Opinions on controller upgrade. 2016 apex or ghl

[JustinFromAL]

I've been a long time (>5 year) user of the Apex line. I did consider GHL when I needed a controller for my office tank but upgraded to the Apex 2016 at home and passed my Apex Classic down. I have had minimal issues, nothing that would have jeopardized livestock.

I can't speak directly to the quality of the GHL products, but from what I've seen they are outstanding. I personally have not had issues with quality of build from Neptune either.

What I can speak to is some of the negativity you see in regards to Neptune support. I work in IT and have a pretty good grasp of what "good customer support" looks like. For me, an IT professional who deals with customer support from a myriad of vendor's, Neptune's support is top notch. I understand the relative size of Neptune's install base and have realistic support expectations. Every time I've submitted a ticket to Neptune's support team I've received a response within 24 hours and if necessary have been able to schedule an appointment for remote assistance within 48 hours in which they resolved the issue and help me to understand what went wrong. To me that's an outstanding customer experience from a company Neptune's size. Some people have a level of expectation that you should be able to pick up the phone and reach a live person who can immediately resolve your issue 24/7. THOSE are the reviews you see and can sometime scare folks off.

TL;DR - If you a 24/48 resolution time is acceptable, don't be concerned about the level of support when you choose your product.

*** Full disclosure, I am an NSI insdier so I do get a bit of a "peek behind the curtain" on how Neptune works. However, if I didn't feel like Neptune's prodcut line was the best fit for my tanks I wouldn't be using them.

 

[iemsparticus]

I've been a long time (>5 year) user of the Apex line. I did consider GHL when I needed a controller for my office tank but upgraded to the Apex 2016 at home and passed my Apex Classic down. I have had minimal issues, nothing that would have jeopardized livestock.

I can't speak directly to the quality of the GHL products, but from what I've seen they are outstanding. I personally have not had issues with quality of build from Neptune either.

What I can speak to is some of the negativity you see in regards to Neptune support. I work in IT and have a pretty good grasp of what "good customer support" looks like. For me, an IT professional who deals with customer support from a myriad of vendor's, Neptune's support is top notch. I understand the relative size of Neptune's install base and have realistic support expectations. Every time I've submitted a ticket to Neptune's support team I've received a response within 24 hours and if necessary have been able to schedule an appointment for remote assistance within 48 hours in which they resolved the issue and help me to understand what went wrong. To me that's an outstanding customer experience from a company Neptune's size. Some people have a level of expectation that you should be able to pick up the phone and reach a live person who can immediately resolve your issue 24/7. THOSE are the reviews you see and can sometime scare folks off.

TL;DR - If you a 24/48 resolution time is acceptable, don't be concerned about the level of support when you choose your product.

*** Full disclosure, I am an NSI insdier so I do get a bit of a "peek behind the curtain" on how Neptune works. However, if I didn't feel like Neptune's prodcut line was the best fit for my tanks I wouldn't be using them.

I agree completely. GHL looks like a great controller... no doubt about it. I just see a ton of negativity towards Apex, and I think it can be a bit over the top.

 

[KJoFan]

I agree completely. GHL looks like a great controller... no doubt about it. I just see a ton of negativity towards Apex, and I think it can be a bit over the top.

I think that's probably just due to number of users. I would guess many more people use Apex vs GHL so bound to have more good AND bad experiences. Though, I do have to say that of the issues I've seen people have with GHL it's usually user error, rather than an inherent problem with the unit itself. But, I'm sure some issues do exist, nothing is perfect.

 

[Kayvon]

Good read. Thanks for all the opinions. Have you considered waiting for the new vertex or eKoral? Vertex is supposed to be out this month. eKoral in a couple of months.

I was on board for a GHL but went with a used rkl to give these others a chance to be released

Good idea waiting for more options. I'd just be wary of being an early adopter.

 

[iemsparticus]

I think that's probably just due to number of users. I would guess many more people use Apex vs GHL so bound to have more good AND bad experiences. Though, I do have to say that of the issues I've seen people have with GHL it's usually user error, rather than an inherent problem with the unit itself. But, I'm sure some issues do exist, nothing is perfect.

