Paltoxins

[SeattleReefer]

Hi everyone, is there any way to check if a zoanthid has a lot of palytoxins? Like any signs I should check for when buying? I know that bigger polyps usually means more toxin but other than that I don’t know much.
Thanks in advance

 

[Submerge]

Following

 

[StartingATank]

Well, pretty much all Zoas have palytoxin, so I would just wear PPE whenever handling them no matter if they produce it or not

 

[BonnieB]

Most zoas sold in the hobby do not have enough toxin to be an issue. However, having said that, wearing goggles, gloves and a mask is always a good precaution when you don’t know what you’re dealing with!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Most zoas sold in the hobby do not have enough toxin to be an issue.

That can’t be said with certainty. Very few have actually been DNA sequenced and even then you can’t be certain what you actually have compared to what may have been tested.

Your advice to treat them all as deadly is the better answer!

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

That can’t be said with certainty. Very few have actually been DNA sequenced and even then you can’t be certain what you actually have compared to what may have been tested.

Your advice to treat them all as deadly is the better answer!

i’m surprised that biologists have not taken some common palys and evaluated them for the toxin.

 

[BeanAnimal]

i’m surprised that biologists have not taken some common palys and evaluated them for the toxin.

There have been some, but you can’t visually verify what you have is what was tested.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

you can’t identify which common zoas carry palytoxin? Or, high amounts of it?

 

[BeanAnimal]

You can’t determine either visually with reliable certainty.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

You can’t determine either visually with reliable certainty.

Sure you can... Just smack the zoa around with your finger tips to get it angry, then touch your eye... If you end up at the ER later, then yes it has Palytoxin. But don't get it confused with a general bacterial infection.
People talk about Zoa palytoxin poisoning all the time (yes I got it once, it sucked). But no one talks about ostreopsis dinoflagellates that carry palytoxin and most people have in there tank at one time or another...

 

[Bruttall]

Palytoxin Poisoning is EXTREMELY RARE!! 171 cases in 14 years. I wouldn't worry to much about it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1382668917302302

 

[BeanAnimal]

Palytoxin Poisoning is EXTREMELY RARE!! 171 cases in 14 years. I wouldn't worry to much about it.

171 medically reported and confirmed cases. Apply any basic statistical model regarding reporting of things like this and the actual number is likely magnitudes higher.

Or, we can misuse a static to irresponsibly tell people to not to worry too much about it.

Palytoxin is literally one of the most deadly substances on earth and it is not a rarity in our corals and it can’t be tested for. Proper precautions should always be advised.

 

[StartingATank]

171 medically reported and confirmed cases. Apply any basic statistical model regarding reporting of things like this and the actual number is likely magnitudes higher.

Or, we can misuse a static to irresponsibly tell people to not to worry too much about it.

Palytoxin is literally one of the most deadly substances on earth and it is not a rarity in our corals and it can’t be tested for. Proper precautions should always be advised.

Agree with always using precautions

 

[VintageReefer]

Hi everyone, is there any way to check if a zoanthid has a lot of palytoxins?

Doesn’t really matter, “a lot” vs “a little” it’s dangerous in any amount.

Like any signs I should check for when buying?

No

I know that bigger polyps usually means more toxin

Not true. While a larger polyp is a larger vessel that can potentially hold more, it doesn’t have any real life generality or correlation. Large polyp Zoa or paly could have barely any, and small polyp ones could be potent. Size is not really an indicator

but other than that I don’t know much.
Thanks in advance

It can’t be tested without going out to a lab. I can tell you in 25 years of reefing I am comfortable fragging and handling Zoa and palythoa bare hand; and washing up good afterwards. You need good discipline to be aware and take conscious steps to avoid subconscious things like rubbing your eyes or face or wear disposable gloves.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

Some facts: about Palytoxin:

1. Recent research indicates that Palytoxin is not created by the Palythoa itself, merely taken up and utilized by it as a defense. It currently appears to be a product of Ostreopsis dinoflagelletes, which are one of the common strains in reef aquariums. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26714047/

2. Palytoxin is not only found in Palythoa. Some species of Palythoa readily take up the toxin and use it in their protective mucus, but it has been identified in many different kinds of corals including zoanthids, leathers, sinularia, lobophyton, gorgonia, favia, and montipora. It has also been found in coralline algae, cyanobacteria, marine sponges, cnidarians, and ascidians (sea squirts). It’s even been found in some seafood: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0041010110004101

3. You can’t easily tell which specimens are safe and which aren’t. Since the toxin isn’t manufactured directly, Palytoxin levels can fluctuate widely in individual coral specimens. This is a huge reason why people get lax, because they’ve “never had a problem before.” If they’re lucky, they never will. Luck plays a much bigger part than common sense, because as discussed below even using common protective measures is often not sufficient.

4. Palytoxin is very hardy and it takes impossibly small amounts to cause illness. As the second most potent biotoxin on the planet, and it’s estimated that only 3 micrograms of palytoxin is all it would take to kill a healthy adult. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6510251/

5. Even experts are vulnerable. Julian Sprung was poisoned when he transferred a rock with Palys from one tank to another. He noticed it felt slimy but thought little of it. He nuked three tanks by the time it was over. He talks about it here, although we know more about it now than when he gave this lecture a decade ago:

6. Deaths are rare, but poisonings aren’t. People have reported getting sick and didn’t realize it was related to their aquarium because they assume only handling Palythoa carelessly can make them sick. Most exposures don’t require hospitalization and mimic other illnesses such as the flu. Since doctors have generally never even heard of it, it’s possible that palytoxin deaths have occurred and been misattributed as heart attacks.

