Oxygen while using meds

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    Wanted to start a thread on this, as I've noticed a trend lately of not providing enough gas exchange when using medications in QT. It is extremely important to provide additional oxygen when treating sick fish for a few reasons:
    • Velvet, ich, flukes and other diseases often invade the gills. When this happens excess mucous builds up around the parasites/worms. This is a self defense mechanism triggered by the immune system; however fluid build up around the insertion point(s) in the gills also makes it more difficult for a fish to breathe. :(
    • Most medications deplete oxygen. The more meds you dose, the less oxygen there is available in the water.
    • Mixing meds can also lead to a bacterial bloom (cloudy water). Excess bacteria in the water competes with your sick fish for available oxygen. If a bacterial bloom is severe enough - the cloudier the water is, the worse the bloom is - your fish can literally suffocate to death. :(
    The following steps can be taken to add more available oxygen into the water for your sick fish:
    • Lower water temp down to 74 & SG down to 1.017. There is more dissolved oxygen at lower water temperatures and in lower salinity.
    • Have a powerhead (or two) pointed towards the surface of the water. It doesn't need to be a strong powerhead (you don't wanna blow the fish all around), but just strong enough to create ripples or a disturbance at the top of the water. This draws in more O2.
    • Have the return of your HOB powerfilter create "a waterfall" into the QT. This crashing effect draws more oxygen in. Of course, this and having a powerhead pointed towards the surface will also increase evaporation so be mindful of that. ;)
    • A wide open top is the best way to ensure proper gas exchange is taking place. A sealed lid or cover limits gas exchange. You can always use eggcrate as a top if you have jumpers in QT.
    Below is a video of one of my QTs to illustrate just what I mean:

     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016

  2. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    The above QT contains 3 sick fish: Yellow Tang, Clown Tang and a Heniochus Butterfly. Got them just last night, and all three got a 5 min FW dip + 90 min acriflavine bath prior to being placed in QT.

    The butterfly has visible symptoms of velvet (photo below), while the Clown Tang has flukes (confirmed via FW dip), and the Yellow Tang has a bacterial infection (you can see a little redness remaining around the face.) I've been told by the LFS that all Yellow Tangs with this infection die within a week - I like a challenge. ;)

    So, to treat all three fish together I must combine the following medications: Chloroquine phosphate (for velvet), praziquantel (for flukes), metronidazole (just because), kanamycin & nitrofurazone (antibiotics for the infection). Let's see how I do! :eek:

    [​IMG]

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  3. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    Good luck! This is an interesting mix of problems to deal with all at once. It will be interesting to follow along with :)
     
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  4. TCFletch

    TCFletch Active Member

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    I love how you're showing pictures, telling what's wrong and explaining how you're going to treat the problems. Step by itty bitty step. Many of us will learn from this thread. I know I will. A timeline of events would be very helpful. Please keep us posted. Love this forum.
     
  5. twobytwo

    twobytwo Member

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    Great topic! Do you see any issues using a pump and an air stone at the bottom of the tank to help oxygenate the water?
     
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  6. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    An air pump & stone works fine, it's just that a powerhead is a more effective way of achieving gas exchange. You gotta remember that the tiny air bubbles in the water count for nothing. It's when those air bubbles break the surface (create a ripple) that gas exchange occurs.

    P.S. I added this in at the top:

    • A wide open top is the best way to ensure proper gas exchange is taking place. A sealed lid or cover limits gas exchange. You can always use eggcrate as a top if you have jumpers in QT.
     
  7. TCFletch

    TCFletch Active Member

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    I'm just curious Humble, what do you do with the fish after you cure them? How big is your DT?
     
  8. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    After I cure them, some of the fish still need TLC/fattening up. So my current 150 gal DT has been converted into a "conditioning tank". Once they are ready, I try to find new homes for the fish. But I am very picky about who gets them. And I make a point to only sell them for exactly what I paid. I have a good relationship with several LFS who sell me their sick fish cheap. It's a win-win. The fish gets cured of disease (most of the time) and gets a good home after that. And I continue to learn about how to treat them and sharpen my skills in the process. :)
     
  9. revhtree

    revhtree Owner Administrator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 R2R Secret Santa Cyber Monday Sponsor Article Contributor Sizzling Summer Sponsor Build Thread Contributor

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    This is such great info and really causes people to be more aware and proactive!
     
