Opinions on controller upgrade. 2016 apex or ghl

[jml1149]

While I can agree with some this, the statement of more apex being out there vs. GHL, is completely false. Apex is USA dominated, while GHL pretty much covers Europe/ Asia.
We dont know numbers, but it is most likely very close, and aside from your LFS user error with the GHL, well, that can be any controller.

Fair enough. My knowledge of the European reef hobby generally amounts to what's posted on here, and whatever Miss Saltwater Tank provided, hah.

 

[ispookie666]

Hi from UK

I do run the older version of Profilux - P3ex
I use it to control my slave dosers (4 +3), temp control (as redundancy for my temp controller), Mitras x2, Sump light, sensors - pH Salinity Redox
Level sensors - optical to control my skimmer, to cut off power when sump water level rises, 2nd one for my Avast Skimmate locker
2 x 6 bay power bars -which control most of the electrics.
Access it via My GHL or via Webserver using ddns

The interface is not very intuitive but once setup, it keeps going.

I also have a Profilux 2 ex which is gathering dust but had been running for 10 yrs.

Apex is used by most reefers here in UK probably because of its ease of use.

 

[jcl123]

Man, tough decision to choose a controller here.

I work in IT, and I think the most difficult thing to do is manage expectations - quality of the product, value, support, reliability. That newer Apex just came out last year right? Not surprising that they are having problems in the first couple years a product is out, and it would also appear that their previous products don't have the stability/reliability problems, not sure if they did when they first came out. Computers and electronics are always going to have issues, that is why I have a job :-) Being in my position, computers have much more failures overall then I think most people are prepared to accept...

I just bought a pair of Kessil AP700's, and I had to call support to get the WiFi working properly, and it ended up being a simple fix and a completely understandable issue. It would have been more difficult for someone less technical than me to fix, even for support to help walk them through it. And now that it is working and I see the app experience, I see what people are talking about, and it is no big deal at all.... but I could easily see someone less technical getting crazy frustrated and jumping on the forums and crapping all over the product. I guess I should probably post my experience on that...

It does scare me to see that there are Apex users who have had crashes or lost livestock due to controller problems. What I am trying to gather from the mass of reviews and information is if, even with the problems, you are better off with it than without it. I have friends who do IT for hospitals... do you want to bet that people have died due to computer problems? Sure have. But hospitals keep using computers, because statistically they can save more people with them than without.

That being said, it sounds like some of these controller companies should offer some kind of redundancy. In my work, I maintain large multi-million dollar data centers full of servers, and everything about them, you can purchase with redundancy if you want to, if you have a need for it. I don't see a product like that in the reef hobby aside from just running two controllers (from the same or different companies), but aside from the cost of that, you can't easily plug all of your equipment into two controllers at the same time. It would be nice if you could have a controller with two control heads. So new firmware comes out, you try it on one, but the redundant one stays several versions behind until the new firmware is considered stable. Or you just get one watching the other in case a some other failure. Then people who need that can buy it, such as those with thousands of dollars in livestock at stake.

I suppose, you could get a full Apex system with all of it's features. Then buy maybe the Jr. version of the GHL to redundantly monitor the most critical features, or even somehow monitor the Apex directly.

I think I am leaning Apex at the moment, because availability of parts, support, and information is big. And the programming does not scare me at all.

-JCL

 

[jml1149]

I have friends who do IT for hospitals... do you want to bet that people have died due to computer problems? Sure have. But hospitals keep using computers, because statistically they can save more people with them than without.

This really resonates. Before I started my engineering career, I was an EMT. Made mistakes, most outcomes ok, but not all. But if nobody was an EMT, nobody would be an ok outcome. Everybody would be screwed. Sorry if really OT but that moved me.

That being said, it sounds like some of these controller companies should offer some kind of redundancy.

I lost my Apex brain (and washing machine) in a lightning storm a couple years ago. All of my heaters have external thermometers so I just plugged them into the wall. I keep a box of cheap timers for lights, so they worked no problem. I manually dosed kalk using graduated cylinders. ATO was manual for a day or so, but it was fine. My AWC via DOS was down, as well as skimmer, but who cares. There are simple level of redundancies that can be acquired for cheap, for any controller.

Any controller is prone to failure, given enough use and time, but we should be prepared to operate without it for a couple of days if need be.

