Organo-MS - results and evaluations

[EnterName]

If I recall it right from older literature (Sorokin, Coral Reef Ecology?), most or at least much of the organic carbon and organic nitrogen corals produce gets excreted into the water as slime and amino acids. The background may be that corals in coral reefs usually are phosphate limited.

This would be my working hypothesis:

The amino acids you find may or may not reflect some consumption or persistence but rather the excretion by corals. Accordingly I would look whether there is some correlation to the phosphate concentrations:

High phosphate concentrations --> Low concentrations of (certain) amino acids
Low phosphate concentrations --> High concentrations of these amino acids

I would expect this scheme also if the cause for varying concentrations is consumption. Any other nutrient limitation, phosphate or some trace element, may increase excretion and/or slow consumption of amino acids.

I think no such data have been posted yet.

@Dr. Jim ,@WhatCouldGoWrong71 ,@EnterName ,@Marc Pardon,@ReneReef ,@Lasse ,@Randy Holmes-Farley ,@Reginald Reefer III,@KStatefan ,@static416 ,@areefer01 ,@mfollen ,@Christoph

Hans,

Here is your idea in practice. We did not obtain PO4 values for several datasets but I felt we had enough to explore the data. Of the various ways that I have looked at the amino acid data, the “carbon rich” amino acids have an interesting clustering when plotted against PO4 concentration. You’ll note that Lasse’s system has the highest level and seemingly an outlier. Maybe this is a symptom of carbon dosing. “EnterName” data is also outside the group for unknown reasons. “KStatefan” could be in or out of the group (I decided it was in)

You know this already, but I just want to say we are dealing with a small dataset with an interesting grouping which might be caused by chance but it sure is fun to speculate about it.

I think I was dosing very small amounts of carbon during that time (100% Ethanol 1mL/100L tank volume one a week) and have very few fish in the tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Dr. Jim ,@WhatCouldGoWrong71 ,@EnterName ,@Marc Pardon,@ReneReef ,@Lasse ,@Randy Holmes-Farley ,@Reginald Reefer III,@KStatefan ,@static416 ,@areefer01 ,@mfollen ,@Christoph

Hans,

Here is your idea in practice. We did not obtain PO4 values for several datasets but I felt we had enough to explore the data. Of the various ways that I have looked at the amino acid data, the “carbon rich” amino acids have an interesting clustering when plotted against PO4 concentration. You’ll note that Lasse’s system has the highest level and seemingly an outlier. Maybe this is a symptom of carbon dosing. “EnterName” data is also outside the group for unknown reasons. “KStatefan” could be in or out of the group (I decided it was in)

You know this already, but I just want to say we are dealing with a small dataset with an interesting grouping which might be caused by chance but it sure is fun to speculate about it.

I have no idea what (if anything) it means, but I'm happy to not be an outlier in everything. lol

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I actually feel really good that others are in my boat. For you others with me… grab a bucket…

 

[Dan_P]

I think I was dosing very small amounts of carbon during that time (100% Ethanol 1mL/100L tank volume one a week) and have very few fish in the tank.

Interesting! Thanks for the information.

 

[Dan_P]

I have no idea what (if anything) it means, but I'm happy to not be an outlier in everything. lol

I think it might means you will live a long and prosperous life, or maybe it’s your fish that will. All tea leaves at this point.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dr. Jim ,@WhatCouldGoWrong71 ,@EnterName ,@Marc Pardon,@ReneReef ,@Lasse ,@Randy Holmes-Farley ,@Reginald Reefer III,@KStatefan ,@static416 ,@areefer01 ,@mfollen ,@Christoph, @hatfielj

A new set of results added to our database: hatfielj. As usual, there is no diagnosis, only a comparison to the other systems in the database. Currently, I am exploring ways to interpret the differences in amino acid profiles and pool sizes.

The first chart shows how hatfielj contaminant levels compare to other systems in the database. For the ones in common, nothing stands out. Plot number two compares the amino acid pool size (nanomolar rather than microgram per liter). The orange bar represents the total amino acid pool size while the blue bar represents all amino acids except aspartic and glutamic acids. Many systems have a similar size of this amino acid subset. The hatfielj system seems to have elevated aspartic and glutamic acid concentrations. The last plot shows how the hatfielj amino acid profile (“finger print”) in mole percent of the total, compares to the other systems in the database. Many of the amino acids are at the low end.

Someday, maybe, we will be able say more about the amino acid profile.

 

[areefer01]

Thanks. I probably mentioned this earlier but it would be somewhat interesting to see if we can do an overlay of data point (hobbyist result) and their tank age. The only draw back to that as it being a worthless graph is that Oceamo has noted that amino acids are rapidly consumed in reef tanks...