I’m sure you are correct... sample size is a huge factor in any of these kinds of conversations.

 

[Jerel]

You asked for an image. There’s not much of a cable management problem as all of the connections are behind the equipment. The only cable you’ll probably see are the PAB cables and cables from sensors.

 

[iemsparticus]

You asked for an image. There’s not much of a cable management problem as all of the connections are behind the equipment. The only cable you’ll probably see are the PAB cables and cables from sensors.

That’s a very clean look my friend... I like it.

 

[mckinleyw]

You asked for an image. There’s not much of a cable management problem as all of the connections are behind the equipment. The only cable you’ll probably see are the PAB cables and cables from sensors.

AWESOME TY

 

[Ranjib]

I've used an Apex for a couple of years. Recently my eb8 burned out. I looked inside and there was the worst soldering job you could imagine. A capacitor literally fell out leading to a mosfet to burn up. I decided right then to switch. The GHL's build quality is far superior. If you're the type of person who buys one thing and expects outlast you then the P4 is for you. One big downside is that the texting/alert feature requires its own module. I never used it on the Apex so it didn't matter to me

wow :-O . These are thru hole components? or SMDs

 

[Kayvon]

wow :-O . These are thru hole components? or SMDs

It's mostly SMD, but the capacitor that fell out was a ceramic disc type. Not sure if those come in SMD form. Also I noticed a lot of blisters in the PCB as if burned by a stray soldering iron. They could've also been caused by the burning components too ;Blackeye

 

[rkpetersen]

Some people have a level of expectation that you should be able to pick up the phone and reach a live person who can immediately resolve your issue 24/7.

I don't think that's a fair assessment, tbh. I think most Apex users are smart enough to know that, for non-emergency situations, submitting a ticket and waiting a bit for a response is perfectly reasonable. The real problem is that this is life support equipment, critical to the well-being of highly valued and valuable fragile animals, and that sometimes the Apex fails in a fashion that I would describe as an emergency or at least an urgent problem. Makes some aquarists panicky or anxious at the very least, especially the first time. For situations like this, it would be nice if there was a way to actually speak or online chat with a person right away, or get a guaranteed callback within an hour, rather than waiting and waiting for a reply. (Perhaps Neptune does already do some sort of triage regarding the order in which tickets are handled.) I personally would be willing to pay for an upgraded support plan, as is common with other tech devices, if only for the greater peace of mind.

Also, if the available online documentation were better, I think Neptune customer service would be less busy. I myself don't call anyone's tech support for anything until I've tried absolutely everything I can find to solve it myself. For example, the one single time I've contacted Neptune, over a serious networking glitch that scrambled all communication between the Apex and my home network, the only piece of information that I needed to get it all up and running again was that the default ip address for the Apex setup network is 172.16.0.1. You won't find that (in this case) critical bit of information anywhere in any official documentation. You might find it online, if you happen to get lucky in your search.

Good idea waiting for more options. I'd just be wary of being an early adopter.

Right. If you like to be on the bleeding edge of new technology, you're going to get cut now and then.

 

[jasonamyers]

DISCLOSURE: I'm a neptune insider. bias implied

I have the Apex 2016 on my main tank and an Apex Jr on my smaller one. I have a few friends who have the GHL Proflux 3 and one with a 4, and I just really enjoy fusion a lot more than I enjoy the GHL interface I've seen when talking with them. Over the course of the past year, 2 of them left the Proflux 3 for an Apex and the other proflux 3 went to a 4 after getting his wet.

If you go searching, you'll find people have bad experiences with any controller, but I've had a total of 3 issues with Neptune Systems products in the almost two years I've had mine. I did get one of the brains with the bad memory, it was fixed in a reasonable amount of time and right the first time. I did a bad thing with programming and had to get some assistance to restore the code, it was fixed right the first time on a Sunday. I got a WAV with a bad mount, that was fixed right the first time. Each time I did opt to place a deposit on a credit card for the advance replacement (that's for issue 1 and 3, issue 2 was resolved with a web ticket and phone call). I'm accustomed to doing this with other devices (keyboards, midi stuff) I have so it doesn't bother me. My friends have all had similar experiences with their GHL devices.