 

[jcl123]

This really resonates. Before I started my engineering career, I was an EMT. Made mistakes, most outcomes ok, but not all. But if nobody was an EMT, nobody would be an ok outcome. Everybody would be screwed. Sorry if really OT but that moved me.

That's OK, I must say I have nothing but respect for what EMT and doctors and everyone does. I was having trouble coming up with a good analogy for that, so I am glad you liked it ;-)

I personally stay out of hospital jobs, I would feel terrible if something happened and I don't trust computers. Some of my friends would be put in scrubs to go in and help a doctor trying to look up a drug interaction with their hands in someone's chest, and the computer wasn't working.... no pressure.

I lost my Apex brain (and washing machine) in a lightning storm a couple years ago. All of my heaters have external thermometers so I just plugged them into the wall. I keep a box of cheap timers for lights, so they worked no problem. I manually dosed kalk using graduated cylinders. ATO was manual for a day or so, but it was fine. My AWC via DOS was down, as well as skimmer, but who cares. There are simple level of redundancies that can be acquired for cheap, for any controller.

Any controller is prone to failure, given enough use and time, but we should be prepared to operate without it for a couple of days if need be.

Hold on a second here....what kind of engineer are you? You didn't have this on a surge protector? I am going to have mine on a GFCI, with ground probes, a good surge protector if not a line conditioner or double-conversion UPS. My other hobby is home theater... yes, I picked two of the most expensive hobbies out there... sigh

That being said, I think your point about "manual" backups is good. I am going to have pumps on the shelf complete with half the unions on them ready to swap in if needed. I was already planning on getting a backup battery for my house to go with my solar panels, so I should be able to survive a power outage of a day or so.

And I think I will setup a service that will "ping" the Apex every few minutes, and send me a text or an e-mail if it does not get a reply. So if it is dead / locked up / etc. I would actually catch that quickly. I wonder if they have watchdog timers in them....

-JCL

 

[jml1149]

Hold on a second here....what kind of engineer are you? You didn't have this on a surge protector?

Would you believe an electrical engineer? No really. I know. I felt like such an idiot. I paid a TON of money for surge protection for my TV & home theatre equipment, but never got around to doing it for the Apex. LESSON LEARNED.

I am going to have mine on a GFCI, with ground probes, a good surge protector if not a line conditioner or double-conversion UPS.

Yes. I have mine on a solid UPS now, its not a pure sine out, but doesn't matter for the electronics that knock it down anyway. I wouldn't run an AC pump off it. This should be standard equipment for every Apex system, period. I don't know how many dollars I have invested in this stuff, but man, I could have lost wayyyy more.

I have my tank circuit on an arc fault breaker, with GFCI outlets attached. Not sure if this is overkill, but oh well. I shocked the heck out of myself once using a cheap glass heater making water on an outlet that was not GFCI protected. Never forget that feeling.

People have such strong opinions about ground probes, and I don't know why. I have two ground probes in my system, one in the DT and one in the sump, just incase the return pump is off for whatever reason. Without the probes, if I take a multimeter from the tank water to the cold water pipe, I measure a not inconsequential voltage. With the probe, I measure zero. The meter doesn't lie. Use the probe.

Even the UPS to provide for controlled restart after a momentary power blip, which I see all the time. This way everything doesn't come online at the same time and cause more electrical heartache.

And I think I will setup a service that will "ping" the Apex every few minutes, and send me a text or an e-mail if it does not get a reply. So if it is dead / locked up / etc. I would actually catch that quickly. I wonder if they have watchdog timers in them....

I was a CS major for just about two quarters (WPI) and then said no way. So this sounds great, lol, but I have no idea how to do it. The Apex now has the heartbeat function, which I think does what you're trying to do. When Heartbeat is active, Fusion pings the Apex every x period of time, and if it doesn't get a response, sends a push notification via iPhone app or text message.

My internet is HORRIBLE. Oh man. I live in CT and recently switched from Verizon to a "local" provider to save some bucks, and it drops out ALL THE TIME. So I get notifications for that.

And then, I lost power at home a couple weeks ago, so I got notifications for that loss of comm as well.

Because the UPS was holding up the Apex brain, and I have it set up to detect loss of power, when power came back, it sent me messages that comm had been reestablished, and that power had been restored.

It's great peace of mind.

 

[Scott.h]

I'm not sure if you have made a decision yet. I'll post my .2 cents.