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  10. TCFletch

    TCFletch Active Member

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    So you're a Fish Doctor! No wonder you have all the answers for sick fish. I think what you're doing is awesome! I've read every thing you've written thus far (I printed all the "stickies" you put together for the booklet I'm making). I vote that this "Oxygen" thread be a sticky too. Thanks for all your patience and guidance with all of us newbies.
     
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  11. smokin'reefer

    smokin'reefer Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    Can you explain the acriflavine bath more? I would be using Reef Rally and was wondering what strength to mix? I'm guessing any tub or bucket with water from dt? 90 min may need heater and/or powerhead?
     
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  12. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award

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    X2 we really appreciate you humble
     
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  13. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    You're very welcome! :)

    When using Rally, dose 3ml (or 2/3 teaspoon) per gallon. Aerate heavily (I use an air stone) and temperature control the water. You can do it in a 5 gallon bucket, or I also will use either a 2.5 or 5 gallon aquarium to do my baths. The next time I perform an acriflavine bath, I will post a video.

    I prefer acriflavine over formalin for the following reasons:
    • Unlike formalin, acriflavine IS NOT a carcinogen. So, it's safer for both you & the fish to use. ;)
    • It is better tolerated than using formalin. You can increase the dosage a little and leave the fish in it a little longer, with no ill effects. 90 mins is how long I usually do the bath for, but you can technically leave the fish in it for days without doing any harm.
    • Acriflavine is effective against "surface parasites" such as velvet & brook, and also has antibacterial properties. So, while its knocking off the parasites it's also helping heal the tiny bite marks inflicted by the parasites and hopefully preventing any of them from getting infected. ;)
    However, I do want to stress that acriflavine is only useful for providing temporary relief. After the bath you want to place the fish in a QT, and treat with either copper or Chloroquine phosphate to finish the job.
     
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  14. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    BTW, all fish are eating now. Clown Tang & butterfly started yesterday, Yellow Tang started today.
     
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  15. atoll

    atoll Valuable Member

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    I never have an issue with anything less and than near to 100% O2 saturation as I use Oxydator's in my tanks. O2 unlike CO2 is not very soluble in water and that is especially so of salt water.

    Quote "The maximum amount of dissolved oxygen a body of water can hold (saturated solution) depends on several factors. Dissolved oxygen solubility is affected by water temperature, atmospheric pressure and salinity. Cold water can dissolve more oxygen than warm water. As the temperature goes up, water releases some of its oxygen into the air. Solubility of dissolved oxygen also decreases as salinity increases. Dissolved oxygen refers to the amount of oxygen contained in water. Oxygen has limited solubility in water usually ranging from 6-14 mg/L. Dissolved oxygen reflect an equilibrium between oxygen producing processes and oxygen consuming processes. An example of an oxygen producing process is photosynthesis; and oxygen consuming process would be aerobic respiration, nitrification, chemical oxidation and aeration. Dissolved oxygen is significant because most aquatic organisms require oxygen in specified concentration ranges for respiration and efficient metabolism. The amount of dissolved oxygen may change during the day as the water begins to warm up. More light penetrating the water causes more photosynthesis to occur. This can also increase the amount of dissolved oxygen.."

    Oxygen levels on the reef crest can exceed 100% saturation due to wave action crashing over the reef. Certain fish like the Achilles Tang needs a high O2 level or it will suffer as they are found at the reef crest where oxygen levels are found at their highest.

    Oxydator's need no electricity, are self regulating and are safe to use at the recommended levels. They are powered by Hydrogen peroxide.