Personally, I think both are fine devices, and one of them will speak to you more than the others. Fusion and its programming get me every time. I like the way the programming lets me see both a graphical and code view of things for stuff like dossing, wave makers, variable speed controllers, lighting, etc. I really enjoy the DEFER and WHEN statements available in Fusion. I'm on the beta of the Fusion software and the IOS app and I really like the way they have listened to the insiders and added features/options we wanted. I also did the ATK preview, and they added the siphon break to the kit after many of us testers needing it. I've seen them first hand react to our suggestion and improve things. I like the pace at which they are moving as well. New devices and features of existing ones are arriving several times a year. That makes me feel like they are pushing the boundaries a bit, and I think their new module the Trident is proof of that. There are many Alk monitors starting to pop up, but not a three in one, and not connected to other controllers yet. They pushed the boundaries beyond the capabilities of their old controllers with that device much to peoples anguish, but I'm glad they are moving forward. I don't have to replace my Apex Jr. It'll do the same job it does today just fine, but I will because I want that Trident.

Also, whichever way you go. Always plan to have a way to keep your tank running manually. Electronics fail and they wait until you get comfortable for it to happen. I've had good experiences with my devices and others have not, same for my friends with GHL. Ultimately we were all okay because we had backup means to keep life happy while our controllers were being fixed. Plan for that, or it will arrange for you to learn the hard way.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[chefjpaul]

Exactly [emoji651]

 

[mckinleyw]

DISCLOSURE: I'm a neptune insider. bias implied

I have the Apex 2016 on my main tank and an Apex Jr on my smaller one. I have a few friends who have the GHL Proflux 3 and one with a 4, and I just really enjoy fusion a lot more than I enjoy the GHL interface I've seen when talking with them. Over the course of the past year, 2 of them left the Proflux 3 for an Apex and the other proflux 3 went to a 4 after getting his wet.

If you go searching, you'll find people have bad experiences with any controller, but I've had a total of 3 issues with Neptune Systems products in the almost two years I've had mine. I did get one of the brains with the bad memory, it was fixed in a reasonable amount of time and right the first time. I did a bad thing with programming and had to get some assistance to restore the code, it was fixed right the first time on a Sunday. I got a WAV with a bad mount, that was fixed right the first time. Each time I did opt to place a deposit on a credit card for the advance replacement (that's for issue 1 and 3, issue 2 was resolved with a web ticket and phone call). I'm accustomed to doing this with other devices (keyboards, midi stuff) I have so it doesn't bother me. My friends have all had similar experiences with their GHL devices.

Personally, I think both are fine devices, and one of them will speak to you more than the others. Fusion and its programming get me every time. I like the way the programming lets me see both a graphical and code view of things for stuff like dossing, wave makers, variable speed controllers, lighting, etc. I really enjoy the DEFER and WHEN statements available in Fusion. I'm on the beta of the Fusion software and the IOS app and I really like the way they have listened to the insiders and added features/options we wanted. I also did the ATK preview, and they added the siphon break to the kit after many of us testers needing it. I've seen them first hand react to our suggestion and improve things. I like the pace at which they are moving as well. New devices and features of existing ones are arriving several times a year. That makes me feel like they are pushing the boundaries a bit, and I think their new module the Trident is proof of that. There are many Alk monitors starting to pop up, but not a three in one, and not connected to other controllers yet. They pushed the boundaries beyond the capabilities of their old controllers with that device much to peoples anguish, but I'm glad they are moving forward. I don't have to replace my Apex Jr. It'll do the same job it does today just fine, but I will because I want that Trident.

Also, whichever way you go. Always plan to have a way to keep your tank running manually. Electronics fail and they wait until you get comfortable for it to happen. I've had good experiences with my devices and others have not, same for my friends with GHL. Ultimately we were all okay because we had backup means to keep life happy while our controllers were being fixed. Plan for that, or it will arrange for you to learn the hard way.

Cheers,
Jason

thanks for input and yes I have back up plans a lot of timers and power strips lol. As I said before I do use the apex classic now and I don't have too many issues with it.

Some time beginning next year I will be doing an upgrade build going from my 50 to a ?120? as of now.