 

[Dan_P]

Thanks. I probably mentioned this earlier but it would be somewhat interesting to see if we can do an overlay of data point (hobbyist result) and their tank age. The only draw back to that as it being a worthless graph is that Oceamo has noted that amino acids are rapidly consumed in reef tanks...

Tank age would definitely be interesting as would what was fed and when before the water sample was taken. There are other factors we could try.

 

[Lasse]

Tank age would definitely be interesting as would what was fed and when before the water sample was taken. There are other factors we could try.

9 years old and only feed I have use is frozen adult brine shrimps and freshwater copepods - last feed was the day before and around 21:00

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

9 years old and only feed I have use is frozen adult brine shrimps and freshwater copepods - last feed was the day before and around 21:00

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks Lasse!

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I stopped dosing Aminos 3-4 months ago. I can’t tell a different by looking at the tank. I’m going to do another one of these tests. It’s been almost a year I think since I did the test. And, I was dosing 2 little fishes and I think Andre’s amino's too. It will be interesting to see the comparison.

 

[Dan_P]

I stopped dosing Aminos 3-4 months ago. I can’t tell a different by looking at the tank. I’m going to do another one of these tests. It’s been almost a year I think since I did the test. And, I was dosing 2 little fishes and I think Andre’s amino's too. It will be interesting to see the comparison.

That is a beautiful aquarium! I almost forgot about amino acids staring at the fish and coral :-)

From the standpoint of amino acid research, a second test is important. On my part, I am obtaining multiple amino acid measurements on experimental systems where everything is controlled. I also upped my game with new data analysis software.

Can’t wait to see your second test results.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

That is a beautiful aquarium! I almost forgot about amino acids staring at the fish and coral :-)

From the standpoint of amino acid research, a second test is important. On my part, I am obtaining multiple amino acid measurements on experimental systems where everything is controlled. I also upped my game with new data analysis software.

Can’t wait to see your second test results.

Yeah, I feed 10x a day 5 on my aF4 and 5 on my Plank. I think with all the frozen my tank is feed, that my tank is benefiting far greater than that. Thanks. And yeah me too. I l’m interested in your feedback on my results.

 

[areefer01]

I stopped dosing Aminos 3-4 months ago. I can’t tell a different by looking at the tank.

Having done something similar I also did not notice anything obvious after stopping. The challenge is what would I change or even look for. My best guess was that maybe I would see a change in coral coloration or maybe tips of Acropora. I didn't see anything at all in relationship to color or the tips (color and growth).

To give a perspective of noticeable change or something I could actually see would be after a water change using Tropic Marin Bio Actif. I would do a 20 gallon water change and the before, and after, was noticeable. I would immediately see polyp extension. Some corals such as a fuzzy lobo (Lobophytum genus) would show bushy, fuzzy, polyp extension. Likewise my Japanese Pink Nepthea would do similar. Both very plush. Oddly enough I did not see that same behavior after switching to Pro Reef salt so maybe that included prebiotic bacterial food that bio actif has works - or my mind is playing tricks on me...

I’m going to do another one of these tests.

I can't see myself doing another test although I admit 3 or 5 data points would be better. ROI on the test just is not worth it to me even with those extra data points.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Having done something similar I also did not notice anything obvious after stopping. The challenge is what would I change or even look for. My best guess was that maybe I would see a change in coral coloration or maybe tips of Acropora. I didn't see anything at all in relationship to color or the tips (color and growth).

To give a perspective of noticeable change or something I could actually see would be after a water change using Tropic Marin Bio Actif. I would do a 20 gallon water change and the before, and after, was noticeable. I would immediately see polyp extension. Some corals such as a fuzzy lobo (Lobophytum genus) would show bushy, fuzzy, polyp extension. Likewise my Japanese Pink Nepthea would do similar. Both very plush. Oddly enough I did not see that same behavior after switching to Pro Reef salt so maybe that included prebiotic bacterial food that bio actif has works - or my mind is playing tricks on me...



I can't see myself doing another test although I admit 3 or 5 data points would be better. ROI on the test just is not worth it to me even with those extra data points.

I don’t mind the negative ROI I will have in a test. My hopes are that it can be demonstrated to stop wasting your money on dosing aminos and doing this test. Feed your tank.

 

[Christoph]

I don’t mind the negative ROI I will have in a test. My hopes are that it can be demonstrated to stop wasting your money on dosing aminos and doing this test. Feed your tank.

Hallo,

id like to add at this point that measurimg amino acids is not the main aim of Organo-MS.

Its about measuring organic contaminants: herbicides, pesticides, plasticisers, hormones, antibiotics, other pharmaceutical residues, etc - that can cause trouble in a tank. This type of testing has not been acessible to the hobbyist previously.

All the best, Christoph