I have 2 - 2016 apex units, and a jr. I have a few dos units, and some other trick stuff in between. Recently I picked up a ghl 4 head doser. Everything I buy is generally high end across the board in life. I'm a firm believer in "buy once cry once". I was curious, as the ghl line is well known, so I wanted to broaden my horizons. I purchased one for another tank t play with. I'll say that the pump is well built, but it's not as accurate as my dos heads. You can recalibrate it until the sun comes up and it's not as accurate as the stepper motor. Going further..

When I first decided to buy a controller I held off for about a year. I heard rumors of a 150 page manual. I'm not a kid, and the thought of that had me, not only a bit scared, but I figured I wouldn't utilize it like I should be for the money. I'm glad I got over that! Three systems later I utilize it a lot more then I ever thought I would, and have gotten pretty darn used to navigating the system. I would not go back. When first setting it up I ran into a few snags. Apex support logged in a few times and took over my lap top from home and not only confifigured it for me, but showed me as they went.

I say that because if it had not been for some folks here at r2r my ghl doser would have got sent back. The pump build quality is good, but the software absolutely sucks to program. I reached out to tech support- never to get any help. I reached out to the company that I bought it from and still didn't get the issues ironed out. Months later I still can't navigate it without a USB connected to the laptop. It's running off my phone at a minimum. All of my apex systems have been running trouble free, and I keep learning more and more. The accessory equipment and technology Kees coming. Head and shoulders above everyone else, to be frank. Fusion is very self explanatory to navigate and the help support community is abundant. Is there other products out there that work, sure, but I wouldn't change now that I've experienced things.

 

[#1Fellowreefer]

DISCLOSURE: I'm a neptune insider. bias implied

I have the Apex 2016 on my main tank and an Apex Jr on my smaller one. I have a few friends who have the GHL Proflux 3 and one with a 4, and I just really enjoy fusion a lot more than I enjoy the GHL interface I've seen when talking with them. Over the course of the past year, 2 of them left the Proflux 3 for an Apex and the other proflux 3 went to a 4 after getting his wet.:p

If you go searching, you'll find people have bad experiences with any controller, but I've had a total of 3 issues with Neptune Systems products in the almost two years I've had mine. I did get one of the brains with the bad memory, it was fixed in a reasonable amount of time and right the first time. I did a bad thing with programming and had to get some assistance to restore the code, it was fixed right the first time on a Sunday. I got a WAV with a bad mount, that was fixed right the first time. Each time I did opt to place a deposit on a credit card for the advance replacement (that's for issue 1 and 3, issue 2 was resolved with a web ticket and phone call). I'm accustomed to doing this with other devices (keyboards, midi stuff) I have so it doesn't bother me. My friends have all had similar experiences with their GHL devices.

Personally, I think both are fine devices, and one of them will speak to you more than the others. Fusion and its programming get me every time. I like the way the programming lets me see both a graphical and code view of things for stuff like dossing, wave makers, variable speed controllers, lighting, etc. I really enjoy the DEFER and WHEN statements available in Fusion. I'm on the beta of the Fusion software and the IOS app and I really like the way they have listened to the insiders and added features/options we wanted. I also did the ATK preview, and they added the siphon break to the kit after many of us testers needing it. I've seen them first hand react to our suggestion and improve things. I like the pace at which they are moving as well. New devices and features of existing ones are arriving several times a year. That makes me feel like they are pushing the boundaries a bit, and I think their new module the Trident is proof of that. There are many Alk monitors starting to pop up, but not a three in one, and not connected to other controllers yet. They pushed the boundaries beyond the capabilities of their old controllers with that device much to peoples anguish, but I'm glad they are moving forward. I don't have to replace my Apex Jr. It'll do the same job it does today just fine, but I will because I want that Trident.

Also, whichever way you go. Always plan to have a way to keep your tank running manually. Electronics fail and they wait until you get comfortable for it to happen. I've had good experiences with my devices and others have not, same for my friends with GHL. Ultimately we were all okay because we had backup means to keep life happy while our controllers were being fixed. Plan for that, or it will arrange for you to learn the hard way.

Cheers,
Jason

Very very well said and explained, I think this has helped me to make a better decision. Thanks Jason and happy reefing..

 

[dieselkeeper]

Very very well said and explained, I think this has helped me to make a better decision. Thanks Jason and happy reefing..

I was thinking changing controllers. I read this also to help with my decision. Thread is almost 2 years old. Some things could have changed.