 

[jasonamyers]

Some time beginning next year I will be doing an upgrade build going from my 50 to a ?120? as of now.

That sounds like a fun upgrade, I went from a Red Sea Max E-170 to a Red Sea Reefer 425xl and it's been a blast. I bet yours will be as well! Good luck and I look forward to the build thread!

 

[jml1149]

In my opinion, it's always risky to make assessments of quality based on a few anecdotal bits of evidence from non-verified sources. Also, and this time in my experience locally, there are FAR more Apex systems in the wild than GHL systems, so there are bound to be more reviews period.

I'm an Apex junkie no doubt. Their customer service has always been best in class, the user base to source help from is immense, and I can't imagine running a reef system without it. The MyGHL site can't hold a candle to Fusion, which would be a deal breaker for me.

As an aside, my LFS took a GHL controller in for trade, and set it up (I don't know why every single LFS doesn't have a controller running, even just to monitor and get status alerts). He didn't have the right module for texting or whatever (I don't know how this works), so he didn't get notification that his pump failed, and the tank temps dropped to 55 degF overnight. Huge losses.

 

[chefjpaul]

In my opinion, it's always risky to make assessments of quality based on a few anecdotal bits of evidence from non-verified sources. Also, and this time in my experience locally, there are FAR more Apex systems in the wild than GHL systems, so there are bound to be more reviews period.

I'm an Apex junkie no doubt. Their customer service has always been best in class, the user base to source help from is immense, and I can't imagine running a reef system without it. The MyGHL site can't hold a candle to Fusion, which would be a deal breaker for me.

As an aside, my LFS took a GHL controller in for trade, and set it up (I don't know why every single LFS doesn't have a controller running, even just to monitor and get status alerts). He didn't have the right module for texting or whatever (I don't know how this works), so he didn't get notification that his pump failed, and the tank temps dropped to 55 degF overnight. Huge losses.

While I can agree with some this, the statement of more apex being out there vs. GHL, is completely false. Apex is USA dominated, while GHL pretty much covers Europe/ Asia.
We dont know numbers, but it is most likely very close, and aside from your LFS user error with the GHL, well, that can be any controller.

 

[daelie]

In my opinion, it's always risky to make assessments of quality based on a few anecdotal bits of evidence from non-verified sources. Also, and this time in my experience locally, there are FAR more Apex systems in the wild than GHL systems, so there are bound to be more reviews period.

I'm an Apex junkie no doubt. Their customer service has always been best in class, the user base to source help from is immense, and I can't imagine running a reef system without it. The MyGHL site can't hold a candle to Fusion, which would be a deal breaker for me.

As an aside, my LFS took a GHL controller in for trade, and set it up (I don't know why every single LFS doesn't have a controller running, even just to monitor and get status alerts). He didn't have the right module for texting or whatever (I don't know how this works), so he didn't get notification that his pump failed, and the tank temps dropped to 55 degF overnight. Huge losses.

As most “issues” with ghl that are reported, this LFS knew nothing about the controller and you’re somehow trying to knock the controller for a pump failing? User error vs hardware problems are pretty different. There are plenty of stories of apex just simply not working or shutting down.

You say the customer service is best in class? Have you looked at the most recent brs reviews on Neptune? I’ll assume not.

There are apex brains that have crashed tanks. You don’t see threads and threads about ghl being poorly built.

As for myghl vs fusion, I rarely need to change anything on my controller because it’s actually rock solid. I might boot up myghl once every month or two, so why would the interface need to be pretty? I’d rather have something that isn’t going to fail me and crash my tank.

 

[jml1149]

As most “issues” with ghl that are reported, this LFS knew nothing about the controller and you’re somehow trying to knock the controller for a pump failing?

There are apex brains that have crashed tanks. You don’t see threads and threads about ghl being poorly built.

As for myghl vs fusion, I rarely need to change anything on my controller because it’s actually rock solid. I might boot up myghl once every month or two, so why would the interface need to be pretty? I’d rather have something that isn’t going to fail me and crash my tank.

At least you agree the MyGHL interface is terrible. It's barely usable.

 

[Jerel]

I don't see how MyGHL is terrible, does just about everything as GHL Control Center.