    Common white spot is an area where elevated levels of O2 are of great benefit. The parasite attacks the gills of the fish preventing it from taking in the oxygen it requires and eventually dies of oxygen deficiency, asphyxiation. The spot on the body as most know do not cause death. Using an Oxydator not only provides O2 but also aids the recovery of the fish and in many cases there is no need for medication when an Oxydator is installed. I have not had a noticeable case of WS in the 25 years I have been using Oxydator's and I do not quarantine my fish. I am sure however I have introduced the parasite to my aquariums as I have noticed fish flicking against the rocks and sand but within a few days that stops. Correct and regular feeding IME is also very important in warding off various diseases esp WS and the like. The use of an Oxydator IME is a great tool in prevention and to some extent cure of WS.
    BTW I have no connection to the company what so ever nor do I sell them.

    The range of Oxydator's available designed for aquarium use both in FW and SW. There is a larger version the "W" intended for use in ponds that people use in larger aquaria with equal success.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. TCFletch

    TCFletch Active Member

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    We need an update. How are the fish doing? How big is the QT tank? What and how much did you medicate per each time? Are we on day two or three?Are the fish eating and if so, what are you feeding them? Are they getting along ok with each other?
     
  17. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    Fish are doing good. There is some aggression going on with the Yellow Tang, who wants to be the boss of the tank. And I'm not entirely sure the butterfly is comfortable being housed with two tangs who are a lot more active than he is. ;) QT is a 20 long.

    The fish are eating LRS Reef Frenzy and mysis I soak in Selcon. I haven't tried flake or pellets with them yet. The water is starting to turn a little cloudy from all the meds I am mixing, but the gas exchange I've got going on in there ensures oxygen levels stay good. Here is a list of the meds I've dosed so far:

    Day 1: 5 min FW dip + 90 min acriflavine bath, then transferred into a QT predosed with Chloroquine phosphate @ 60mg/gal. CP treats all external parasites, including velvet (for the butterfly).

    Day 2: Dosed kanamycin (25mg/gal) for the Yellow Tang's infection in the AM. Dosed metronidazole (25mg/gal) and praziquantel (8mg/gal) for the Clown Tang's flukes in the PM. Water starts to turn cloudy.

    Day 3: No meds; I decided against dosing nitrofurazone (another antibiotic) because the YT's infection is already looking better, and I didn't want to risk suppressing the fishes' appetites by dosing more meds.

    Day 4: Dosed kanamycin (25mg/gal) for the Yellow Tang's infection in the AM. Dosed metronidazole (25mg/gal) and praziquantel (8mg/gal) for the Clown Tang's flukes in the PM.

    This is where I'm currently at. I will be dosing prazi & metro again in one week's time to eradicate any "hatchlings" from the fluke eggs. I am on the fence as to whether or not I will be adding nitrofurazone to the mix. Waiting to see how the YT's infection responds to just kanamycin. No other meds are scheduled at this time. :)
     
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  18. Deinonych

    Deinonych Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Curious if anyone has ever measured ORP while administering medications? Would be interesting to see how known oxygen binding compounds like formalin and liquid praziquantel affect ORP, as well as other compounds like the antibiotics we typically use.
     
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  19. CJBuckeyes

    CJBuckeyes Active Member

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    Although straight acriflavine does not contain formalin, it appears that reef rally does have a small amount. From their website "acriflavine + aminoacridine + an activator (miniscule amount of formalin)"

    Humblefish, are you going to repeat the acriflavine dips? I'm going through a CP + prazipro treatment for velvet + black ick. I did a reef rally dip on day 4 (the soonest I could get my hands on it), and all four fish looked remarkably better on day 5. Do recommend continuing to dip?
     
  20. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes, but it is such a tiny amount that is poses no health risk to you or your fish.

    I only do a FW dip and then the acriflavine bath once; CP takes care of the rest (for external parasites). Noga (2000) and Noga & Levy (1995) both reported that a single freshwater dip would remove 80-90% of the parasite. So, the acriflavine bath is primarily useful for healing the small wounds left behind by the feeding trophonts. This combination effectively removes most of the parasites afflicting the fish and also wards off a potential bacterial infection (which can kill just as easily as the parasites.) Its a 1-2 punch that gives the fish a fighting chance once dropped in a QT predosed with CP. :)
     
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