the last three years they have had only one module die and also a float switch went bad, as if to say this is a good reliability. Really! If the wrong float switch or module goes bad it can be the difference between a tank with $10K worth of beautiful corals and fish versus a dead tank.

Somehow setup and the ease of programming which BTW is something you will typically only do once over the lifetime of the controller has now become more important than reliability which is something you need everyday from the controller.

 

[pubwvj]

Correct, there is no built-in surge protection on the EnergyBars, only an overload circuit breaker. My EnergyBar plugs into a UPS backup battery which also provides surge protection. Here's a diagram from my tutorial on Apex Power Monitoring where I provide instructions on integrating the Apex with a UPS to preserve battery life during a power failure:

As drawn this is a bad idea. Both the Apex and the UPS should both be plugged into a single surge suppressor that sits between them and the 20 amp circuit at the wall. Otherwise a surge can come in through the Apex and the to the EB832 and then hit everything else, including your aquarium, fish, coral and you.

A battery back up and surge suppression are both very good ideas. It is all about creating bubbles of protection. Don’t pierce the bubble twice.

 

[BackToTheReef]

Apex for expansion , cost and Great customer support

The expansion question is the one that might be the GHL deal breaker for me. I've read a couple places you can only have a few flow sensors and other items, even with the expansion boxes. Which starts to come into play on big systems more I guess.

Also, not having an autofeeder that works with it stinks. (unless there is one I don't know about) I'd like to try and set up a neat feeding schedule.

 

[vangvace]

The expansion question is the one that might be the GHL deal breaker for me. I've read a couple places you can only have a few flow sensors and other items, even with the expansion boxes. Which starts to come into play on big systems more I guess.

Also, not having an autofeeder that works with it stinks. (unless there is one I don't know about) I'd like to try and set up a neat feeding schedule.

Expansion is weird because Neptune is a 'bunch-of-modules approach with less built in. Nice for less upfront cost, but the nickel and dimes start racking up after a while. Conversely, with GHL you are paying more up front for options you might not use.

Focusing on the P4e out of the box you have:
Control of 6 1-10V devices
Ability to monitor 4 sensors (level, flow, leak)
2 expansion card slots with a variety of probe/sensor/control options.
(I personally went with an additional pH probe and 2 more sensor inputs on a single card)

GHL is developing their own autofeeder, but it is very much on the back burner.

Lastly something to think about is space. You've seen the pretty wall of modules and the stack of dosers with the P4 on top. Do they work spatial for you?

 

[BackToTheReef]

Expansion is weird because Neptune is a 'bunch-of-modules approach with less built in. Nice for less upfront cost, but the nickel and dimes start racking up after a while. Conversely, with GHL you are paying more up front for options you might not use.

Focusing on the P4e out of the box you have:
Control of 6 1-10V devices
Ability to monitor 4 sensors (level, flow, leak)
2 expansion card slots with a variety of probe/sensor/control options.
(I personally went with an additional pH probe and 2 more sensor inputs on a single card)

GHL is developing their own autofeeder, but it is very much on the back burner.

Lastly something to think about is space. You've seen the pretty wall of modules and the stack of dosers with the P4 on top. Do they work spatial for you?

Thanks for the info. How much "extra space" do the expansion boxes provide? If I pull this off the tank is going to be LARGE and there is going to be a ton of stuff to get connected. Definitely more than 4 level/flow/leak sensors for sure.

As far as space wise it will be in the fish room so I will make/dedicate space for it. I don't need it to look spiffy or anything just clean and organized so I know what is what and can maintain/replace stuff as needed. Dream set up would be the P4 with the kh and ion directors.

 

[vangvace]

Thanks for the info. How much "extra space" do the expansion boxes provide? If I pull this off the tank is going to be LARGE and there is going to be a ton of stuff to get connected. Definitely more than 4 level/flow/leak sensors for sure.

As far as space wise it will be in the fish room so I will make/dedicate space for it. I don't need it to look spiffy or anything just clean and organized so I know what is what and can maintain/replace stuff as needed. Dream set up would be the P4 with the kh and ion directors.

The expansion boxes provide:
the standard 4 probe slots. (temp, ph, sal, ORP)
Control of 4 1-10V devices
4 expansion card slots... so in theory up to 8 sensors from the expansion box and up to 8 sensors on the P4(e)

What I don't know is what the overall limits are for the system and if you can have more than 1 expansion box tied in. @Vinny@GHLUSA can hopefully answer that. I do know that you are limited to 1 KHD and 1 IOND connected to the P4.

I occasionally think about the expansion box for a dedicated mixing station and autowaterchange setup, but that is a ways off for me.

 

[hellsangelbx]

There were some great things and valid concern on all products. Building a new tank build and still don't know where to go with it.