7. Poisoning can cause long-lasting symptoms. In one reported case the victim had to relearn how to talk. Eye exposure can lead to loss of vision. Heart and lung damage are reported. Long term effects in milder exposures really aren’t known because so little research exists.

8. There is no antidote. Treatment is intended to keep you alive until the effects wear off, and may include assistive breathing devices or pacemakers.

9. Palytoxin can be absorbed through the skin, eyes, or mucous membranes. Many people falsely believe that they’re safe as long as they don’t boil rocks or otherwise expose themselves by inhaling it. In fact, in many of the worst cases that have been documented the people used commonly recommended safety procedures. One man was partially blinded despite using safety goggles, gloves, and washing his hands. Another sent his entire household to the hospital when he put a month old sun-dried frag an inch across in a bucket of vinegar to sterilize it. The vapors poisoned everyone inside the 2200 square foot two-story home in a matter of hours, including their pets.

The biggest problem is that people routinely handle and frag Palythoa without having any issues. A small number of people are very cautious but still end up very sick. You could have a polyp which has never been a problem in your tank for years and then on another occasion it may contain enough toxin to poison a preschool. And since the source of the toxin isn’t actually the Palythoa at all, it’s possible to be poisoned by something as simple as a dinoflagellete outbreak. This is likely one reason why inverts and other tank inhabitants die during a dino outbreak.

Someone recently commented on a post here about his experience with Palytoxin: https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/13894958/

 

[BeanAnimal]

6. Deaths are rare, but poisonings aren’t. People have reported getting sick and didn’t realize it was related to their aquarium because they assume only handling Palythoa carelessly can make them sick. Most exposures don’t require hospitalization and mimic other illnesses such as the flu. Since doctors have generally never even heard of it, it’s possible that palytoxin deaths have occurred and been misattributed as heart attacks.

7. Poisoning can cause long-lasting symptoms. In one reported case the victim had to relearn how to talk. Eye exposure can lead to loss of vision. Heart and lung damage are reported. Long term effects in milder exposures really aren’t known because so little research exists.

I don't think that this can be stressed enough. How many people are sickened, or even permanently harmed by substances like this without every understanding the source?

I can tell you in 25 years of reefing I am comfortable fragging and handling Zoa and palythoa bare hand; and washing up good afterwards.

I would submit that you have just been lucky enough to not frag anything that contained the toxin, as it is readily absorbed through skin. Why play Russian roulette with something that has so much potential to be deadly?

 

[VintageReefer]

I don't think that this can be stressed enough. How many people are sickened, or even permanently harmed by substances like this without every understanding the source?



I would submit that you have just been lucky enough to not frag anything that contained the toxin, as it is readily absorbed through skin. Why play Russian roulette with something that has so much potential to be deadly?

I understand the danger, but I don’t think it’s as present as some assume. think of how many people on a daily basis are handling zoanthids. My understanding also is that palytoxin needs to be vaporized and inhaled, or be absorbed through tissue such as eyes and mouth

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

6. Deaths are rare, but poisonings aren’t. People have reported getting sick and didn’t realize it was related to their aquarium because they assume only handling Palythoa carelessly can make them sick. Most exposures don’t require hospitalization and mimic other illnesses such as the flu. Since doctors have generally never even heard of it, it’s possible that palytoxin deaths have occurred and been misattributed as heart attacks.

7. Poisoning can cause long-lasting symptoms. In one reported case the victim had to relearn how to talk. Eye exposure can lead to loss of vision. Heart and lung damage are reported. Long term effects in milder exposures really aren’t known because so little research exists.

I don't think that this can be stressed enough. How many people are sickened, or even permanently harmed by substances like this without every understanding the source?

I can tell you in 25 years of reefing I am comfortable fragging and handling Zoa and palythoa bare hand; and washing up good afterwards.

I would submit that you have just been lucky enough to no frag anything that contained the toxin, as it is readily absorbed through skin. Why play Russian roulette with something that has so much potential to be deadly?

I suppose everyone decides what level of risk they’re comfortable with, I just think people should know what some of the facts are in order to make that decision. If they still decide it’s not worth wearing gloves or washing hands then that’s up to them. Some people don’t wear motorcycle helmets or use seatbelts.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I understand the danger, but I don’t think it’s as present as some assume. think of how many people on a daily basis are handling zoanthids. My understanding also is that palytoxin needs to be vaporized and inhaled, or be absorbed through tissue such as eyes and mouth

Respectfully, I don't think you do understand the danger if you are handling them with bare hands and believe that the only danger is vaporization or mucous membrane contact and backed by the confirmation bias that "everybody does it".

Your understanding is incomplete. While vaporized toxin or direct exposure to the bloodstream or mucous membranes poses extreme danger, that doesn’t negate the risk of skin contact. Palytoxin is also readily absorbed through skin and into the bloodstream. Incidental contact is a real risk, let alone prolonged bare handed handling during fragging.

You’re free to handle them as you like, but dismissing the risk based on perception that is contradictory to the basic facts is irresponsible. Not trying to take a personal shot (at all), but the dismissing the actual danger could easily end up costing somebody dearly who follows the advice to not be overly concerned.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I suppose everyone decides what level of risk they’re comfortable with, I just think people should know what some of the facts are in order to make that decision. If they still decide it’s not worth wearing gloves or washing hands then that’s up to them. Some people don’t wear motorcycle helmets or use seatbelts.

I don't disagree -- but I would urge those who don't wear helmets or seatbelts to refrain from advising other people that there is little risk as long as they are careful.